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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Leingod said:
    No. Why do people keep thinking that the heroes are trying to gather the Relics? They're trying to keep them safe from Salem, nothing more and nothing less. The Haven Vault is compromised, so they're taking it to a more secure location. That's the long and short of it.
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    I mean that the Gods have in fact left humanity to it own devices.
     
    Mook said:
    Don't get me wrong, I love Salem as a character and I have a lot of sympathy for her. But I find it a bit annoying how people now treat her as if she had no agency and that every evil deed she's ever committed is suddenly ok because she has a tragic backstory and the gods were dicks. I feel like we're kind of forgetting that Salem has done a lot of fucked up shit without any involvement on the part of the Gods.
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    I don't think anyone is saying that she is currently blameless. Just that she was dealt an incredibly bad hand and Jinn's words run contrary to what is on screen, proving her bias.

    By the way those two pictures are the result of Cinder, not Salem. I doubt she micromanaged Cinder that much. Probably just told Cinder to cause chaos and get the Grimm to invade.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    By the way those two pictures are the result of Cinder, not Salem.
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    The first picture is Salem, aka drain her maiden power so that you can open the door to one of the 4 keys to summoning the gods back cause clearly bring back entities that have committed genocide will clearly end well.
    Cause you know I rather piss them off more then get on with doing something productive.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I don't think anyone is saying that she is currently blameless. Just that she was dealt an incredibly bad hand and Jinn's words run contrary to what is on screen, proving her bias.
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    In what ways do Jinn's words not match up with what is on screen, especially considering what is on screen is Jinn's doing as well. She's not just telling the story, she's basically creating a VR simulation where team RWBY and friends get to see what happened in the past.
     
    SpeckofStardust said:
    I mean that the Gods have in fact left humanity to it own devices.
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    Oh. Yeah, pretty much, they're not coming back until the Relics are brought together. Therein lies the problem: the gods returning and being convinced both of humanity's worth and that they need to deal with Salem one way or the other is basically the only way to permanently get rid of the threat she represents. Best case scenario, Salem might be convinced to finally learn the lesson she was meant to and the gods finally let her and Ozma pass on to the afterlife in peace.

    VolantRedX said:
    In what ways do Jinn's words not match up with what is on screen, especially considering what is on screen is Jinn's doing as well. She's not just telling the story, she's basically creating a VR simulation where team RWBY and friends get to see what happened in the past.
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    He's probably referring to the parts where Jinn is explaining the characters' inner motivations and such, like how Ozma was motivated solely by a desire to do the right thing or that Salem was selfish and refused to acknowledge any blame in herself for what happened, likely under the logic that Jinn is a constructed created by the Bright Brother and thus is biased.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    To add something here the way the GoL says "this world is a beautiful experiment" brings to mind more an artist lamenting a painting he made didn't turn out right. Like Michelangelo trying a fresco for the first time.
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    That doesn't really change my point.

    Macros said:
    Well, they ARE aliens, so it's kinda pointless to try to constrain them via human morality. I've never been a big fan of the Rage Against the Heavens kind of story, but when it comes to your standard mythologic god, I think the Greeks have the right idea: just try to be ignored by them, it makes everything easier.

    And honestly, I do think there's a decent chance the story ends exactly like that. The relics are gathered, Humanity is still found wanting, because frankly the standards seem unrealistically high, but someone (Ruby?) manage to argue that hey, you don't HAVE to destroy everything, just let humans live in a god-less world and go do your own thing in space, or something.
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    If they want to dictate human morality I think they can well be judged by it.

    I'd rather Salem just kill them myself.

    Mook said:
    Cool beans. Can we then have the ghost of Amber show up and use a Grimm Parasite to suck out all of Salem's newfound divine power, along with her original magical power while saying "I'm taking back what is mine." before chucking the now helpless but still immortal Salem to the moon?

    Don't get me wrong, I love Salem as a character and I have a lot of sympathy for her. But I find it a bit annoying how people now treat her as if she had no agency and that every evil deed she's ever committed is suddenly ok because she has a tragic backstory and the gods were dicks. I feel like we're kind of forgetting that Salem has done a lot of fucked up shit without any involvement on the part of the Gods.



    And frankly if we're going to give ultimate supreme power to characters in the show so that they can dish out karmic retribution I would rather give that power to cinnamon rolls who can un-ironically use the "I have done nothing wrong, ever, in my life" meme rather than the person who is responsible for them being brutally murdered.
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    When did I ever argue Salem was not responsible for her evil acts? I just hate people acting like she's responsible for the GoD being a temperamental murderous brat and killing everyone.

