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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • devilkingx2 said:
    Being support is lame and boring. It's their character and they can do what they want with him, but I'm never gonna like him if he can't be cool. I'll only ever be annoyed by his current angst or laugh at his patheticness.

    I don't really like the message "well some people are just born inferior and all they can do is serve their betters" tbh. I didn't like it in bleach or Naruto, I've always preferred a DBZ or One Piece approach where you don't need unfair advantages over everyone to make something of yourself. If RWBY wants to go with "you have to be born great, actual merit is irrelevant" then sure, whatever. (Notice that we never see anyone progress or start from the bottom and climb. Everyone is about where they started, and no amount of time experience or training made any real difference. Look at Oscar, in his very first fight he's as strong as everyone else. Look at RWBY, at least 50% of them haven't changed notably in several volumes)

    Meanwhile the cinder thing is like, if he's not going to do anything he shouldn't be fighting her. And he is one of two people with the most beef with cinder... So he accomplishes nothing and gets dunked. Imagine a movie where a guy seeks revenge on his high school bully only to be equally humiliated in adulthood by a bully who has learned nothing and left crying and bleeding on the sidewalk, roll credits.
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    Umm, this might be a bit off topic but one of the main elements of DBZ is that certain characters a born with huge advantages and others can never hope to keep up no matter how hard they work. The Sayins are basically gods in their world and everyone else is basically in the way by the Android saga. Hell by the Freiza fight only Picilo was even in the running.

    Psyga315 said:
    And he also gets his girlfriend stabbed.
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    I don't know why people keep putting that on Jaune he didn't really have anything to do in that situation.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Umm, this might be a bit off topic but one of the main elements of DBZ is that certain characters a born with huge advantages and others can never hope to keep up no matter how hard they work. The Sayins are basically gods in their world and everyone else is basically in the way by the Android saga. Hell by the Freiza fight only Picilo was even in the running.
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    Piccolo*

    Our saiyan protagonist started out weaker than the humans and had to slowly work his way up, alongside many humans and other races who kept up with him or were only 1 step behind

    The series constantly introduces new ways to gain power at increasing heights and speeds that essentially work for anyone, even in the androids saga one of the most impressive feats was tien holding off cell (piccolo and android 17 couldn't impede him, at that point neither could 16)

    An old man in a cave can make an average teenager an apocalyptic threat stronger than the galactic emperor.

    This isn't even getting into DBO where canonically anyone can go super saiyan because all humans have trace saiyan DNA now

    Oh and we gotta put quotes around weak. Even normal humans in DBZ can stomp other entire universes. So even if a human never defeats a main villain if you or I went there, nothing stops us from becoming as strong as krillin/yamcha/tien. (Cut off friezas tail, hold off cell, get mistaken for goku by gero, complimented by super buu, crucial roles on namek/saiyan saga, defeat the ginyu force, etc. For a list of human achievements)

    Simply put, I think you, your OC or your favorite character have a much better chance of achieving some sort of relevance or strength in dragon ball than in many other universes.

    VolantRedX said:
    I don't know why people keep putting that on Jaune he didn't really have anything to do in that situation.
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    I think it's because the writers had him do nothing but antagonize cinder into attacking weiss, no one blames ruby for getting Qrow stabbed because she was equally responsible for him being crippled and running away

    Also jaune missed a point blank attack on an immobilized and weakened opponent, and stabbed with a claymore for some reason.

    Psyga315 said:
    Because technically Pyrrha wasn't Jaune's girlfriend also.
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    I always thought they got together in/by volume 3, pyrrha has multiple love songs about jaune and we know that jaune took her death like he lost the love of his life. They certainly seemed together to me.
     
