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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    Given Jinn, all knowing wisdom sharer said his suspicions were rooted in what the GoL said, and the fact that what I'd do in the situation is irrelevant, I fail to see how this addresses my point. Namely that no actually, we have not seen reliable (Oz's word is not reliable) evidence that Oz only started lying cos constant honesty has always cost him and the presumption that is the case is just that, presumption.
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    Nice deflective non-answer. Also, yours is the bigger presumption. Especially since Volume 7 partially vindicated Ozpin's cautious behavior.

    Zam said:
    manipulated into a war even he finds hopeless (cos why else would he lie about the threat and stakes if he didn't think you'd quit upon hearing the truth) that may well have left you injured, traumatized, isolated and with dead loves one's some of which may not have happened had you/they known all the details he kept close to his chest, also hurts.
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    First, Ozpin wasn't the one who brought them into the fold. He didn't even order them to be. Second, what the fuck do you think they were already doing before-hand and planned to do in the future? They're Huntsmen and Huntresses-in-training. Who would've gone on to participate in a job with a well known mortality rate that would have made them targets regardless. They were already part of the war from the moment they were born. Because in case you forgot, all of Remnant is in Salem's crosshairs. You honestly believe they'd be more safe if they were ignorant?

    So spare us that particular line of bullshit.
     
    Given the moment Ozma lost control of his emotions back in V6E2, ("Do you think Leo was the first?!") I tend to think Ozma did at one point let people in on the secrets more than the modern day. He got burned too often, I expect. And strangely enough, by not giving them all the details, he could probably just blame himself instead of them for when they let him down. It was his failings, his mistakes. He recruited the wrong people, asked too much of them. It lets him hate himself instead of them.

    Seriously. Dragging Ozma of all people back from the dead to deal with Salem's bullshit was just plain cruel.
     
    Zurcior said:
    Nice deflective non-answer. Also, yours is the bigger presumption. Especially since Volume 7 partially vindicated Ozpin's cautious behavior.
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    That isn't a none answer, we know why Ozpin did it, Jinn said so, you ignoring that doesn't change canon. My own reactions are also entirely irrelevant so asking me about them serves no purpose. Also no it didn't, we literally have characters being frustrated by continued secret keeping and things getting better the moment the truth is shared.

    Zurcior said:
    First, Ozpin wasn't the one who brought them into the fold. He didn't even order them to be. Second, what the fuck do you think they were already doing before-hand and planned to do in the future? They're Huntsmen and Huntresses-in-training. Who would've gone on to participate in a job with a well known mortality rate that would have made them targets regardless. They were already part of the war from the moment they were born. Because in case you forgot, all of Remnant is in Salem's crosshairs. You honestly believe they'd be more safe if they were ignorant?

    So spare us that particular line of bullshit.
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    I notice you ignored everything I said and also put a bunch of words in my mouth, so I'm not going to be lured into defending a stance I never placed myself in. If you're not capable of addressing the argument I made just say so or don't say anything, don't make up an entirely false argument to tear down then expect me to race to defend it.

    Matrix Dragon said:
    Given the moment Ozma lost control of his emotions back in V6E2, ("Do you think Leo was the first?!") I tend to think Ozma did at one point let people in on the secrets more than the modern day. He got burned too often, I expect. And strangely enough, by not giving them all the details, he could probably just blame himself instead of them for when they let him down. It was his failings, his mistakes. He recruited the wrong people, asked too much of them. It lets him hate himself instead of them.

    Seriously. Dragging Ozma of all people back from the dead to deal with Salem's bullshit was just plain cruel.
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    I'm not arguing he never did that, I have merely noted we've never actually 'seen' it and that Ozma is an unreliable narrator at the best of times. What's more Leo still falls into the category of people he lied to about Salem, the war ETC, so with that in mind, I am unsure he works as an ideal example.
     
    Zam said:
    I'm not arguing he never did that, I have merely noted we've never actually 'seen' it and that Ozma is an unreliable narrator at the best of times. What's more Leo still falls into the category of people he lied to about Salem, the war ETC, so with that in mind, I am unsure he works as an ideal example.
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    I was thinking more of how it seemed to me that Oz was blaming himself more than Leo over Leo turning traitor to Salem.
     
    Rule 3: Be Civil - There are far better ways to disagree with someone than this.
    Zam said:
    If you're not capable of addressing the argument I made just say so or don't say anything, don't make up an entirely false argument to tear down then expect me to race to defend it.
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    Bullshit. The lie you told was saying Ozpin didn't tell Salem the truth because of the GoL, when in reality Oz was wary of both of them because what he saw and what he was told contradicted each other.

