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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • WhoAmEye said:
    If you can't overpower the enemy, you hack them. In the case of organics, 'hacking' means psychological warfare. Remember the whole reason Salem got the people to rise up against the gods in the first place? She realised they were fallible.

    In which case
    Salem: *hacker voice* I'm in
    God of Light: Excuse me
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    Because that worked out real well for her, didn't it? /s
     
    Dermonster said:
    Considering the two brothers have been feuding for who knows how long before they made Proto-Remnant, it's safe to assume that they've physically attacked each other more than once. I'm fairly certain the GoD would survive whatever comparatively miniscule force he uses to ahnihilate the planet if it blew up in his face.

    Again, they are not the type of enemies one kills. They are ones to talk down.
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    This is why I talked about is as a trap, turning heir energies into poisons, ETC.

    They don't exactly come across as reasonable or stable to me and I'd rather not have the one responsible for global genocide get off Scot free cos he got a talking to and decided not to kill everyone with his brother this time. Sorry but I really want there to be actual consequences for their global genocide and o global genocide plan over them just being allowed to carry on as all powerful supreme being that are accountable to no one.
     
    Also, regarding the Cinder vs Neo fight.

    Cinder isn't a slouch in CQC, either. She was fighting hand to hand during the entire first half of their fight.
     
    Zam said:
    I mean, she actually did very easily dupe the GoD if we're looking at it that way.
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    And again, how well did that go for her? How long did she get away with it? The answers are self-apparent and don't paint the brightest picture of one's chances to never have to face consequences for playing with fire.

    Like I mentioned above, the Greeks have a lot of stories about mortals thinking they were clever enough to trick the gods, and even when they were right, it rarely ended well for them. Not because the Greeks thought their gods were these pillars of morality who were always correct or right or even were extremely intelligent, but because even a fallible god is still a god, i.e. not something you should ever reckon with lightly or treat without due respect if you value your life.
     
    Leingod said:
    And again, how well did that go for her? How long did she get away with it? The answers are self-apparent and don't paint the brightest picture of one's chances to never have to face consequences for playing with fire.

    Like I mentioned above, the Greeks have a lot of stories about mortals thinking they were clever enough to trick the gods, and even when they were right, it rarely ended well for them. Not because the Greeks thought their gods were these pillars of morality who were always correct or right or even were extremely intelligent, but because even a fallible god is still a god, i.e. not something you should ever reckon with lightly or treat without due respect if you value your life.
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    You said them being fallible didn't mean they were dupes, but they were was my point. The gods flipping out in response is a separate matter.

    I don't really see what this has to do with anything, sorry.


    Though I was thinking about that 'Salem killing the gods' or even just de-powering them idea I floated. Given her clear and present respect for the use of research, tech ETC in Watts, Cinder's line about taking away what power people have and Salem's own, there will be no victory in strength.
    It'd feel very thematically fitting to me if she'd found a way to kill/de-power the gods that didn't rely on overpowering them but by knowing and understanding stuff. We know they aren't omnipresent given GoD could be tricked so I think it could be possible.
    Extra hilarious points if the gods really are all power no brains, they see their power as divine and simply exert their will on reality and never actually look into it beyond that, but Salem who spent thousands of year studying their curses, their energies understands their powers better than them even if she doesn't possess said power and can basically counter them based on that.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I don't think anyone is saying that she is currently blameless. Just that she was dealt an incredibly bad hand and Jinn's words run contrary to what is on screen, proving her bias.

    By the way those two pictures are the result of Cinder, not Salem. I doubt she micromanaged Cinder that much. Probably just told Cinder to cause chaos and get the Grimm to invade.
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    Bullshit. Where exactly do you think Cinder got a glove with Salem's symbol on it that let her summon a parasite Grimm that could suck out magical power and transfer it to Cinder by fusing it with her? A Grimm that Salem later taught Cinder to control as it formed a replacement arm for her, an arm that could also suck out Maiden powers and transfer them to Cinder.

