RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

thesevenwielder · Dec 16, 2018

VolantRedX said:
I mean I don't think Blake was literally saying that the White Fang burned her house down. She was saying they attacked her family and started the fight that caused her to burn the house down. Blake was using a metaphor to equate how the White Fang only destroy and will rip the Faunus apart.

I'm not sure why you're responding only to me when @Zam literally said the same thing, before me.

devilkingx2 · Dec 16, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
You do realize the bolded part also applies to Blake burning her house down and blaming the White Fang.

Technically it wasn't a lie

VolantRedX · Dec 17, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
I'm not sure why you're responding only to me when @Zam literally said the same thing, before me.

Because I'm on a phone and it's easier to just quote one person, plus your quote of me showed up in my alerts.

Driven by Apathy · Dec 17, 2018

VolantRedX said:
I personally feel that the condemnation of Sienna isn't her personally or if she's effective but that her methods attract a certain sort of person. Adam wasn't some lone actor. He had massive support, to the point he could stage a coup, because once use accept the use of murder and violence to achieve your ends you end up with an organization full of violent murderers.

There isn't much information about Sienna Khan, or what kind of policies she did, or didn't condone. We know she agitated for the use of force in the cause of achieving faunus equality, but depending on specifics and circumstances, that might not necessarily have been the wrong choice, either morally or strategically.

Nevertheless, I feel safe in my assumption that she wasn't one of the good guys. Why?

Simple. She was the leader of an underdog ragtag band of rebels/resistance fighters/terrorists, and she thought it was an appropriate use of resources to build herself a giant throne room. Seriously, the entire place just screams "megalomaniac would-be dictator right here"!

Zam · Dec 17, 2018

Driven by Apathy said:
There isn't much information about Sienna Khan, or what kind of policies she did, or didn't condone. We know she agitated for the use of force in the cause of achieving faunus equality, but depending on specifics and circumstances, that might not necessarily have been the wrong choice, either morally or strategically.

Nevertheless, I feel safe in my assumption that she wasn't one of the good guys. Why?

Simple. She was the leader of an underdog ragtag band of rebels/resistance fighters/terrorists, and she thought it was an appropriate use of resources to build herself a giant throne room. Seriously, the entire place just screams "megalomaniac would-be dictator right here"!

While obviously head-canon I think we can make some assumptions based on what we saw. We know based on the Adam trailer she can be OK with death but doesn't indulge in it the way Adam did as she just knocked out her opponents as where Adam wanted to execute his but stayed his hand in her presence. We know they targeted companies and businesses that either exploited Faunus labor or refused Faunus service and based n what Weiss said have presumably assassinate at least a couple of high rollers in the former category. According to Blake these methods were working (& no one has ever refuted her claim) but she left due to what Adam was doing which she seemed to assume was on Sienna's orders but given it served no practical purpose & Adam revealed the "Kill them all rather than steal useful resources" plan mid-execution I tend to assume he changed it himself.

As to the throne room, obvious head-canon is obvious but given all the broken down ruins in Remnant it seems more practical and likely for them to have just taken over an old ruin and done it up. Given an organization like theirs would need a main base and the social engineering required to present one self as leader I can see the decision having pragmatic rather than selfish motives, but that is just my take.

VolantRedX · Dec 17, 2018

Zam said:
As to the throne room, obvious head-canon is obvious but given all the broken down ruins in Remnant it seems more practical and likely for them to have just taken over an old ruin and done it up. Given an organization like theirs would need a main base and the social engineering required to present one self as leader I can see the decision having pragmatic rather than selfish motives, but that is just my take.

That might be true but it's missing the point. There's no practical reason that Sienna meets with her chief enforcers in a giant throne room devoid of anything except her personal throne. That's not very efficient when having a meeting and seems to exist just to lord her power over people. Sienna isn't evil the way Adam is evil, but she seems to have ambitions beyond Faunus equality.

Zam · Dec 17, 2018

VolantRedX said:
That might be true but it's missing the point. There's no practical reason that Sienna meets with her chief enforcers in a giant throne room devoid of anything except her personal throne. That's not very efficient when having a meeting and seems to exist just to lord her power over people. Sienna isn't evil the way Adam is evil, but she seems to have ambitions beyond Faunus equality.

Given the statues I'd say it is not devoid of anything and given Adam was, the first time he was there being given a very important mission in a fairly intimate manner, IE Sienna was't on the throne and the second time was when Sienna was chastising him I think its existence is more for the practical effect of communicating authority than reveling in it, but that is just me.

Plus if we're gonna take issue with people for displays of power, Ironwood parking a whole fleet onto of someone else's kingdom and Ozpin placing himself atop the tallest tower, right above the Maiden and relic basement, in a castle that kind of resembles Salem's old prison could be said to be of similar levels of ostentatious in my eyes.

