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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • thesevenwielder said:
    On the other hand, Bowser can be a pretty badass villain at times, he has no sympathetic backstory, and he revels in his evil. Pure evil protagonists can work. They have worked just fine for ages. It's only recent that moral ambiguity and sympathetic motives have made their way into the spotlight. But I miss the traditional villains, like Maleficient or Scar or most Ganondorf incarnations.
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    I mean there's always Adam. He's a good example of someone who was just born evil.
     
    It should be worth noting that while Emerald and Cinder could have a sympathetic backstory, does that instantly mean their crimes are forgiven?

    I direct you to this clip from the Nostalgia Critic.

     
    thesevenwielder said:
    On the other hand, Bowser can be a pretty badass villain at times, he has no sympathetic backstory, and he revels in his evil. Pure evil protagonists can work. They have worked just fine for ages. It's only recent that moral ambiguity and sympathetic motives have made their way into the spotlight. But I miss the traditional villains, like Maleficient or Scar or most Ganondorf incarnations.
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    Least he has a backstory, right? (I haven't actually ever played any nintendo games)
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I meant done well. Like good evil villains you love to hate. Adam's just... ugh. He's the lame sort of evil.
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    I actually find Adam the most realistically evil person on the show. He's basically a self-important racist domestic abuser. It wouldn't take long to find a dozen people like Adam crawling all over the internet. I like Adam for the same reason I like Kylo Ren. They're basically holding up the typical Alt-Right asshole, not as some looming monster from the past but showing them to be the small and insecure sort of person who actually would dress in all black and follow in the footsteps of men like Hitler, Himmler, or Gobbles.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    It should be worth noting that while Emerald and Cinder could have a sympathetic backstory, does that instantly mean their crimes are forgiven?
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    The clip doesn't play but anyway, when has anyone suggested them, or really Em & to a lesser degree Merc, having a sympathetic backstory and the potential for redemption mean that their crimes are instantly forgiven? Or were you also arguing against the idea that people suggesting a redemption arc were leaning towards instant forgiveness?
     
    Zam said:
    The clip doesn't play but anyway, when has anyone suggested them, or really Em & to a lesser degree Merc, having a sympathetic backstory and the potential for redemption mean that their crimes are instantly forgiven? Or were you also arguing against the idea that people suggesting a redemption arc were leaning towards instant forgiveness?
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    Not sure, but usually the way shows do it, they both come hand in hand.
     
    Broken Base said:
    Why?
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    Partially because RWBY is written in a way that requires depth (read: the villains do nothing but stand around. So if we can't empathize with them, you get cinder syndrome where nobody likes or cares about them. See: volumes 4 and 5 where nobody cared about salem)

    Partially because if we're supposed to take the villain seriously they need to be menacing and scary or at least understandable and real, rather than cartoon characters that twirl their mustache while tying people to train tracks for no reason.

    If RWBY were another show where you don't need to take the villain super seriously (a saturday morning cartoon, campy, a comedy, light hearted, over the top, etc.) Then it wouldn't matter. This is what volumes 1&2 were like.

    If RWBY were a show where people do things instead of talking about them then villain depth would be less important (see: DBZ, it has top tier iconic villains but most of them aren't super fleshed out or deep or sympathetic, but they made good use of their loads of screen time and that made them compelling)

    in my opinion Cinder would be a perfect character if they changed literally nothing but gave her a minimum of 1 major fight per volume she appeared in, so would adam.
     
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    devilkingx2 said:
    Partially because RWBY is written in a way that requires depth (read: the villains do nothing but stand around. So if we can't empathize with them, you get cinder syndrome where nobody likes or cares about them. See: volumes 4 and 5 where nobody cared about salem)
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    I cared about Salem, I like seeing a competent dignified villain with a good sense of people management skills.
     
    Zam said:
    I cared about Salem, I like seeing a competent dignified villain with a good sense of people management skills.
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    I liked the novelty of a villain who was actually fair and reasonable. Rather than expecting her subordinates to bring her the moon and the stars then killing them for missing one. It at least makes sense why you would serve her over ozpin. (Ozpin lies and deceives, salem will be your mommy)

    However, a little bit of cool characterization here and there is nowhere near enough for two whole years/seasons. That's barely anything.