    And how exactly did Cinder manage to ensure that Penny would face Pyrrha in the finals in the precise match where she planned to have Emerald play mind games? Why by using the Queen Virus to hack the tournament's systems. The virus that was created by doctor Arthur Watts, another one or Salem's servants and a man who personally despises Cinder and enjoys seeing her fail. There is no way in hell Cinder could have gotten him to give her that virus if Salem had not ordered him to do so.

    And while we're on the topic of Salem using one subordinate to give the other the tools they needed to kill: How did Cinder know that Amber was the Fall Maiden in the first place? How did she know where Amber was? And how was she able to infiltrate Beacon in the plan that called for murdering a student on live television? All of it was almost certainly because Leo was providing Salem with information and resources. Why was Leo working for Salem? Oh right, because Salem threatened to brutally murder him if he didn't, and the second he tried to jump ship she went through with the threat and brutally murdered him.


    Newsflash, being a leader means being responsible for the things your subordinates do. Especially the things you ordered them to do.

    The Fall of Beacon is a perfect example of why that is. None of Salem's subordinates could have carried it out on their own, and most of them wouldn't even have had any reason to want to do it without her ordering them to do it. Even Adam got brought on board partially by bribing him with vast quantities of Dust and Lien. You think Cinder could throw around that much money on her own? If she was that rich it's extremely unlikely that she would be so desperate for power in the first place. As Whitley put it, being a powerful fighter is beneath rich people, they can just hire people to fight for them. Not to mention that Cinder's Cinderella theme heavily suggests she's from a penniless and powerless background.


    VolantRedX said:
    By this logic mob bosses and dictators have done nothing wrong since they just gave orders and tools to their troops and didn't technically get involved.
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    Quoting this because it bears repeating.

    The one who ordered Cinder to kill Amber was Salem. The one who gave Cinder the tools to take Amber's power was Salem. The one who got Leo to turn traitor was Salem. The one who ordered the Breach and the Fall of Beacon was Salem. The one who got Watts to make the Queen Virus was Salem. The one who provided the cash to bribe Adam with and ordered Cinder to recruit him was Salem.

    Without Salem there would be no Fall of Beacon. It was her plan, she was the one who ordered it, and she was the one who provided the resources needed to make it happen.
     
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    Mook said:
    Bullshit. Where exactly do you think Cinder got a glove with Salem's symbol on it that let her summon a parasite Grimm that could suck out magical power and transfer it to Cinder by fusing it with her? A Grimm that Salem later taught Cinder to control as it formed a replacement arm for her, an arm that could also suck out Maiden powers and transfer them to Cinder.

    And how exactly did Cinder manage to ensure that Penny would face Pyrrha in the finals in the precise match where she planned to have Emerald play mind games? Why by using the Queen Virus to hack the tournament's systems. The virus that was created by doctor Arthur Watts, another one or Salem's servants and a man who personally despises Cinder and enjoys seeing her fail. There is no way in hell Cinder could have gotten him to give her that virus is Salem had not ordered him to do so.

    And while we're on the topic of Salem using one subordinate to give the other the tools they needed to kill: How did Cinder know that Amber was the Fall Maiden in the first place? How did she know where Amber was? And how was she able to infiltrate Beacon in the plan that called for murdering a student on live television? All of it was almost certainly because Leo was providing Salem with information and resources. Why was Leo working for Salem? Oh right, because Salem threatened to brutally murder him if he didn't, and the second he tried to jump ship she went through with the threat and brutally murdered him.


    Newsflash, being a leader means being responsible for the things your subordinates do. Especially the things you ordered them to do.

    The Fall of Beacon is a perfect example of why that is. None of Salem's subordinates could have carried it out on their own, and most of them wouldn't even have had any reason to want to do it without her ordering them to do it. Even Adam got brought on board partially by bribing him with vast quantities of Dust and Lien. You think Cinder could throw around that much money on her own? If she was that rich it's extremely unlikely that she would be so desperate for power in the first place. As Whitley put it, being a powerful fighter is beneath rich people, they can just hire people to fight for them. Not to mention that Cinder's Cinderella theme heavily suggests she's from a penniless and powerless background.



    Quoting this because it bears repeating.

