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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • thesevenwielder said:
    *side eyes most YA fiction and anime*

    Riiiight.
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    I mean you could be right that it's just an excuse for fanservice, but given that they've gone out of their way to avoid overt lewdness I feel it gives them too little credit. Hell, the simple answer could be that they wanted Ruby's youth to stand out so they made most of the cast older than her by a few years.
     
    Beacon is really more like a high school that physically takes place at a college. There's a lot of hybrid elements

    High school clases aren't lectures, colleges don't have uniforms, high school doesn't start at 17-18, college doesn't give you mandatory groups you don't have a say in, high schools don't have dorms, etc.

    Zam said:
    If a sixteen year old tries to seduce a twelve year old, that is still incredibly fucked up and wrong.
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    And what if they met/got together at 18 and 14? I saw a bunch of relationships like that when I was in Highschool.

    thesevenwielder said:
    Somehow I get the feeling that the only reason they are 17 is so they could give us fanservice without us giving them the side eye. It's why apparently two years have passed since volume 3 so now it's no longer skeevy for Ruby to have a boob window because she's now 17.

    Even though it's been a problem since volume 4, but what can you do?
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    Talking about fanservice in RWBY is just weird, it's such a ridiculously tame series lol.

    VolantRedX said:
    I mean you could be right that it's just an excuse for fanservice, but given that they've gone out of their way to avoid overt lewdness I feel it gives them too little credit. Hell, the simple answer could be that they wanted Ruby's youth to stand out so they made most of the cast older than her by a few years.
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    The reason is the same as the reason that the show is PG-13, it's a target audience thing.

    If they made everyone 25 and dealing with real world adult issues it would be unrelatable to like 99% of the current fandom. Thus high school drama and fantasy stuff.

    Also adult life is unsuitable for most stories (less free time and smaller groups of friends as well as meeting less people) but that doesn't apply to RWBY because it's a fantasy world.
     
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    Something worth pointing out is that 17 is the ideal age for a Japanese high school protagonist in manga and anime, because in the general sense it's right on the verge of adulthood but without all the accompanying responsibilities of majority, and in the specific because it puts them in the middle year of high school: already established at the school so no immediate burden to do introductions and forming cliques and such, but without the pressures of graduating. For instance, the protagonists of Persona 3 through 5 are all 17, so that they come into a school environment that's relatively stable and they stick out as a newcomer, whereas coming at 16 as a first year would put them in the same boat as all the first years, and coming at 18 just makes the school half of the story rather messy with college entrance exams and such.

    While it's muddled by the fact that they wanted to do a coming to school story and a younger age might be more fitting, I'm sure the sheer commonality of that age of 17 among anime protagonists had some small influence too.
     
    I think Beacon and the other Academies might be better compared to a Tafe than a University or a High school though I would argue it has elements of all three.

    devilkingx2 said:
    And what if they met/got together at 18 and 14? I saw a bunch of relationships like that when I was in Highschool.
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    That is an adult dating a child so illegal and awful.
     
    devilkingx2 said:
    The reason is the same as the reason that the show is PG-13, it's a target audience thing.

    If they made everyone 25 and dealing with real world adult issues it would be unrelatable to like 99% of the current fandom. .
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    Wait, you're telling me that the primary fanbase for this show isn't in their early-to-mid twenties? I thought this show was made for millennials, by millennials. And yes, I realize that the term 'millennial' can cover a wide range of people from their late teens to early 30's, but mostly I'm thinking the mid-twenties range. This show seems geared towards them. That seems to be the primary fanbase as far as I can tell. Dealing with real world adult issues is pretty damn relatable. Am I wrong?