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    VolantRedX said:
    That's not what he was doing. He was implying that not only is Jaune still carrying a torch for Weiss (which there's no real evidence for) and somehow Jaune thinks they're dating.
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    To be fair I saw a lot of complaining on the RWBY subreddit that the whole thing reeked of white knight

    But volume 6 gives me Lancaster vs. Rose Garden vibes and I'm totally with it tbh
     
    devilkingx2 said:
    To be fair I saw a lot of complaining on the RWBY subreddit that the whole thing reeked of white knight

    But volume 6 gives me Lancaster vs. Rose Garden vibes and I'm totally with it tbh
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    Really? I don't get any sense of shipping from this show in any serious way, beyond like the super obvious relationships, like Eclipse or Ren/Nora. Even BumbleBee is barely above the level of teasing subtext.
     
    Jaune hasn't made unwanted advances on Weiss since the culmination of the dance arc in v2.

    Now overall the Jaune stuff in those volumes was not great at all. But at this point were literally 4 years removed from them, and his characterization past v2 doesn't involve it at all. It was dropped flat

    Again, if it still bothers you and you dont like him for those actions then, fine. But by now were at the point where he has literally, both in RL years and actual screen-time spent more time with the focus of his character being Ruby's biggest supporter and angry at Ozpin for his secrets.

    To try to read his actions through "Acts entitled about Weiss" as of now is flat out so outdated that it doesn't work, it requires actively ignoring 4 seasons total worth of character.

    Whatever, the person making the claim he thinks she is his GF admitted on tumblr to not even watching the show. Its not worth an honest attempt at discussion.

    This is though:

    Lots of neat frame by frame stuff in the fight.

    Tock's mooks do wayyyy more then is obvious at first glance.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Really? I don't get any sense of shipping from this show in any serious way, beyond like the super obvious relationships, like Eclipse or Ren/Nora. Even BumbleBee is barely above the level of teasing subtext.
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    Well no it's definitely not particularly serious or a big deal. RWBY isn't a love story/romcom/teen drama nor an ecchi harem anime so the shipping stuff is most likely always gonna be minor

    Anyone taking it super seriously is probably nuts (though tbh i can imagine yet another "hall of anal devastation" happening no matter what ships they go with. ESPECIALLY if jaune doesn't die alone or if white rose and bumblebee don't happen)

    but at the same time the writers are aware of the ships since at least V2 and intentionally tease them (that's why the RWBY combo attacks are named after ships). So it's not totally nuts to raise an eyebrow when jaune/weiss, ruby/jaune, oscar/ruby, Blake/yang, etc. Get scenes
     
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    devilkingx2 said:
    I've always preferred a DBZ or One Piece approach where you don't need unfair advantages over everyone to make something of yourself.
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    Once again, I can't speak for One Piece since I haven't read/watched it past the early bits, but DBZ literally becomes the Saiyan show where no one else in the main cast can ever surpass them.

    My dislike for him aside, I for one am totally fine with Jaune in a support role. I prefer it to him being the surprise ultimate hero or something else like in the hundreds of fanfics people made about him.
     
    Nidhoggr said:
    Once again, I can't speak for One Piece since I haven't read/watched it past the early bits, but DBZ literally becomes the Saiyan show where no one else in the main cast can ever surpass them.
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    I'd say krillin and/or tien made significant contributions to the saiyan, namek and androids arcs.

    But my point was that based on DBZ mechanics power is something anyone can have, only a few things are gated. The only thing you can't do without being a saiyan is fight the main villain or main heroes.

    In Naruto you basically can't be anyone of importance 99% of the time without lucking into the right clan/village/master/kekkei genkai. In Bleach, lol don't even get me started.

    Relating this back to RWBY, jaune is what you would be if you entered the RWBY universe and enrolled in a huntsman academy. And after a year of training and another year of field work/experience you would be... Battle of Haven jaune. Lol. That's not as bad as bleach or Naruto but... It's getting there.