    The one who ordered Cinder to kill Amber was Salem. The one who gave Cinder the tools to take Amber's power was Salem. The one who got Leo to turn traitor was Salem. The one who ordered the Breach and the Fall of Beacon was Salem. The one who got Watts to make the Queen Virus was Salem. The one who provided the cash to bribe Adam with and ordered Cinder to recruit him was Salem.

    Without Salem there would be no Fall of Beacon. It was her plan, she was the one who ordered it, and she was the one who provided the resources needed to make it happen.
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    100% agreed. I love me my bad girls, but Salem is no innocent woobie. What the Gods did to her was dickish, and what she's done since has been mega dickish.
     
    Mook said:
    Without Salem there would be no Fall of Beacon. It was her plan, she was the one who ordered it, and she was the one who provided the resources needed to make it happen.
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    In fact, I remember Salem explicitly congratulating Cinder for her season 3 actions.

    Oh, and I guess we can add 'murdering most of Mistral's hunters' on the list of things Salem did that weren't very nice. Unless we're trying to pretend 'oh no, Leo and Tyrian totally did that without her input'?
     
    Macros said:
    In fact, I remember Salem explicitly congratulating Cinder for her season 3 actions.

    Oh, and I guess we can add 'murdering most of Mistral's hunters' on the list of things Salem did that weren't very nice. Unless we're trying to pretend 'oh no, Leo and Tyrian totally did that without her input'?
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    Not to shift blame as the argument seems to be about, but I'm pretty sure Tyrian would do quite a bit without her input if he thought it was in her 'best interests.'

    Most of Salem's underlings seem to have the potential to go rogue for personal reasons, actually...
     
    Tikigod784 said:
    Not to shift blame as the argument seems to be about, but I'm pretty sure Tyrian would do quite a bit without her input if he thought it was in her 'best interests.'

    Most of Salem's underlings seem to have the potential to go rogue for personal reasons, actually...
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    Except as Salems speech in episode 4 goes she does not like it when her agents go rouge and put there personal desires above hers. This is why she is having Cinder prove herself before she can return.
     
    Just to be clear, I've no issue with Salem being blamed for stuff that she had had control over, IE, everything she's done against the modern world.

    I just hate holding her responsible for the destruction of the original people cos she didn't actually kill them, nor did she trick the GoD into doing so, nor did she have any direct control or orders over the one who did the killing. Her (And also the army of adults who knew thy were going to fight gods) actions ticking him off isn't the same as it being her fault basically is my view.
     
    Tikigod784 said:
    Not to shift blame as the argument seems to be about, but I'm pretty sure Tyrian would do quite a bit without her input if he thought it was in her 'best interests.'

    Most of Salem's underlings seem to have the potential to go rogue for personal reasons, actually...
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    Even if Tyrian did decide to go on a Huntsman murdering spree the fact is that Huntsmen and Huntresses are as a rule, pretty damn badass. I could see him taking out 2 or 3 on his own, maybe 4. But any more than that? Nope, even if his targets didn't spank his ass they should at least have been able to escape or at the very least call for help, putting the other Huntsmen on high alert and making them expect him.





    Just going by what we can see onscreen here Tyrian and Hazel killed at least 12 Huntsmen. Even with the two of them together its extremely unlikely that they could have managed that without sounding the alarm if not for Salem

    a) Having Leo feed them info and possibly also give their targets missions in isolated locations where they would be easy to ambush.
    b) Orchestrating the Fall of Beacon so that the CCT would be destroyed, ensuring that none of their victims could call for help while out in the wilderness.
     
    The counterpoint to 'maybe the people commiting genocide are morally wrong' seems to be 'they have so much power they can fuck up a moon so they can't be morally wrong'.
     
    Not sure if anyone pointed this out yet, but Cinder got her ass handed to her by Neo. It's hilarious just how outmatched she was before she brought out the Maiden powers. She didn't even land a hit. Most of the fight was against Neo's Solid Illusions.
     
    Tasrill said:
    The counterpoint to 'maybe the people commiting genocide are morally wrong' seems to be 'they have so much power they can fuck up a moon so they can't be morally wrong'.
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    Nice strawman there. No one is saying that genocide isn't wrong. What we are doing is pointing out that lying to people to get them to pick a fight that will almost certainly end with their demise is also wrong. Especially when your reaction to seeing that said "fight" did indeed lead to said demise while achieving nothing is to declare your intention to trick more people into marching to their deaths, just to fulfill your own personal vendetta.
     