Just for reference I grasp where you're coming from, but am merely trying to offer an alternate perspective.

VolantRedX · Dec 17, 2018

Zam said:
Given the statues I'd say it is not devoid of anything and given Adam was, the first time he was there being given a very important mission in a fairly intimate manner, IE Sienna was't on the throne and the second time was when Sienna was chastising him I think its existence is more for the practical effect of communicating authority than reveling in it, but that is just me.

Plus if we're gonna take issue with people for displays of power, Ironwood parking a whole fleet onto of someone else's kingdom and Ozpin placing himself atop the tallest tower, right above the Maiden and relic basement, in a castle that kind of resembles Salem's old prison could be said to be of similar levels of ostentatious in my eyes.

Just for reference I grasp where you're coming from, but am merely trying to offer an alternate perspective.

Neither Ozpin or Ironwood are presenting themselves as rebels for the equality of all races. The reason her having a throne at all is that it sends a specific message. That message being that she's the queen and everyone else is beneath her. I mean I won't argue that she wasn't effective, and she was a lot better than Adam, but Lenin was effective and a lot better than Stalin and even he was pretty questionable. It's a similar situation here.

Zam · Dec 17, 2018

VolantRedX said:
Neither Ozpin or Ironwood are presenting themselves as rebels for the equality of all races. The reason her having a throne at all is that it sends a specific message. That message being that she's the queen and everyone else is beneath her. I mean I won't argue that she wasn't effective, and she was a lot better than Adam, but Lenin was effective and a lot better than Stalin and even he was pretty questionable. It's a similar situation here.

Point I more meant in that they are all leaders who one could argue put themselves in ostentatious positions which could make them seem elitist if one wanted to read them that way. Like I said I get your perspective, it is understandable and I am glad we agree she was effective, I just think there could be more to it than ego, especially given social engineer, the prevalence of ruins and the fact we saw her be willing to get in on the action. But as I said, I can see your point. (One HC I toyed with is that the statues, specific clothes ETC are tied to Sienna's bid to revive nearly exterminated Faunus culture given the robed picture we saw the Albain's before but again, HC)

ShadowEMT · Dec 17, 2018

Driven by Apathy said:
There isn't much information about Sienna Khan, or what kind of policies she did, or didn't condone. We know she agitated for the use of force in the cause of achieving faunus equality, but depending on specifics and circumstances, that might not necessarily have been the wrong choice, either morally or strategically.

We also know that she attacked peaceful protests made by other Faunus group, it is basically said the first time that we are told the WF name and are introduced to the Faunus in Episode 2 of the series.

Zam · Dec 17, 2018

ShadowEMT said:
We also know that she attacked peaceful protests made by other Faunus group, it is basically said the first time that we are told the WF name and are introduced to the Faunus in Episode 2 of the series.

Keep in mind this was in Vale after Adam and Cinder took over and given Blake never references anything like this I find it questionable that Sienna would order it.

Psyga315 · Dec 17, 2018

Zam said:
Keep in mind this was in Vale after Adam and Cinder took over and given Blake never references anything like this I find it questionable that Sienna would order it.

She probably was unaware of it and just thought "meh, if Adam is doing good, then leave him be."

Zam · Dec 17, 2018

Psyga315 said:
She probably was unaware of it and just thought "meh, if Adam is doing good, then leave him be."

That's my general assumption, she has an organization that reaches across the world to manage and keep hidden, delegation is pretty important in that regard so if one of her main lieutenants isn't hinting at any problems and they're still sending the reports they're meant to, then she can focus on other areas like Mistrali lynch mobs or SDC mines ETC.

Plus in regards to the protest disruption specifically, while I wouldn't be surprised if she'd become aware of it eventually, it may not have been big enough news to reach Mistral all that quickly and it wouldn't exactly be all that unreasonable to think the news was just assuming it was them doing it and or not someone taking their name for their own ends.

Bea · Dec 17, 2018

Zam said:
it may not have been big enough news to reach Mistral all that quickly and it wouldn't exactly be all that unreasonable to think the news was just assuming it was them doing it and or not someone taking their name for their own ends.

Honestly if I was in their position I'm not sure I'd believe that sort of news essentially at all unless somebody I can trust implicitly came and confirmed to that it was at least basically accurate.