    Plus this isn't meant to make Salem a hero, like she'd still need to be defeated herself, I just find amusement and catharsis in one of the people actively screwed over by the gods to be the one to kill them.
     
    Zam said:
    Plus this isn't meant to make Salem a hero, like she'd still need to be defeated herself, I just find amusement and catharsis in one of the people actively screwed over by the gods to be the one to kill them.
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    The possibility of her ever doing so however is frankly zero. Especially considering how she's going about doing it.
     
    Mook said:
    I feel like we're kind of forgetting that Salem has done a lot of fucked up shit without any involvement on the part of the Gods.
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    That's a funny way of spelling Cinder.

    I know we've been through this before, but dude, Cinder was behind all that. Yes, Salem was behind Cinder, but Cinder personally saw to them
     
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    Psyga315 said:
    That's a funny way of spelling Cinder.

    I know we've been through this before, but dude, Cinder was behind all that. Yes, Salem was behind Cinder, but Cinder personally saw to them
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    By this logic mob bosses and dictators have done nothing wrong since they just gave orders and tools to their troops and didn't technically get involved.
     
    Feels weird to me people are blaming Salem for Cinder's actions and for the GoD's.

    Like, I am fine with holding Salem as accountable for Cinder's acts as Cinder herself cos she is Cinder's boss.

    But given people also try and lay the blame (Or some of the blame) of all humanity at the GoD's hands at her feet, even though the GoD is the one with all the power in that situations...

    That feels off.
     
    Zam said:
    But given people also try and lay the blame (Or some of the blame) of all humanity at the GoD's hands at her feet, even though the GoD is the one with all the power in that situations...
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    Where? When he wiped out humans for being willing to try to turn his own gifts to them against him and kill him, not for any ethical or moral reason, but out of pure naked greed for his and his brother's power?

    Like, yeah, it's pretty damn screwed up to wipe out the entire species when a bunch of uppity warlords lead an army to your doorstep, but what else can you expect when you roll into a god's crib and call him out? Especially when one of them is a god of destruction. That's like mooning Zeus, calling him a bitch, then acting surprised when he smites your ass with lightning.

    The people just minding their business didn't deserve what they got, I can't fathom why you think anyone ever argued that. The people who thought that a chance of immortality was worth slaughtering their creators for are a bit less clear-cut, but are beside the point in any case.

    But Salem chose to do the equivalent of asking Dad for something after Mom already said "No." Not evil, but definitely foolish. She then decided to try to attack them when they deprived her of what she wanted because she had tried to trick a god. Not evil, but still, foolish. They punished her by making her immortal until she learned a lesson about the importance of life and death. Dick move, no doubt, but they at least gave her an out, which is a lot more than most gods do.

    Instead of even thinking to pursue that out, though, Salem then decided to con an entire army of people into making a futile stand against the gods, promising them immortality and divine power. That? That's selfish as hell. It's also pretty morally gray, at best.

    And when it fails, and her army is killed? She never spares them a thought and loudly yells that she'll just do the whole thing again, even bigger this time. And that's evil, as well as selfish. Salem literally proclaimed out loud that she would lead as many people to their deaths as need be just so she could get revenge.

    So, yeah, Salem does in fact deserve part of the blame for the eradication of the first iteration of humanity. Because she tricked and misled the people into getting slaughtered in a battle they had no chance of winning, all for the faintest shot at personal revenge, and didn't show the slightest bit of remorse for it until she realized she couldn't just do it all over again because the gods decided to wipe the slate clean and go back to the drawing board instead of just sitting around waiting for another attempt at deicide.
     
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    I'm just sitting here thinking about how they all kinda need to die. Problem is, I'm gonna be pissed if GoL dying removes aura, semblances and dust. Screw that noise- RWBY is more fun as a sci-fi and the godbros/Salem are standing in the way of that. /s

    Also, weird fan theory: Taiyang is GoL.

    Also in response to the @Leingod post above: "no one ever stops."
     
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    Leingod said:
    Where?
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    VolantRedX said:
    I never once said the GoD actions were right or justified, just that Salem shares some of the blame as well. Like I said before the gods are purely reactive, Salem does something wrong and the gods react to it.
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    Leingod said:
    When he wiped out humans for being willing to try to turn his own gifts to them against him and kill him, not for any ethical or moral reason, but out of pure naked greed for his and his brother's power?