    Nidhoggr said:
    My dislike for him aside, I for one am totally fine with Jaune in a support role. I prefer it to him being the surprise ultimate hero or something else like in the hundreds of fanfics people made about him.
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    I would've just had Jaune and Ruby duo Cinder at haven tbh.
     
    devilkingx2 said:
    Your bias is showing, you criticize Qrow for saving ironwood's life and somehow think that ironwood's reaction to Qrow was part of some manipulative scheme when the very next thing Qrow says is "I know you didn't do it". If he was trying to intimidate ironwood he would remain silent on the issue and let it be ambiguous.
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    Learn to read. He took the opportunity to deliberately screw with Ironwood, pretending to attack him only to reveal it to be a fake out. Then he says "I know you didn't do it." Sure he's saved ironwood's life. And he did it in the most antagonistic way possible. And it's arguable that if he didn't spend the time pretending to attack Ironwood, the other man would have been able to see the Grimm coming.

    So how about you learn some basic reading comprehension and actually address what I said instead of creating a straw man. Don't think I didn't see your post before the edit, where you mentioned Winter and called her 'my waifu' for some reason even though I never brought her up. Further proof you have no idea what you're talking about.
     
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    thesevenwielder said:
    Learn to read. He took the opportunity to deliberately screw with Ironwood, pretending to attack him only to reveal it to be a fake out. Then he says "I know you didn't do it." Sure he's saved ironwood's life. And he did it in the most antagonistic way possible. And it's arguable that if he didn't spend the time pretending to attack Ironwood, the other man would have been able to see the Grimm coming.
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    1. The scene being framed to trick the audience is not the same thing as Qrow trying to trick ironwood. Mainly because they exist in a fully 3 dimensional world from their perspective rather than only what's on screen existing.

    2. He is alive because Qrow saved him, it doesn't matter how or why when the what is so significant, not that there's anything wrong with taking action rather than saying "look out!!!" Just in time for ironwood to get eaten upon turning around

    3. Considering that ironwood put his full attention on Qrow when he arrived and then the grimm pounced at that opportunity, no I don't think so. Not unless this theoretical ironwood ignores Qrow totally
     
    Renewal said:
    Yup. I'm mostly just pointing that it's probably not something she would've cared about in V3 or earlier when life was carefree and Qrow wasn't in a crisis point all the time, so Qrow's drunkenness would be less of a sticking point, even if the behavior is identical.
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    This. Just as people have mentioned how context is important for whether an action is okay or not, or at least what level of bad it is. Context also informs whether and action can seem okay or not. Qrow's alcoholism was always a problem because uncontrolled addiction is always a problem. But it was a problem that could easily ignored until now. At least for everyone but Qrow.

    Mook said:
    I don't really get what people have against Support classes. Support classes are great.
    Giant In the Playground Games
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    They just never get play of the game. Just like Jaune!

    And that's actually fine. I get the feeling that what RT tried, and failed, to do was the ultimate hero fake out. Jaune grows into a good huntsman, but not the front line leader/hero that he longed to be and motivated him to fake his enrollment.

    The problem was three fold. One, the writing for RWBY has always kind of sucked and only recently managed to fight its way up to mediocre, but is still saddled by the plot and characterization baggage of its first two seasons.

    Two, kind of feeding into that. RT's writers are not great, I like them, but they're not creative giants. On top of that, RWBY is really built on a lot of tropes that they didn't know first hand. And Monty, much as I admired his raw determination, was exercising way too much creative power in a domain he had no experience in and was too busy to develop any knowledge of.

    On top of that he was an obsessive workaholic with very little restraint. Fans may have loved that he threw out mocapped dance scenes at 4 AM. But that came at the cost that he was not sleeping and probably going through some sort of mania.*

    The story beats of RWBY are the literary equivalent of a Monty Oum fight, throw cool shit at the screen and then move on to something else before the viewer realizes how limited it actually is. This was sufficient for the wild west days of youtube content creations where any sort of self made 3D fight choreography was impressive as hell. But it was totally inadequate for a longer production.

    And I think Monty Oum knew this given that he joined RT to get his pet project off the ground.

    Finally, the short, and irregular, episode lengths were also a total disaster from the perspective of plotting and pacing. If RWBY had a consistent 22 minutes, especially in its first two seasons, the Jaun side plot would be remember a lot more charitably. Or at least be easier for people who hated it to forget.