    Unrelated, but according to certain fans calling out someone for their bad decisions is "screaming like a child." Which is pretty telling about the fans in question, that they equate any and all criticism, no matter how valid, to childish whining.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Wait, you're telling me that the primary fanbase for this show isn't in their early-to-mid twenties? I thought this show was made for millennials, by millennials. And yes, I realize that the term 'millennial' can cover a wide range of people from their late teens to early 30's, but mostly I'm thinking the mid-twenties range. This show seems geared towards them. That seems to be the primary fanbase as far as I can tell. Dealing with real world adult issues is pretty damn relatable. Am I wrong?
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    I don't know to me it seems like the show has always been aimed at high school-aged fans. Certainly, older people watch it, but everything from the toned down language to the lack of overt blood and gore screams that the show was intended for teenagers. Most notably when they show the season opener in theaters, which they've done in the area around where I live, the crowds they show are mostly made up of teen girls. Like this show feels perfectly aimed for high school anime clubs vs adult nerds.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Wait, you're telling me that the primary fanbase for this show isn't in their early-to-mid twenties? I thought this show was made for millennials, by millennials. And yes, I realize that the term 'millennial' can cover a wide range of people from their late teens to early 30's, but mostly I'm thinking the mid-twenties range. This show seems geared towards them. That seems to be the primary fanbase as far as I can tell. Dealing with real world adult issues is pretty damn relatable. Am I wrong?
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    A show that mostly lacks:

    Blood and Gore
    Sex/Nudity/Lewdness
    Foul Language
    Darkness
    Tackling Serious Issues*
    Nuance
    Having something to say or a message to teach that isn't some generic child friendly kids theme
    Etc.

    Is aimed at adults to you? It's definitely aimed at kids otherwise a huge chunk of their decisions make no sense. If RWBY were aimed at adults the whole show would be like the second half of Volume 3 or the Apathy episode. (Note: I'm not saying that being dark = adult, im pointing out that they shy away from things that would make it hard to air RWBY as a saturday morning cartoon, instead of making a show fit for toonami or adult swim)

    *yes I know racism is a serious issue, but it's a side plot introduced so that there can be catgirl waifus and terrorist villains, the show has nothing to say on the issue and isn't really about that per say. Zootopia was unironically more willing to go into it and that's literally a kids movie.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Weren't they explicitly surprised at the younger audience, which is why they put a warning in volume 3 that things were about to get dark?
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    I don't know about that, i can neither confirm nor deny. But i do know that they felt the need to say that it won't be dark like volume 3 all the time just that it can get dark sometimes. Which always came off to me like they're trying to make a kids show. Otherwise they'd feel no problem with getting dark and staying there as long as they like.
     
    devilkingx2 said:
    Blood and Gore
    Sex/Nudity/Lewdness
    Foul Language
    Darkness
    Tackling Serious Issues*
    Having something to say or a message to teach that isn't some generic child friendly kids theme
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    Let's break that down:
    • Dismemberment and bloodshed are shown in RWBY.
    • While not a huge issue, there is the fact that the characters wear outfits that do show skin, even in the cold of winter.
    • "YOU BITCH!" "THAT BASTARD!", need I say more?
    • They're currently having a crisis of faith and believing they're in an endless war against a foe they can't beat and that the only hope they have aside from just giving up is to just delay the inevitable by just one day or, according to theorists, call down the not-omniscient Gods down to "pass Judgement" and pray they're not as much of assholes as they are back then.
    • Racism, as you said, but also PTSD, the brink of war, and having doubts about your superiors are just a few examples.
    • Eeeeeh, some what? They have something to say about Racism ("don't let others speak for you"), but as pointed out a couple of pages ago, the alternative that's implied by the talker's father is kind of child unfriendly. And then there's "do things that others think are impossible... until next Volume confirms that, yes, this is impossible, then just give up and possibly abuse a child".
    So... yeah. They have had adult moments in RWBY.
     
    Zam said:
    That is an adult dating a child so illegal and awful.
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    Actually, it's perfectly legal here.
    thesevenwielder said:
    Dealing with real world adult issues is pretty damn relatable.
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    Reletable, but I watch a show like this so I don't have to deal with my adult issues.
    Psyga315 said:
    While not a huge issue, there is the fact that the characters wear outfits that do show skin, even in the cold of winter.
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    Do you want them to wear burqas or something? The outfits are way too open for winter, but don't show any more skin than the average good looking 20ish girl in good weather.
     