Sworl · Dec 17, 2018

Zam said:
@Sworl I am done with this debate, the entire premise off your position pretty much seems to be instead of responding to the criticism of Jaune as a character or the writing around him, to be changing the subject to try and get a 'gotcha' situation where in you pick a character you know the person (me) likes and try to drag them down to his level even though the actions are not equivalent or the same in the first place. If you can't defend Jaune's actions or writing without this kind of trickery (As well as ignoring the VA's, accusing me of being emotional while ignoring your own emotions, claiming objectivity is a thing, and asking leading questions ETC) then you just can't defend them, so please kindly stop harassing me with this.

That is a very.....Scaramucci view to take on the matter.

And I wasn't trying to make you bad mouth a character you like. I personally like all of the main cast.
Nor was I attempting to say that all characters actions were equivocal in this case.

Rather this started because you were complaining about how Jaune's behavior was bad, someone said Yang didn't act too classy either, then you started talking about Yang and coming up with reasons as to why that didn't count - reasons that didn't sound consistent or sensible to me (and niggled a pet peeve of mine in the process), I pointed out why I did not think that what you were saying made sense and so on and so forth.

What got my goat was that I never really got satisfactory feedback to the points I wanted addressed.
You either didn't answer properly/fully -

Sworl said:
Yes? This is not a court of law. A leading question - 'a question that prompts or encourages the answer wanted' - is good thing if it can bring up the issue you want addressed. You've mostly been ignoring or only partially addressing the points I've raised.
Case in point you did not answer the second part of what I asked you here

Do you think that the other characters treat (or perceive) Jaune or Yang as unsympathetic creeps?

Said stuff that was contradictory to stuff you had already said -

Sworl said:
What? No, she quite demonstrably did encourage him.
That might not (supposedly) have been her intention, but as you've said yourself -

or just ignored the points completely -

Sworl said:
These two interrelate to each other.
I'm not trying to convince you to feel or think differently about a specific character, I'm trying to make a point about how I think your analysis isn't very balanced/rational; not because you are using both Watsonian and Doylist reasoning to interpret the characters, but rather because you are not using them evenly.

To summarize:
You take serious issue with the business of Jaune (a character you don't like) behaving badly for purely Watsonian reasons.
But for characters (that you like) such as Yang, Blake, Ruby and others who stood idly and indifferently by while this 'terrible' thing was happening to their friend (and in Yangs case actively encouraged it), you have no disdain what so ever for purely Doylist reasons.
Can you see how this might be a somewhat biased and irrational way to appraise the situation and maybe just a bit of a double standard?

I've come to the conclusion (which in retrospect I suppose I knew from the start and was a part of why I was annoyed in the first place) that you don't have any actual thought out reasons for your black and white views beyond 'I like this character so I'm interpreting things this way' and 'I dislike this character so I'm interpreting things this way''

The funny things is that would have been fine with me.
Just saying 'Yeah maybe this isn't an especially balanced take on the situation, but I like these characters and I don't like Jaune, so screw it.' would have been quite reasonable, especially when compared with an incoherent argument as to why there was a deeper rationale to your views beyond that.

Heck this has come up as a point before in this thread and the last time you simply stated that it was because you liked Yang and didn't like Jaune, rather than needlessly wasting time pretending you had more complex reasons.

Sworl said:
While I don't disagree with you I'd point out that by that same reasoning, Jaune's behavior is 'more a reflection of the writing than him as a person' as well.

Zam said:
True, but I dislike Jaune as a character and because of the writing XD

Short, sweet, fair and irrefutable. I don't know what was different this time.

Zam said:
@Sworl so please kindly stop harassing me with this.

No I'm arguing with you.
If you stopped replying to what I'm saying and I kept posting about this over and over and flagged you repeatedly, then I would be harassing you.

You didn't have to engage with me or bother justifying anything you said in your posts, if you did not want to.
You could have said this (or nothing at all) at anytime and walked away -

Zam said:
I am done with this debate

And that is fair. If you are finished with this, that's your call to make. I'll respect that.

Zam · Dec 17, 2018

Broken Base said:
Honestly if I was in their position I'm not sure I'd believe that sort of news essentially at all unless somebody I can trust implicitly came and confirmed to that it was at least basically accurate.

Same to be honest.

Sworl said:
That is a very.....Scaramucci view to take on the matter.

I do not appreciate being compared to Trumpian people. Ever.

Also I asked you to leave me alone, so kindly do so. It is clear this discussion is a waste of time on both our ends and is just eating up thread space to ultimately say nothing while getting increasingly unpleasant and unhinged with your accusation into my motives and rationale while disregarding what I actually say or outright insulting me.

Sworl said:
And that is fair. If you are finished with this, that's your call to make. I'll respect that.

You clearly aren't.

devilkingx2 · Dec 17, 2018

So now that we've all agreed that jaune is the greatest character ever conceived, his chiseled manly jaw carved from sacred stone by an archangel;

Our next order of business is thus: should sakurai add jaune to smash ultimate as DLC?

discuss.