    * I wouldn't be surprise if his lifestyle and manic work patterns didn't contribute to his passing. I know that the cause of death was an allergic reaction but it probably didn't help that he was constantly physically drained.
     
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    So I came across a video of an Adam v Yang WIP that looks like legit Monty/Shane material. Only partly animated obviously, but IMHO M&K should have completed it instead of going with the OHKO. Because it both doesn't chump Yang like canon did while also showing how much of a nightmare at combat Adam was supposed to be. He appears to be moving fast enough to cause literal afterimages, uses his Aura to create extend-o-strikes to wear Yang down, almost look like he's teleporting with how he moves behind Yang. It both elevates Adam into an actual dangerous enemy and not a wuss that relies on cheap shots and Yang gets her own time to shine by not being instantly obliterated by this monster of combat but is still seriously overwhelmed.

    If there wasn't enough screentime to resolve the Fall of Beacon (which there wasn't anyway; look at Silver Eyes ex Machina), they could do like many shows do and have the show end on a cliffhanger, and only resolve it the following season. It's far from unheard of. I used to watch Smallville as it was airing, and nearly every season ended like that; on a cliffhanger that was resolved during the first or second episode of the next season. Cliffhangers aren't iherently bad; yes they were terrible in v5, but that's because they were done badly.
     
    You mind actually showing it to us instead of claiming it exists just to have another casus belli to yell at RoosterTeeth?
     
    Delphisage said:
    You mind actually showing it to us instead of claiming it exists just to have another casus belli to yell at RoosterTeeth?
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    I know you'll dismiss it anyway, but sure. It's attached to a larger post critical of RWBY, so high chance of your jimmies being rustled.





    Now to wait for all the people screaming at me how it doesn't count or something. Whatever the usual dismissive tactics that are employed by the larger SB&SV fandom when I provide evidence.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    So I came across a video of an Adam v Yang WIP that looks like legit Monty/Shane material. Only partly animated obviously, but IMHO M&K should have completed it instead of going with the OHKO. Because it both doesn't chump Yang like canon did while also showing how much of a nightmare at combat Adam was supposed to be. He appears to be moving fast enough to cause literal afterimages, uses his Aura to create extend-o-strikes to wear Yang down, almost look like he's teleporting with how he moves behind Yang. It both elevates Adam into an actual dangerous enemy and not a wuss that relies on cheap shots and Yang gets her own time to shine by not being instantly obliterated by this monster of combat but is still seriously overwhelmed.

    If there wasn't enough screentime to resolve the Fall of Beacon (which there wasn't anyway; look at Silver Eyes ex Machina), they could do like many shows do and have the show end on a cliffhanger, and only resolve it the following season. It's far from unheard of. I used to watch Smallville as it was airing, and nearly every season ended like that; on a cliffhanger that was resolved during the first or second episode of the next season. Cliffhangers aren't iherently bad; yes they were terrible in v5, but that's because they were done badly.
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    I think the reason they wanted to avoid a cliffhanger was that they wanted to have a time skip at the start of the next season and it'd be easier to pull that off without having to do the second half of the Fall of Beacon to start off. Plus the emotional core of the FoB is the sheer amount of loss that the characters go through. Having the major deaths, Yang losing an arm, and team RWBY splitting up being followed next week or the week after with a new episode that carries right on going mutes that response.

    As for Adam, while I don't think his character is given enough credit by people as a dangerous threat it's also not a good thing to make him out to be cool. A character like Adam is ripe for being made into a Draco in Leather Pants by a fandom (just look at Kylo Ren) so giving him too many cool moments risks making him too appealing to the fans. So while Adam is portrayed as dangerous I've yet to see anyone treat him as cool because of it, while I'd be damn certain that if he had a bunch of fight scenes where he just kicked the crap out of people every other fanfic in the RWBY fandom would be about his redemption and hooking up with most of the cast.
     
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