    One of the showcs biggest mistakes is the Grimm slaying Silver Eye wings Ruby got at the end of the third season. Not only is it a deus ex machina that makes the season end on a complete anticlimax and gives the main character a secret superpower just because, it opens up all sorts of plot holes on why she never used it for two entire seasons afterwards, and it completely trivializes any sort of combat with the Grimm. The trigger for the power itself, finally revealed two or three episodes ago is apparently love. Yep, this show sinks to the level of love as a superpower. Which begs the question of why they never activated when all her other friends were at risk of dying from the Grimm earlier. I guess she didn't love them enough.

    But you know, for as many potholes as this opens, at least it's was still a somewhat reasonable trigger. You have to see your loved ones in danger before you can activate it. But nope, it was just revealed that Ruby will learn to activate it whenever, further trivializing the Grimm. And just after the show made a valiant effort to make the Grimm actually threatening, when for nearly the entire show's run they've been a joke.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    One of the showcs biggest mistakes is the Grimm slaying Silver Eye wings Ruby got at the end of the third season. Not only is it a deus ex machina that makes the season end on a complete anticlimax and gives the main character a secret superpower just because, it opens up all sorts of plot holes on why she never used it for two entire seasons afterwards, and it completely trivializes any sort of combat with the Grimm. The trigger for the power itself, finally revealed two or three episodes ago is apparently love. Yep, this show sinks to the level of love as a superpower. Which begs the question of why they never activated when all her other friends were at risk of dying from the Grimm earlier. I guess she didn't love them enough.

    But you know, for as many potholes as this opens, at least it's was still a somewhat reasonable trigger. You have to see your loved ones in danger before you can activate it. But nope, it was just revealed that Ruby will learn to activate it whenever, further trivializing the Grimm. And just after the show made a valiant effort to make the Grimm actually threatening, when for nearly the entire show's run they've been a joke.
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    Didn't you make this exact argument about a week or two ago?
     
    Setting aside the silver eyes which didn't come out of nowhere as the eye color was specifically mentioned and had attention called to it at the very beginning of the show by what we know know is the setting's gods chewtoy so its not out of nowhere or that sort of eye color has a long history of meaning in fiction and myth going back thousands of years I am not sure what exactly is the point bringing up that Chekhov's gun and labeling it a deus ex machina yet again?
     
    Alane1 said:
    Setting aside the silver eyes which didn't come out of nowhere as the eye color was specifically mentioned and had attention called to it at the very beginning of the show by what we know know is the setting's gods chewtoy so its not out of nowhere or that sort of eye color has a long history of meaning in fiction and myth going back thousands of years I am not sure what exactly is the point bringing up that Chekhov's gun and labeling it a deus ex machina yet again?
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    What do you have against punctuation?

    Anyway, we didn't know Ozpin was more than a headmaster at the time. By Vol 3 we suspected he was the magican who made the maidens. That's it.

    Noting an unusual eye color isn't really a chekov's gun. It'd be if we knew what they did or that legendary warriors had them.

    It was out of nowhere. Point me at one hint besides Ozpin noting her eye color that could lead us to guessing she can pull a Medusa and kill Kevin in one shot.
     
    BBBence1111 said:
    What do you have against punctuation?

    Anyway, we didn't know Ozpin was more than a headmaster at the time. By Vol 3 we suspected he was the magican who made the maidens. That's it.

    Noting an unusual eye color isn't really a chekov's gun. It'd be if we knew what they did or that legendary warriors had them.

    It was out of nowhere. Point me at one hint besides Ozpin noting her eye color that could lead us to guessing she can pull a Medusa and kill Kevin in one shot.
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    I mean, specifically mentioning her eye color as practically their first interaction, and no one else's eyes ever being relevant, is something. It's incredibly weak foreshadowing, but it's still something.
     
    Renewal said:
    I mean, specifically mentioning her eye color as practically their first interaction, and no one else's eyes ever being relevant, is something. It's incredibly weak foreshadowing, but it's still something.
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    Cinder's eyes where glowing in episode 1 mind you.
    Not to mention the eye thing with maidens powers in season 3 leading up to the end before Ruby.
     
