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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • devilkingx2 said:
    Um... He did this one thing in the knuck- nook- nuckle- headless horseman fight that was pretty cool
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    You mean where he tackled one of its legs and it did pretty much nothing, because no progress was made in that fight until they pinned its arms and Ren killed it with a knife that was somehow more functional at killing the Nuck than anything else was?
     
    Delphisage said:
    You mean where he tackled one of its legs and it did pretty much nothing, because no progress was made in that fight until they pinned its arms and Ren killed it with a knife that was somehow more functional at killing the Nuck than anything else was?
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    No I'm referring to that brief blink and you'll miss it moment where the nuck was charging towards the house ren and nora were under and then it shows that it stops suddenly because jaune was clashing with it's legs

    We know this isn't a mistake/goof/animation error because ren and nora react to the nuck stopping short and go look then the camera shows us jaune

    That's a pretty huge and impressive strength feat, to stop a giant horse mid charge (a normal horse weighs 1000 pounds) and that's the sort of thing i want to see from jaune after so many volumes, that put a smile on my face

    Volume 5 crushed my dreams when jaune did literally nothing against a barely trying cinder using almost none of her powers, would have been more fitting if her arrogance let jaune kick her ass until she was forced to actually try and that was the motivator for impaling weiss and torturing jaune.
     
    So, you're saying that your favorite moment out of Jaune comes mostly from you interpreting what could just be an animetion messup?

    Course, that still doesn't redeem all the awful, awful awfulness relating to his character over the previousp three seasons.
     
    Delphisage said:
    comes mostly from you interpreting what could just be an animetion messup?
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    devilkingx2 said:
    We know this isn't a mistake/goof/animation error because ren and nora react to the nuck stopping short and go look then the camera shows us jaune
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    ---

    Delphisage said:
    Course, that still doesn't redeem all the awful, awful awfulness relating to his character over the previousp three seasons.
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    As far as I'm concerned the past will cease to be important once the present and future has become worthwhile.

    So if they ever fix jaune, I probably won't care about that stuff. I'm not sure they ever will though.
     
    Oh boy there's a lot of stupidity going on in this thread (so pretty much business as normal).

    On why Blake slapping Sun three times is way better than Jacques slapping Weiss, you morons
    Jacques is Weiss' parent. He's an authority controlling figure, who slaps Weiss in a moment of anger for daring to question him, and follows that up with doing his best to completely disempower Weiss and bring her under his thumb (removing her physical freedoms of movement, removing her social freedoms granted by her position).

    Blake on the other hand, while in the wrong, is an abuse victim slapping someone for (the first time) following her in a really creepy way and (the second and third times) for eavesdropping on a private family conversation.

    The reason why Blake's is okay and Jacques' isn't is the context of the power imbalance between the two. It's that simple. People who try and conflate the two are idiots of the highest order who are basically using the same 'but-what-about' arguments that lead to rape accusations not being taken seriously.

    On Jaune
    What the fuck? We're blaming Jaune for being upset and throwing his scroll after calling Weiss and Ruby now? After we've already seen him contact Glynda - or try to - before Pyrrha shoved him in the locker? We're claiming that somehow despite only fighting for a year he should've been able to beat the highly skilled Cinder while in a furious stupid rage? We're claiming that he should have literally any role other than support, which is what he's been shown he should have from the fucking start of the show (even in Volume 1 and 2, as terrible and no good as huge chunks of them are - especially Jaune bits - he's clearly set up as someone who shouldn't try and be a frontline fighter and fucks things up when he is. Hell, Pyrrha's original death as dumb as it was planned to be shows this even more).

    There's a lot of problems with Jaune in Volumes 1 and 2 - mostly due to his tendency to hog screentime with uninspired high school plotlines rather than the monsterfighting we're there for. There are few problems with him in Volume 3 onwards because he's in a support role. Be that emotional support (to Pyrrha and Ruby) or tactical support (as poorly as that is shown in Volume 4). The moments when he tries to take charge or be a man of action are invariably shown to be bad.

    If you don't like that about his character, fine. Go read one of the nine million 'Jaune is so kewl u gaiz and he bangs all the chicks loooool' fics out there on ffnet. That seems more your speed.
     