    Second, Vol 7 is proof positive that Oz's word is reliable concerning trust because guess what; what Ozpin feared would happened based on past experience, like he said, actually happened. They were betrayed. And by someone who earned the protags trust not an hour ago before by not betraying them the instant he learned the truth.
     
    Zurcior said:
    Bullshit. The lie you told was saying Ozpin didn't tell Salem the truth because of the GoL, when in reality Oz was wary of both of them because what he saw and what he was told contradicted each other.
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    You know accusing me of lying when at best it'd be a mistake makes you come off as needlessly aggressive and belligerent, if you're so confident in your take why not go get the quote from the episode itself and prove me a "Liar" over throwing around insults and accusation?

    Jinn: As Salem and Ozma recounted the events which had brought them back together, each withheld parts of their story. Salem, fearing Ozma would reject her, blamed the end of the world on the gods. Ozma, still unsure of where the truth lay, kept his task and the Relics a secret. Though time passed and all seemed well, Ozma's conversation with the God of Light still lingered in his mind. He had found happiness, but humanity seemed more divided than ever before.

    Zurcior said:
    Second, Vol 7 is proof positive that Oz's word is reliable concerning trust because guess what; what Ozpin feared would happened based on past experience, like he said, actually happened. They were betrayed. And by someone who earned the protags trust not an hour ago before by not betraying them the instant he learned the truth.
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    This is quite literally not what happened.

    For starters V6 already disproves Ozma's take.
    Secondly, Ironwood didn't betray them after he learnt the truth, as in that is literally not what happened and I have no idea how you could accidentally mix up the sequence of events like that. If you recall, after learning the truth he resolved to share it with everyone (Which worked), save Mantle and fight with them; choosing to table the whole "Salem is immortal" thing, to instead "Focus on what is in front of us". His betrayal didn't even tie into that, sure he shouted about it but he also flipped out abot them telling Robyn and the initial shift from happy and calm to freak out mode was rooted in Cinder scaring him with a chess piece making him realize they'd been infiltrated which made him want to dump Mantle and he only betrayed RWBY when they chose not to tall in line and leave a city to die.
     
    Stop: No, we don't do this
  • Staff Post
    • no, we don't do this
    Zurcior said:
    Nice deflective non-answer. Also, yours is the bigger presumption. Especially since Volume 7 partially vindicated Ozpin's cautious behavior.


    First, Ozpin wasn't the one who brought them into the fold. He didn't even order them to be. Second, what the fuck do you think they were already doing before-hand and planned to do in the future? They're Huntsmen and Huntresses-in-training. Who would've gone on to participate in a job with a well known mortality rate that would have made them targets regardless. They were already part of the war from the moment they were born. Because in case you forgot, all of Remnant is in Salem's crosshairs. You honestly believe they'd be more safe if they were ignorant?

    So spare us that particular line of bullshit.
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    Zurcior said:
    Bullshit. The lie you told was saying Ozpin didn't tell Salem the truth because of the GoL, when in reality Oz was wary of both of them because what he saw and what he was told contradicted each other.

    Second, Vol 7 is proof positive that Oz's word is reliable concerning trust because guess what; what Ozpin feared would happened based on past experience, like he said, actually happened. They were betrayed. And by someone who earned the protags trust not an hour ago before by not betraying them the instant he learned the truth.
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    Neither of these okay. You can express disagreement with a person's interpretation without devolving into a slap fight. Take 25 points and a three day threadban for breaking Rule 3: Be Civil.

    Everyone else have a nice day.
     
  • Staff Post
    • I honestly don't understand how anyone could still think Yang is a dumb party girl. Sure she gave off that impression but in Volume 2, maybe even earlier, it became pretty clear that to a certain extent was an act. cause for most of her life until Beacon she basically had to be a parent for Ruby, early on basically Ruby's only parental figure besides maybe Qrow. Yang never got a chance to really just not care about things. But at Beacon Ruby's in charge of the team so why should she worry?

    Volumes 4-6 showed the much smarter and serious side of Yang. Being the first to raise questions not let herself get too drasticated by sillness depending on the situation. She was also plenty angry but justifiably so. She relaxed a good deal for most of Volume 7, because she didn't need to be serious. Routine had set in once more and she could focus on other things, like Blake.
     