    It would've been nice to see salem give cinder the arm on screen and replace tyrian's tail with a grimm tail (maybe later changing to a robot tail for XYZ reason if that's gonna be important) and for salem to come and personally rescue her subordinates and recover the relic in volume 5. You know, actually doing stuff and not just pretending she's scary or a big deal for no reason.

    Imagine if Salem personally punished Cinder for her epic failure and we see her completely overpower and dominate a full power maiden who's fighting back then banished her in the weakened state we see in V6
     
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    devilkingx2 said:
    I liked the novelty of a villain who was actually fair and reasonable. Rather than expecting her subordinates to bring her the moon and the stars then killing them for missing one. It at least makes sense why you would serve her over ozpin. (Ozpin lies and deceives, salem will be your mommy)

    However, a little bit of cool characterization here and there is nowhere near enough for two whole years/seasons. That's barely anything.

    It would've been nice to see salem give cinder the arm on screen and replace tyrian's tail with a grimm tail (maybe later changing to a robot tail for XYZ reason if that's gonna be important) and for salem to come and personally rescue her subordinates and recover the relic in volume 5. You know, actually doing stuff and not just pretending she's scary or a big deal for no reason.

    Imagine if Salem personally punished Cinder for her epic failure and we see her completely overpower and dominate a full power maiden who's fighting back then banished her in the weakened state we see in V6
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    Agreed on the first paragraph if not sure I'd phrase the mommy bit like that XD

    I think it can work, I was mostly OK with it myself, if tempted with the desire for more.

    The arm scene could indeed have been neat though perhaps too graphic for the rating and I doubt Salem is a mechanic... Wouldn't be amazing if Salem has studied like, every field of magic, science and technology, and medicine in her time on Remnant and works to keep up to date on all of them? I want to see that XD

    Ia m less interested in Salem getting personally involved like that cos I assume either there is a reason she can't/won't or else her decision not to makes little sense, (Though her not wanting people to be united in fear of her would make pragmatic sense) but her appearance would also likely signal the end of her arc as antagonist and raise the question "Why hasn't she just killed all the heroes?" It'd be like the big bad behind the Sailor Moon villains coming out before the season finale, or the DBZ villains entering stage in their final form, it can work with some villains, but I do not think it works for Salem.
     
    I hope that we will learn what motivates Ruby sooner than later. Yes she wants to be a hero and save people, but why though? Everyone needs some sort of motivation. No reason for them to do what they do, act how they act. But we have none of that for Ruby. I think the most we know is that she apparently heard fairy tales when she was young? And that makes her sound like a twelve-year-old.
     
    Suzu said:
    Indoctrination as a result of being born in a society that glorifies its warrior class. :V
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    It's kinda dark if you think about it.

    Ozpin created a society where they glorify a thankless job fighting monsters and dying a not-so peaceful death. A society where they give children to men (who are nothing more than men) who whip them into shape, one of them working for Satan, another is one step away from becoming Big Brother, and the one who made all of this tasked with beginning Judgement Day...

    Remnant can be a dark as fuck setting if it wants to be.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I hope that we will learn what motivates Ruby sooner than later. Yes she wants to be a hero and save people, but why though? Everyone needs some sort of motivation. No reason for them to do what they do, act how they act. But we have none of that for Ruby. I think the most we know is that she apparently heard fairy tales when she was young? And that makes her sound like a twelve-year-old.
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    I assume it's similar to Super-Man or Captain America. She does what is right because it's the right thing to do.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I assume it's similar to Super-Man or Captain America. She does what is right because it's the right thing to do.
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    Both Superman and Captain America have reasons for doing what they do. Clark Kent was raised as a simple farmer with his parents instilling in him a strong sense of right and wrong. Captain America grew up helpless and sickly and was bullied on because he was small, and fights bad guys (bullies) to protect others.

    But we don't have that sort of justification for Ruby.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Both Superman and Captain America have reasons for doing what they do. Clark Kent was raised as a simple farmer with his parents instilling in him a strong sense of right and wrong. Captain America grew up helpless and sickly and was bullied on because he was small, and fights bad guys (bullies) to protect others.