    "If you don't believe on friends with Ironwood-" shut your god damned mouth Qrow. You and Ironwood could not be further than friends. The only reason you are not outright enemies is because you both worked for Oz. You have been a complete asshat to him and everyone around him for no reason. It is so bad that even during the fall of Beacon, with hundreds of Grimm surrounding you killing everyone, you found it necessary to fuck with Ironwood one last time, pretending that you were going to attack him and before pulling a gotcha and attacking the Grimm behind him.

    Well, Ruby gets to put herself in Ironwood's shoes and learning what working with Qrow was like. The alcoholic manbaby being as unhelpful as possible while drinking obscene amounts of alcohol.

    Friendly Reminder: just because Qrow's alcoholism general behavior is being treated as a problem now doesn't negate that it has still been a problem ever since his introduction and being drunk and a complete jerk was not only acceptable but praised. That they are treating it as a problem is definite improvement, but one must not forget that for the longest time his behavior was portrayed as perfectly fine.

    I hope that when they finally get to Atlas that Qrow is called out even more on his awful behavior and maybe he is even able to self-reflect, realize how much he screwed up in the past and actually apologizes to both Ironwood and Winter. Or maybe the team is outright refused help because Ironwood rightfully feels he can't trust Qrow, and the rest of the team is provided with even more proof of just how much Qrow is a complete failure at life and ruins everything around him. No need for a bad luck semblance, he does that all on his own.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Friendly Reminder: just because Qrow's alcoholism general behavior is being treated as a problem now doesn't negate that it has still been a problem ever since his introduction and being drunk and a complete jerk was not only acceptable but praised. That they are treating it as a problem is a definite improvement, but one must not forget that for the longest time his behavior was portrayed as perfectly fine.
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    I don't feel it's so much a matter of it now being treated as a problem so much as until now it wasn't a problem, at least for what Qrow actually did. Before Qrow seemed to basically function as a spy and muscle for Ozpin, thus his drinking and attitude didn't detract from his duties. Now he's responsible for several people, is basically the only person who has a handle on the actual situation, and knows the people that they need to work with. So now being an overly aggressive drunk with few social skills going through a major crisis of faith is pretty much removing the "functional" part of his functional alcoholism.

    As for why people praised Qrow, I still don't get why that's a question. He was pretty much a walking trope of the coolest character archetypes. Qrow was like a cop on the edge, a loner who doesn't play by the rules but gets results, a talented or even genius level fighter who doesn't let social grace stand in his way. Like Alucard, Tyler Durden, or pretty much anyone Clint Eastwood played in his career. He's a take off on the cool anti-hero that anyone who grew up on the sorts of action shows RWBY apes is pretty much primed to like.

    I also like that they're calling out his problems as problems because it makes him a more rounded character. The lone wolf on the edge works when he's just there to have a few smartass remarks and a cool scene or two. Not so much when he's one of the lead characters. Actually dealing with his failings makes him interesting and gives him depth. Being a Byronic hero who goes through the plot with a drink in one hand and his scythe in the other, smirking the whole time is boring after a while. Finding out that his personality was basically a thin shell he barely maintained to avoid dealing with a lifetime of hurt and heartbreak is actually way more interesting. I really want to see where he goes from here.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I don't feel it's so much a matter of it now being treated as a problem so much as until now it wasn't a problem, at least for what Qrow actually did. Before Qrow seemed to basically function as a spy and muscle for Ozpin, thus his drinking and attitude didn't detract from his duties. Now he's responsible for several people, is basically the only person who has a handle on the actual situation, and knows the people that they need to work with. So now being an overly aggressive drunk with few social skills going through a major crisis of faith is pretty much removing the "functional" part of his functional alcoholism.
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    While I am unsure it was intentional it definitely could be that and regardless I very much agree with this take, Qrow's alcoholism was, barring his jerkishness to those outside his family, not hugely impacting anyone else and so while unhealthy it is not surprising characters didn't address it much. I could see it as having caused issues when Yang & Ruby were growing up given Ruby seems very familiar with Qrow stumbling in late and drunk and aware of this being an issue, but as his nieces and him being Ruby's teacher, plus not around much it isn't surprising they've not tried to say or do much about it cos what could they do?

    VolantRedX said:
    As for why people praised Qrow, I still don't get why that's a question. He was pretty much a walking trope of the coolest character archetypes. Qrow was like a cop on the edge, a loner who doesn't play by the rules but gets results, a talented or even genius level fighter who doesn't let social grace stand in his way. Like Alucard, Tyler Durden, or pretty much anyone Clint Eastwood played in his career. He's a take off on the cool anti-hero that anyone who grew up on the sorts of action shows RWBY apes is pretty much primed to like.