Nidhoggr · Dec 17, 2018

devilkingx2 said:
Our next order of business is thus: should sakurai add jaune to smash ultimate as DLC?

His final smash: Get ineffectually mad before crying about his dusted not girlfriend.

Psyga315 · Dec 17, 2018

devilkingx2 said:
So now that we've all agreed that jaune is the greatest character ever conceived, his chiseled manly jaw carved from sacred stone by an archangel;

Our next order of business is thus: should sakurai add jaune to smash ultimate as DLC?

discuss.

His in-game mechanic is that he trips every Smash Attack so he doesn't land effective blows, so you must plan around him. Also, in a stamina team match, if he has a female team mate and she goes to 0, he'll run to her side and cry for five minutes about how he can't lose anyone else. Then he starts to heal her which can get interrupted by anyone, including other team mates (irony points as they'll say something like "whatever you're doing, don't stop!")

Triggerhappy · Dec 17, 2018

Driven by Apathy said:
Simple. She was the leader of an underdog ragtag band of rebels/resistance fighters/terrorists, and she thought it was an appropriate use of resources to build herself a giant throne room. Seriously, the entire place just screams "megalomaniac would-be dictator right here"!

And not the successful kind. The successful ones worry about the throne rooms after they gain power. Unless they happened to have one due to circumstance, like family inheritance, or capturing a castle early in their rebellion.

Zam · Dec 17, 2018

Triggerhappy said:
And not the successful kind. The successful ones worry about the throne rooms after they gain power. Unless they happened to have one due to circumstance, like family inheritance, or capturing a castle early in their rebellion.

Again, Remnant is full of ruins so capturing an old fort is entirely possible, plus given she'd been leading a successful para military organization with soldiers and popularity all across the world I'd say she was pretty dang successful.

devilkingx2 · Dec 17, 2018

Psyga315 said:
His in-game mechanic is that he trips every Smash Attack so he doesn't land effective blows, so you must plan around him. Also, in a stamina team match, if he has a female team mate and she goes to 0, he'll run to her side and cry for five minutes about how he can't lose anyone else. Then he starts to heal her which can get interrupted by anyone, including other team mates (irony points as they'll say something like "whatever you're doing, don't stop!")

Imagine if this actually makes him top tier in the meta because a skilled player can use tripping to dodge or reposition and jaune can do it on command

Also his final smash does a negative amount of damage to himself or an ally, but is definitely not a healing smash. Totally.

Jcogginsa · Dec 17, 2018

On the one hand, I love talking about hypothetical smash game characters, too the point that I made a whole thread for it over on SB

One the other hand, this discussion seems to be an excuse to shit on Jaune in an extremely unfunny manner.

Psyga315 · Dec 17, 2018

devilkingx2 said:
Imagine if this actually makes him top tier in the meta because a skilled player can use tripping to dodge or reposition and jaune can do it on command

Also his final smash does a negative amount of damage to himself or an ally, but is definitely not a healing smash. Totally.

Also, instead of using an Assist Trophy to summon a competent fighter, he instead whines to someone about how they should go and save his team mate, only to smash the Assist Trophy in frustration.

Also, he doesn't know how to activate his shield. Not that it would matter because Smash Ultimate's fifth patch will make everyone forget to use shields.

devilkingx2 · Dec 17, 2018

Jcogginsa said:
On the one hand, I love talking about hypothetical smash game characters, too the point that I made a whole thread for it over on SB

One the other hand, this discussion seems to be an excuse to shit on Jaune in an extremely unfunny manner.

To be fair I don't hate jaune, I hate whoever decided to ruin jaune

Lets replace his comic relief with angst and make his canon semblance lame as hell relegating him to being the boring support role. Also instead of being the underdog who improves until he achieves great things he's still basically the same at the end of V5 as he was in V1. >.>

But a part of me still holds out hope that one day jaune will actually be cool. I didn't really like naruto until he could actually hold his own in a fight either.

Also only video game characters can be in smash so until Goku joins the Brawl there's a higher chance of Jaune being a guest character in literally any other fighting game (or arc sys making a dedicated RWBY fighter). He's totally gonna be the lethal joke character though

Psyga315 said:
Also, instead of using an Assist Trophy to summon a competent fighter, he instead whines to someone about how they should go and save his team mate, only to smash the Assist Trophy in frustration.

Also, he doesn't know how to activate his shield. Not that it would matter because Smash Ultimate's fifth patch will make everyone forget to use shields.

On the forums noobs who can't git gud with jaune are told that it's a slow burn and they should practice with him for 5 years before still losing tournaments

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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