    But we don't have that sort of justification for Ruby.
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    What? Both her parents were hunters and at least Tai seems to be a pretty stand up guy, if a bit goofy. Summer was likely the same (though Ruby might not remember her that well). If Superman gets a pass for being raised by good people who gave him a strong moral center then so should Ruby. This is a very odd line to take.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Both Superman and Captain America have reasons for doing what they do. Clark Kent was raised as a simple farmer with his parents instilling in him a strong sense of right and wrong. Captain America grew up helpless and sickly and was bullied on because he was small, and fights bad guys (bullies) to protect others.

    But we don't have that sort of justification for Ruby.
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    Oh, I know this one.
    Ruby was raised by hunters, who instilled in her a strong sense of right and wrong.
    Like, Superman's reason can be very easily made to fit Ruby. It's not like it's a complicated justification.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    It's kinda dark if you think about it.

    Ozpin created a society where they glorify a thankless job fighting monsters and dying a not-so peaceful death. A society where they give children to men (who are nothing more than men) who whip them into shape, one of them working for Satan, another is one step away from becoming Big Brother, and the one who made all of this tasked with beginning Judgement Day...

    Remnant can be a dark as fuck setting if it wants to be.
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    [Bridge]
    Were we born to fight and die?
    Sacrificed for one huge lie?
    Are we heroes keeping peace?
    Or are we weapons
    Pointed at the enemy
    So someone else can claim a victory?

    thesevenwielder said:
    Both Superman and Captain America have reasons for doing what they do. Clark Kent was raised as a simple farmer with his parents instilling in him a strong sense of right and wrong. Captain America grew up helpless and sickly and was bullied on because he was small, and fights bad guys (bullies) to protect others.

    But we don't have that sort of justification for Ruby.
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    I'm expecting the silver eyes to instill an insatiable desire to slay monsters or something

    Kind of like how the Will of D in one piece is implied to work.
     
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    Well I imagine it if nothing else not likely it is not likely going to be something crazy like Salem creating them as some sort of a gambit as part of a greater plan.
     
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    Zam said:
    I am extremely confused by this post, would you be able to clarify maybe?
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    That would be me getting distracted by my cat and thinking I typed everything I thought I was typing.

    I meant I suspect its unlikely that the business with silver eyes is somehow some sort of gambit by Salem as a part of a greater plan she would reveal later that would allow her to achieve her goals though that plan would be what I don't know given silver eyes so far only seems to effect grim and those with maiden powers which is why I think it would be unlikely.
     
    Alane1 said:
    That would be me getting distracted by my cat and thinking I typed everything I thought I was typing.

    I meant I suspect its unlikely that the business with silver eyes is somehow some sort of gambit by Salem as a part of a greater plan she would reveal later that would allow her to achieve her goals though that plan would be what I don't know given silver eyes so far only seems to effect grim and those with maiden powers which is why I think it would be unlikely.
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    Ah I see, that makes sense. Her wanting Ruby captured could definitely lean into that. Though I am pretty sure silver eyes don't affect Maidens or else Raven would have been impacted during the fight in V5.
     
    devilkingx2 said:
    Were we born to fight and die?
    Sacrificed for one huge lie?
    Are we heroes keeping peace?
    Or are we weapons
    Pointed at the enemy
    So someone else can claim a victory?
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    There was a quote that is perfect for this situation that I had posted before.

    Spiritual men sought to comfort those who were afraid of being killed by Salem (which included almost everyone, although many denied it in public) by promising another life after death, a life that would be free from the Grimm-scourge. Other orators argued that Salem has its place in the natural order and a moral right to kill. They said that it was part of the very meaning of being human to end up dying for Ozpin's cause. Others still maintained that Salem was good for the human species because it kept the population size down. To what extent these arguments convinced the worried souls is not known. Most people tried to cope by not thinking about the grim end that awaited them.
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    Zam said:
    Raven would have been impacted during the fight in V5.
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    Or it did, but RT didn't want to pull a Penny and reveal the plot twist too early.
     
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