    I also like that they're calling out his problems as problems because it makes him a more rounded character. The lone wolf on the edge works when he's just there to have a few smartass remarks and a cool scene or two. Not so much when he's one of the lead characters. Actually dealing with his failings makes him interesting and gives him depth. Being a Byronic hero who goes through the plot with a drink in one hand and his scythe in the other, smirking the whole time is boring after a while. Finding out that his personality was basically a thin shell he barely maintained to avoid dealing with a lifetime of hurt and heartbreak is actually way more interesting. I really want to see where he goes from here.
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    I don't really agree that he was cool or likable in his intro, but that is a matter of taste in characters and views on behaviors ETC. Though.. Tyler is meant to be cool? Wasn't he like, just a giant ball of toxic masculinity?

    Yeah I definitely like that we're seeing other layers and his habits are actually causing and being treated as problems rather than just shrugged off or treated as 'cool'.
     
    Zam said:
    While I am unsure it was intentional it definitely could be that and regardless I very much agree with this take, Qrow's alcoholism was, barring his jerkishness to those outside his family, not hugely impacting anyone else and so while unhealthy it is not surprising characters didn't address it much. I could see it as having caused issues when Yang & Ruby were growing up given Ruby seems very familiar with Qrow stumbling in late and drunk and aware of this being an issue, but as his nieces and him being Ruby's teacher, plus not around much it isn't surprising they've not tried to say or do much about it cos what could they do?
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    It's actually pretty common for alcoholism to be untreated for decades when the person in question isn't being called upon to actually be responsible. Even many alcoholics are able to more or less function until some major crisis in their lives breaks them down a bit. So Ruby and Yang might have just laughed at funny uncle Qrow getting piss drunk every day but now that they actually need him to take some control of the situation, which he isn't in any condition to actually do, it's no longer something funny.

    Zam said:
    I don't really agree that he was cool or likable in his intro, but that is a matter of taste in characters and views on behaviors ETC. Though.. Tyler is meant to be cool? Wasn't he like, just a giant ball of toxic masculinity?
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    Tyler's sort of a deconstruction of this archetype. He's a badass rebel railing against all the petty trappings of the modern world, but at the same time, the ultimate moral of Fight Club is that such a person is actually very dangerous and the product of an unstable mind. The audience is meant to see him as cool, until we, like the Narrator, slowly realize his darker nature. Like Qrow the superficial aspects of his personality are appealing but the actually interesting parts of the character don't emerge until you see that they're just superficial.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    It's actually pretty common for alcoholism to be untreated for decades when the person in question isn't being called upon to actually be responsible. Even many alcoholics are able to more or less function until some major crisis in their lives breaks them down a bit. So Ruby and Yang might have just laughed at funny uncle Qrow getting piss drunk every day but now that they actually need him to take some control of the situation, which he isn't in any condition to actually do, it's no longer something funny.
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    While true though given the nature of alcoholism I tend to find the term 'functional' something of s misnomer and doubt they were laughing at it even if they perhaps didn't see how serious it was though we can't be sure.

    VolantRedX said:
    Tyler's sort of a deconstruction of this archetype. He's a badass rebel railing against all the petty trappings of the modern world, but at the same time, the ultimate moral of Fight Club is that such a person is actually very dangerous and the product of an unstable mind. The audience is meant to see him as cool, until we, like the Narrator, slowly realize his darker nature. Like Qrow the superficial aspects of his personality are appealing but the actually interesting parts of the character don't emerge until you see that they're just superficial.
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    Ah OK the, yeah while as noted I wouldn't exactly see him as cool I can see your point there and agree thanks for clarifying.
     
    Zam said:
    While true though given the nature of alcoholism I tend to find the term 'functional' something of s misnomer and doubt they were laughing at it even if they perhaps didn't see how serious it was though we can't be sure
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    They're also kids, see him rarely, and never really have to rely on him—I doubt they ever saw the full extent of his drinking (and to be fair, it probably got worse after V3) People can be fun when they're drunk, it's why it's still socially acceptable in moderation. But once they began traveling together and needed him in a crisis, it became clear he was far more of an alcoholic than they realized. Brunswick Farm was probably a bit of an eye opener.
     