    Mook said:
    Nice strawman there. No one is saying that genocide isn't wrong. What we are doing is pointing out that lying to people to get them to pick a fight that will almost certainly end with their demise is also wrong. Especially when your reaction to seeing that said "fight" did indeed lead to said demise while achieving nothing is to declare your intention to trick more people into marching to their deaths, just to fulfill your own personal vendetta.
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    Actually multiple people are saying that the gods aren't wrong in doing it because they are gods and therefor rule over mortals by their power. Though even taking that aside focusing on Salem using an army to commit personal vengeance when you have industrial baby murder on the other side seems very strange to me. It is focusing on jaywalking as the thing we need to talk about in murder, arson, and jaywalking. Doubly so when no matter who you look at it this is a change for the better from her previous characteristic of... being evil because she is evil and controls the grim. Though hilariously after that point she has genocide juice flowing through her veins corrupting her which kind of cuts down on her moral responsibility for the things she has done after that.
     
    DarkKing98 said:
    Not sure if anyone pointed this out yet, but Cinder got her ass handed to her by Neo. It's hilarious just how outmatched she was before she brought out the Maiden powers. She didn't even land a hit. Most of the fight was against Neo's Solid Illusions.
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    She was holding back. She wanted to talk to her, not kill her. She needs allies.
     
    Tasrill said:
    Though even taking that aside focusing on Salem using an army to commit personal vengeance when you have industrial baby murder on the other side seems very strange to me. It is focusing on jaywalking as the thing we need to talk about in murder, arson, and jaywalking.
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    Not that strange, because to use your metaphor, murder and arson only happened because of jaywalking. In fact, the one doing murder and arson did it because someone illegally crossed the road with the intent to kill him.

    As I see it, by leading an army in a war against the gods, Salem ends up responsible for what happen to said army - and that's not even touching the fact that she led them under false pretense. That said army ends up entirely annihilated? That's on her. That she doesn't give a damn and wants to do it all over again? That's also on her.

    That the gods have no concept of proportionate retribution and apparently believe in shared responsibilities? That's on them.
     
    Macros said:
    Not that strange, because to use your metaphor, murder and arson only happened because of jaywalking. In fact, the one doing murder and arson did it because someone illegally crossed the road with the intent to kill him.

    As I see it, by leading an army in a war against the gods, Salem ends up responsible for what happen to said army - and that's not even touching the fact that she led them under false pretense. That said army ends up entirely annihilated? That's on her. That she doesn't give a damn and wants to do it all over again? That's also on her.

    That the gods have no concept of proportionate retribution and apparently believe in shared responsibilities? That's on them.
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    Given the army was about as threatening to the gods as ants and the last time a human offended them they gave her a 'spiritual quest' I think I can safely hold the murder of the army and the whole species against the GoD given everyone else had nothing to do with it. If a toddlers leads a gang of others toddlers against a day care teacher and all the toddlers are killed, who is the court going to hold more responsible for the deaths of the toddlers? Yeah the army was adults who are smarter than toddlers, but they posed even less threat to the gods so the "intent to kill' thing feels like a weak justification to me.
     
    DarkKing98 said:
    I keep seeing that being said. But honestly, sounds more like fanboys defending their favorite. Also, choosing someone that clearly wants you dead as an ally? Not a smart decision.
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    Really? Then explain why Cinder spent 80% of the fight fighting purely with her bare hands instead of shooting streams of fire, conjuring up explosions, creating glass weapons, showering Neo with glass shards, shooting beams of ice/lightning/wind/etc or any of the dozens of other methods she has of escalating.

    Even leaving aside the fact that she was clearly trying to talk Neo the fact remains that she is a wanted fugitive with practically no resources and simply can't afford to make a scene even if she wanted Neo dead.

    As for whether its smart or not? This wouldn't be the first time Cinder did so and if not for the Spring Maiden switcheroo she would have gotten one over Raven in that confrontation. Neo might attempt to backstab Cinder at some point, but I would not put any Lien on that going well for her.
     
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