    GreatWyrmGold said:
    Okay, apparently RWBY has gone some weird places in the mumble seasons since I've paid attention to it. There are genies?
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    Sort of, Jinn is basically a magical entity who takes her inspiration from the genies but is instead a sort of living, thinking semi-divine Wikipedia who can and will answer 3 questions every 100 years.
    daedalus725 said:
    I personally give yang mechanic Qualitys when I want to in storys I make but any weapon stuff is ruby
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    A fair take and one I lean into as well. Though given all Signal students were meant to design their own weapons I usually do both but with Yang having an added emphasis on mechanics. In The Knights Errant she was the one who kept their airship Stardust running and oversaw repairs, while when discussing a crashed Atlesian cruiser, Ruby was the one who focused on the cannons XD

    Teen Spirit said:
    I honestly don't understand how anyone could still think Yang is a dumb party girl. Sure she gave off that impression but in Volume 2, maybe even earlier, it became pretty clear that to a certain extent was an act. cause for most of her life until Beacon she basically had to be a parent for Ruby, early on basically Ruby's only parental figure besides maybe Qrow. Yang never got a chance to really just not care about things. But at Beacon Ruby's in charge of the team so why should she worry?

    Volumes 4-6 showed the much smarter and serious side of Yang. Being the first to raise questions not let herself get too drasticated by sillness depending on the situation. She was also plenty angry but justifiably so. She relaxed a good deal for most of Volume 7, because she didn't need to be serious. Routine had set in once more and she could focus on other things, like Blake.
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    More or less this, her own trailer makes it clear that one shouldn't judge a book by its cover but that, along with her designing her own weapon, being able to track down an info broker, trying to maturely advise Ruby, getting into Beacon via her schooling and never being shown as not being an attentive student in classes, apparently wasn't enough :/

    Depending on how you mean this I may or may not agree (As I have my issues with how her character was handled in V4 but don't want to get into that debate again) but those volumes definitely did let Yang give a more varied performance and generally be more proactive while she'd been largely reactive and supportive before hand. Also yes, much easier to focus on Blake XD
     
    The reason people think Yang is a dumb party girl is pretty simple, she's blond with big breasts and enjoys having fun when she has a chance. TV has spent our entire lives telling us that people like that are stupid bimbos who coast on sex appeal and don't have any interests beyond socializing. It's hard to unlearn a lifetime of cultural conditioning.
     
    And also the show doesn't actually show her doing anything related to engineering. It's done by implication. As with most things RWBY, we are told that everybody designed and built their own weapons, but not shown it, and Yang's attention to mechanics is largely incidental because RWBY is constantly rushing from point to point with no time devoted to developing much of anything because animation is expensive and we just have to get this story about the mean lady who made everything bad to the end.
     
    RoyalNoises said:
    And also the show doesn't actually show her doing anything related to engineering. It's done by implication. As with most things RWBY, we are told that everybody designed and built their own weapons, but not shown it, and Yang's attention to mechanics is largely incidental because RWBY is constantly rushing from point to point with no time devoted to developing much of anything because animation is expensive and we just have to get this story about the mean lady who made everything bad to the end.
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    How is something done by implication and also told to us? Those are contradictory statements. Either something is implied or it is stated directly. It can not be both.

    Beyond that I always have to ask when people complain about RWBY "rushing", would the show be better if there was a scene where the characters just sat on a workbench building a weapon?
     
    VolantRedX said:
    How is something done by implication and also told to us? Those are contradictory statements. Either something is implied or it is stated directly. It can not be both.
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    Because we are told that everybody builds their own weapons, which implies that they must be engineering geniuses. Rather than RWBY technology just being so flexible that it allows idiot high schoolers to make impossible origami combi-weapons that the best engineers in real life could never manage to make, let alone make effective, because it's a fantasy show where the origins of things are not particularly important with regards to characterization.

    RWBY fans will invent literally any nonsense to try and justify their love of these cardboard cut outs. Yang is not a fucking mechanical genius, because she's not written as one. Some fans inferred something from something the writers didn't think about at all and then spun a tale that made her smarter than she is. Just admit that you like stupid girls. It's fine. They need love too.

    Beyond that I always have to ask when people complain about RWBY "rushing", would the show be better if there was a scene where the characters just sat on a workbench building a weapon?
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    Unironically yes.
     
    RoyalNoises said:
    And also the show doesn't actually show her doing anything related to engineering. It's done by implication. As with most things RWBY, we are told that everybody designed and built their own weapons, but not shown it, and Yang's attention to mechanics is largely incidental because RWBY is constantly rushing from point to point with no time devoted to developing much of anything because animation is expensive and we just have to get this story about the mean lady who made everything bad to the end.
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    I feel that kinda undersell the shows focus to be honest, especially given its themes and the last two volumes. Plus, while it would be nice to see Yang's mechanical skills and other such things, given the world building and exposition actively and verbally established it rather than just implying it, I totally get why they'd opt to focus on other things and rely on their audience to have just paid attention rather than needing to stop the plot and have Yang specifically say it. Oh also we get her reading a mechanics magazine in V6 too if I recall.