    Renewal said:
    They're also kids, see him rarely, and never really have to rely on him—I doubt they ever saw the full extent of his drinking (and to be fair, it probably got worse after V3) People can be fun when they're drunk, it's why it's still socially acceptable in moderation. But once they began traveling together and needed him in a crisis, it became clear he was far more of an alcoholic than they realized. Brunswick Farm was probably a bit of an eye opener.
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    I mean it's telling that Ruby's reaction to finding the wine cellar was "we should hide this from my uncle". She's smart enough to realize he's not in a good place and he seems to have one response to emotional issues.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I mean it's telling that Ruby's reaction to finding the wine cellar was "we should hide this from my uncle". She's smart enough to realize he's not in a good place and he seems to have one response to emotional issues.
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    Yup. I'm mostly just pointing that it's probably not something she would've cared about in V3 or earlier when life was carefree and Qrow wasn't in a crisis point all the time, so Qrow's drunkenness would be less of a sticking point, even if the behavior is identical.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    As for why people praised Qrow, I still don't get why that's a question. He was pretty much a walking trope of the coolest character archetypes. Qrow was like a cop on the edge, a loner who doesn't play by the rules but gets results, a talented or even genius level fighter who doesn't let social grace stand in his way. Like Alucard, Tyler Durden, or pretty much anyone Clint Eastwood played in his career. He's a take off on the cool anti-hero that anyone who grew up on the sorts of action shows RWBY apes is pretty much primed to like.
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    While you're not wrong, Qrow locks that one key characteristic that all the other ass whole characters have. That being charisma. Being suave in some way, or some other sort of redeeming feature. Qrow lacks any of that. Unfortunately, like you said, a lot of people are primed to like that sort of behavior at face value because that's what they grew up on. And because the show's writers always stick to the popular tropes without quite understanding the how's and why's they got popular to begin with, they only choose the superficial aspects. And of course, fans eat it right up while making the flawed comparisons like you are. I don't entirely blame you for this. It is something of a cultural zeitgeist. You are encouraged to view this thing through a non critical lens. And again you have already been primed to like this sort of character, or at least the superficial jackass elements without understanding why it worked.

    About the other part that I did not quote, about how it is only now being treated as a problem because his Tendencies did not harm anyone. While again, you aren't wrong and your comment is true on its face, you are missing the context. The tone it was being presented as was look at this cool drunk who is a jerk to everyone and gets away with it. That is how he was presented to the audience. That was the tone we were given. We the audience were meant to laugh and support him.
     
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    draconas said:
    On the discussion of Maria's perceived weakness, given the huntsman academies are 80 years old, and naming people after colors happens at the same time, which Maria Calavera doesn't seem to be, it is quite possible she didn't receive any formal training since that flashback very well could have been before or around the start of Huntsman Academies.
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    Huh. And then she goes and says she never went to an academy the very next episode. I believe I am obligated to make a telephone joke of some stripe or another.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    While you're not wrong, Qrow locks that one key characteristic that all the other ass whole characters have. That being charisma. Being suave in some way, or some other sort of redeeming feature. Qrow lacks any of that. Unfortunately, like you said, a lot of people are primed to like that sort of behavior at face value because that's what they grew up on. And because the show's writers always stick to the popular tropes without quite understanding the how's and why's they got popular to begin with, they only choose the superficial aspects. And of course, fans eat it right up while making the flawed comparisons like you are. I don't entirely blame you for this. It is something of a cultural zeitgeist. You are encouraged to view this thing through a non critical lens. And again you have already been primed to like this sort of character, or at least the superficial jackass elements without understanding why it worked.

    About the other part that I did not quote, about how it is only now being treated as a problem because his Tendencies did not harm anyone. While again, you aren't wrong and your comment is true on its face, you are missing the context. The tone it was being presented as was look at this cool drunk who is a jerk to everyone and gets away with it. That is how he was presented to the audience. That was the tone we were given. We the audience were meant to laugh and support him.
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    Except the idea that Qrow lacks charisma isn't an objective fact. That's just opinion. I actually find him pretty funny at times and think he has a lot of cool moments. Just because you find him uncharismatic doesn't mean everyone does and writing that opinion off as a failing on the part of fans, as essentially being tricked into liking him, hampers any discussion of the character. Plenty of posters on this site have presented some pretty insightful commentaries on him.