    SpeckofStardust said:
    Cinder's eyes where glowing in episode 1 mind you.
    Not to mention the eye thing with maidens powers in season 3 leading up to the end before Ruby.
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    I'd put that on a similar level of foreshadowing too, that things were always freaky with Cinder (though that obviously was revised after Volume 1 with the introduction of the Maidens), but explicitly drawing attention to eye color in dialogue (which again, no one else gets) is a bit above un-commented visual foreshadowing.

    Like, not to rehash a three-year-old argument any further, but weak foreshadowing is still foreshadowing, enough to recognize that there was something more about silver eyes--and enough that people were having "ah ha!" moments when the episode came out that saying it came out of literally nowhere is uncharitable and unproductive hyperbole. RWBY's writing is weak enough as-is; there's no need to ascribe it additional failures when there's plenty of better points to critique it on. Like, you can totally say it's unsatisfying or unrewarding, that more build up would be preferable.

    Like, just as an aside, I would put the silver eyes' foreshadowing on par with the reveal of Regulus Black having defied Voldemort in Harry Potter. There are only two hints to the Regulus thing: his initials in the fake locket Horcrux in HBP, and a barely-remarked on locket in Grimmauld Place in OOTP, and beyond that Regulus at all mattering to the plot is a big swerve in DH. The difference is that RWBY's reveal is the climax of the season, while Regulus is the first big plot development of DH. They have different narrative weights, and it's clear why RWBY's feels so unsatisfying in comparison. But there's still some difference between "coming out of nowhere" and a failure in narrative payout.

    I dunno. I guess I'm just personally peeved with the language used in criticizing media; things like Mary Sue, plot hole, and plot armor are just thrown out so easily that they've become meaningless critiques. Being able to articulate clearly where media fails is important to being able to discuss them in a healthy and productive fashion.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Let's break that down:
    • Dismemberment and bloodshed are shown in RWBY.
    • While not a huge issue, there is the fact that the characters wear outfits that do show skin, even in the cold of winter.
    • "YOU BITCH!" "THAT BASTARD!", need I say more?
    • They're currently having a crisis of faith and believing they're in an endless war against a foe they can't beat and that the only hope they have aside from just giving up is to just delay the inevitable by just one day or, according to theorists, call down the not-omniscient Gods down to "pass Judgement" and pray they're not as much of assholes as they are back then.
    • Racism, as you said, but also PTSD, the brink of war, and having doubts about your superiors are just a few examples.
    • Eeeeeh, some what? They have something to say about Racism ("don't let others speak for you"), but as pointed out a couple of pages ago, the alternative that's implied by the talker's father is kind of child unfriendly. And then there's "do things that others think are impossible... until next Volume confirms that, yes, this is impossible, then just give up and possibly abuse a child".
    So... yeah. They have had adult moments in RWBY.
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    Oh, and while we're at it, The Lost Fable is pretty adult if you think about the Problem of Evil (the theological debate of "if there's a God, how come he lets evil things happen?") and how the Gods played into that.

    "We're not just doing nothing about evil, we've created evil. Have fun, Remnant!"
     
    To be fair to Adam (and God do I not like having to say that), we don't actually know at what point he and Blake were actually in a relationship. It's entirely possible, for example, that it only started like a year before Blake left when she was about 16. Their relationship was incredibly f*cked up for a myriad of reasons, and Adam is definitely at least 4-5 years older than Blake so it's problematic no matter where this is in the timeline, but let's not assume that Adam was flat-out trying to mack on a 12 year old without proof, if only because that's a mental image I never want to have.

    Psyga315 said:
    Oh, and while we're at it, The Lost Fable is pretty adult if you think about the Problem of Evil (the theological debate of "if there's a God, how come he lets evil things happen?") and how the Gods played into that.

    "We're not just doing nothing about evil, we've created evil. Have fun, Remnant!"
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    More that it's only when you have this Judeo-Christian notion of God as a singular, all-powerful, all-loving being that the "Problem of Evil" even exists in the first place.
     
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