    VolantRedX said:
    Beyond that I always have to ask when people complain about RWBY "rushing", would the show be better if there was a scene where the characters just sat on a workbench building a weapon?
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    I certainly wouldn't mind something like that but I also accept that its not strictly necessary and or would need to serve multiple functions. For example, I'd have loved it if Yang helped Blake reforge Gambol Shroud, that'd serve more than one purpose in showing their skills, healing relationship and their outfit/weapon evolution; but it wouldn't mesh with the way the whole scene was shot and framed which was as a sort of montage sequence, so working that in would be awkward at best.

    So yeah, I'd enjoy more casual day in the life stuff, but we get it elsewhere and time is kinda important. Plus I think people over sell the amount of stuff people get in other action oriented shows that aren't monster of the week series. Like if we look at DB, we actually spend very little time with the characters that isn't training, fighting, dying, or travelling on a mission in some way.
     
    Yes, and as a result, we know that the majority of people in Dragonball are meathead martial arts nerds who devote the vast majority of their time and energy to training and fighting, and we are not expected to believe some nonsense tumblr theory that no, Roshi is not secretly a super genius who built his own submarine on an island with a box of scraps.

    The one time that these informed abilities actually do come up is with Yamcha, who is a fantastic baseball player, and wouldn't you know it, he got a slice of life episode showing you that he is in fact very good at baseball.
     
    RoyalNoises said:
    Because we are told that everybody builds their own weapons, which implies that they must be engineering geniuses. Rather than RWBY technology just being so flexible that it allows idiot high schoolers to make impossible origami combi-weapons that the best engineers in real life could never manage to make, let alone make effective, because it's a fantasy show where the origins of things are not particularly important with regards to characterization.
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    Ruby literally explains she had an entire class about weapon manufacturing and that her uncle helped her build her weapons. Like I think the whole "Yang is an engineering genius" is overblown but like the show explains pretty clearly how students in a school devoted entirely to becoming monster hunters know not only how to build weapons (thus likely being able to do field repairs in the Grimm filled wilds) but also points out that it's treated like a right of passage for a student to build their weapons and even get help from others.

    RoyalNoises said:
    RWBY fans will invent literally any nonsense to try and justify their love of these cardboard cut outs. Yang is not a fucking mechanical genius, because she's not written as one. Some fans inferred something from something the writers didn't think about at all and then spun a tale that made her smarter than she is. Just admit that you like stupid girls. It's fine. They need love too.
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    In what way is Yang dumb? Seriously name one time she didn't know something or showed a lack of intellect. She acts rashly at times when she's mad, but like that has nothing to do with intellect. Contrary to popular belief intelligence and emotions are not opposites.

    RoyalNoises said:
    Unironically yes.
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    Why? Most of the quiet moments are focused on the character's relationships with each other or them doing things unrelated to their jobs. I see no reason we need a scene of them building weapons when we already know that they have done so. Then again I'm one of those people who think RWBY only got good when they ditched the whole "monster hunter school" part of the story given that such a concept seems tedious at best.
     
    RoyalNoises said:
    Yes, and as a result, we know that the majority of people in Dragonball are meathead martial arts nerds who devote the vast majority of their time and energy to training and fighting, and we are not expected to believe some nonsense tumblr theory that no, Roshi is not secretly a super genius who built his own submarine on an island with a box of scraps.

    The one time that these informed abilities actually do come up is with Yamcha, who is a fantastic baseball player, and wouldn't you know it, he got a slice of life episode showing you that he is in fact very good at baseball.
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    This is kind of mixing and matching the stuff I brought up so I am unsure how it addresses anything I said but in regards to your Roshi point. Roshi doing that would be unbelievable cos nothing is established to imply he could do that; Yang however has world building established by the character backing her up, so they aren't comparable. We 'know' Yang built her own weapon, there isn't a debate to be had about that unless one wants to ignore stuff established in the show itself.

    I was talking about the original manga where none of that happened.

    Also I gotta ask, all together you've posted here all of once before this conversation and seem to hate the characters and show. What motivated this sudden leap into debate mode and general presence here?

    VolantRedX said:
    Ruby literally explains she had an entire class about weapon manufacturing and that her uncle helped her build her weapons. Like I think the whole "Yang is an engineering genius" is overblown but like the show explains pretty clearly how students in a school devoted entirely to becoming monster hunters know not only how to build weapons (thus likely being able to do field repairs in the Grimm filled wilds) but also points out that it's treated like a right of passage for a student to build their weapons and even get help from others.
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    Wait, sorry, when did Ruby say Qrow helped build it? I know he trained her, but I am unsure that was established as helping her build it.
     
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