    This is not to say that your feelings are in any way invalid. I could see why someone would regard Qrow as a really terrible person, especially since you've long held distrust of Ozpin. That, however, is not the same thing as a fact. Nor is my personal opinion that I find Qrow funny and interesting anything beyond my personal feelings about the work. The issue at play isn't really a matter of RT pulling off the brooding anti-hero with Qrow, it's more a matter of if a person likes that specific character. There however is a major difference between personally disliking a character and that character failing. For instance, I don't like Blake all that much. I find her boring and feel that she's pretty flat as a character, but that opinion does not mean CRWBY somehow failed in presenting that character to me, just that I didn't like what they presented.

    Or to sum all this up in a Star Trek-like metaphor CRWBY are basically cooks, they're serving us a meal. It's fine not to like a certain dish at the meal, but don't say it's burnt when it isn't. You don't like Qrow? More power to you, but don't call me uncritical for having a different opinion on the matter.

    As for the second part I don't feel like I'm the one missing context here. Tone and context can change in a work. It's totally acceptable for a work to present a character as cool in one context then without altering the character at all show how different the same character would look in a different context. It's actually a pretty neat narrative trick, one that I don't think Miles and Kerry tried to pull off but stumbled ass-backward into. Showing how aspects characters shift and distort as the tone of the work evolves and changes with the plot is actually something you want to have happened. That's much better than trying to get square pegs to fit round holes.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    "If you don't believe on friends with Ironwood-" shut your god damned mouth Qrow. You and Ironwood could not be further than friends. The only reason you are not outright enemies is because you both worked for Oz. You have been a complete asshat to him and everyone around him for no reason. It is so bad that even during the fall of Beacon, with hundreds of Grimm surrounding you killing everyone, you found it necessary to fuck with Ironwood one last time, pretending that you were going to attack him and before pulling a gotcha and attacking the Grimm behind him.
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    Your bias is showing, you criticize Qrow for saving ironwood's life and somehow think that ironwood's reaction to Qrow was part of some manipulative scheme when the very next thing Qrow says is "I know you didn't do it". If he was trying to intimidate ironwood he would remain silent on the issue and let it be ambiguous.
     
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    hellgodsrus said:
    On Jaune
    What the fuck? We're blaming Jaune for being upset and throwing his scroll after calling Weiss and Ruby now? After we've already seen him contact Glynda - or try to - before Pyrrha shoved him in the locker? We're claiming that somehow despite only fighting for a year he should've been able to beat the highly skilled Cinder while in a furious stupid rage? We're claiming that he should have literally any role other than support, which is what he's been shown he should have from the fucking start of the show (even in Volume 1 and 2, as terrible and no good as huge chunks of them are - especially Jaune bits - he's clearly set up as someone who shouldn't try and be a frontline fighter and fucks things up when he is. Hell, Pyrrha's original death as dumb as it was planned to be shows this even more).

    There's a lot of problems with Jaune in Volumes 1 and 2 - mostly due to his tendency to hog screentime with uninspired high school plotlines rather than the monsterfighting we're there for. There are few problems with him in Volume 3 onwards because he's in a support role. Be that emotional support (to Pyrrha and Ruby) or tactical support (as poorly as that is shown in Volume 4). The moments when he tries to take charge or be a man of action are invariably shown to be bad.

    If you don't like that about his character, fine. Go read one of the nine million 'Jaune is so kewl u gaiz and he bangs all the chicks loooool' fics out there on ffnet. That seems more your speed.
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    Being support is lame and boring. It's their character and they can do what they want with him, but I'm never gonna like him if he can't be cool. I'll only ever be annoyed by his current angst or laugh at his patheticness.

    I don't really like the message "well some people are just born inferior and all they can do is serve their betters" tbh. I didn't like it in bleach or Naruto, I've always preferred a DBZ or One Piece approach where you don't need unfair advantages over everyone to make something of yourself. If RWBY wants to go with "you have to be born great, actual merit is irrelevant" then sure, whatever. (Notice that we never see anyone progress or start from the bottom and climb. Everyone is about where they started, and no amount of time experience or training made any real difference. Look at Oscar, in his very first fight he's as strong as everyone else. Look at RWBY, at least 50% of them haven't changed notably in several volumes)

    Meanwhile the cinder thing is like, if he's not going to do anything he shouldn't be fighting her. And he is one of two people with the most beef with cinder... So he accomplishes nothing and gets dunked. Imagine a movie where a guy seeks revenge on his high school bully only to be equally humiliated in adulthood by a bully who has learned nothing and left crying and bleeding on the sidewalk, roll credits.
     
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