    Like, yeah, it's pretty damn screwed up to wipe out the entire species when a bunch of uppity warlords lead an army to your doorstep, but what else can you expect when you roll into a god's crib and call him out? Especially when one of them is a god of destruction. That's like mooning Zeus, calling him a bitch, then acting surprised when he smites your ass with lightning.
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    You realize your words sound like "I mean what do you expect if you anger a violent drunk? Not to get your head smashed in with a bar stool murdering you?" Like, I don't care if the god's an asshole, I still judge him based on the morality of his actions and he's a monster, who can't even justify his actions because he was in no way in any danger.

    Leingod said:
    The people just minding their business didn't deserve what they got, I can't fathom why you think anyone ever argued that. The people who thought that a chance of immortality was worth slaughtering their creators for are a bit less clear-cut, but are beside the point in any case.
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    Literally nothing in my post said that.

    Leingod said:
    But Salem chose to do the equivalent of asking Dad for something after Mom already said "No." Not evil, but definitely foolish. She then decided to try to attack them when they deprived her of what she wanted because she had tried to trick a god. Not evil, but still, foolish. They punished her by making her immortal until she learned a lesson about the importance of life and death. Dick move, no doubt, but they at least gave her an out, which is a lot more than most gods do.

    Instead of even thinking to pursue that out, though, Salem then decided to con an entire army of people into making a futile stand against the gods, promising them immortality and divine power. That? That's selfish as hell. It's also pretty morally gray, at best.

    And when it fails, and her army is killed? She never spares them a thought and loudly yells that she'll just do the whole thing again, even bigger this time. And that's evil, as well as selfish. Salem literally proclaimed out loud that she would lead as many people to their deaths as need be just so she could get revenge.

    So, yeah, Salem does in fact deserve part of the blame for the eradication of the first iteration of humanity. Because she tricked and misled the people into getting slaughtered in a battle they had no chance of winning, all for the faintest shot at personal revenge, and didn't show the slightest bit of remorse for it until she realized she couldn't just do it all over again because the gods decided to wipe the slate clean and go back to the drawing board instead of just sitting around waiting for another attempt at deicide.
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    The first paragraph has nothing to do with what we are discussing and basically falls back into that "She dared 'goad' a deity by not being totally submissive to their will, thus the consequences of their abuse is on her.)

    The warlords weren't children, if they were I could agree with you, but they were all adults wholly cognizant as to what they were doing and why. If we're doing the 'misled people to their death' thing, then can people start accepting Ozpin does that with actual children over the leaders of powerful nations who actually knew they were going to pick fights with gods?

    The GoD didn't show nay remorse either and he's the one who actually, you know, killed everyone when he didn't need to.
     
    I think the main problem is that well they are Gods they most likely operate on a Blue to Orange Morality scale when we try to quantify there actions when compared to human actions of a similar scale.

    So for all we know the gods board wiping the whole of Remnant for what Salem did was perfectly alright to them. Making her immortal to teach her a lesson is also fine etc.
     
    Tython82 said:
    I think the main problem is that well they are Gods they most likely operate on a Blue to Orange Morality scale when we try to quantify there actions when compared to human actions of a similar scale.

    So for all we know the gods board wiping the whole of Remnant for what Salem did was perfectly alright to them. Making her immortal to teach her a lesson is also fine etc.
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    While that is distinctly possible, given their actions impacted humans and they try to lecture humans on morality I think it is perfectly fine to judge them within those kind of bounds. That's my take anyway.
     
    I tend not to like the "Blue and Orange" terminology. I think it's more appropriate to say that the gods are fairly amoral. The D&D approach of "good and evil" doesn't really fit here, simply because they're a little bit more abstract than that. Law and Chaos work, but not quite comprehensively, either.

    Note that they don't talk about good and evil, they don't call Salem "evil." They're more about ethics than morals. The god of creation and light wants people to be united and harmonious, because that's what he is. The god of destruction and darkness wants people to be fractious and free-willed, because that's what he is. They want humans, who are their joint creation, to choose to be more like themselves than their brother. But neither takes kindly to their creations trying to deceive, attack or overthrow them, for obvious reasons, and they react with typical deific overreaction.

    And at the end of the day, moral castigation probably isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It's like trying to take Zeus to task over what a shithead he is. It's pointless at best, pointless and dangerous at worst. Because a god doesn't have to be literally all-powerful to be close enough as far as your chances of survival against them are concerned.
     
    Leingod said:
    I tend not to like the "Blue and Orange" terminology. I think it's more appropriate to say that the gods are fairly amoral. The D&D approach of "good and evil" doesn't really fit here, simply because they're a little bit more abstract than that. Law and Chaos work, but not quite comprehensively, either.

    Note that they don't talk about good and evil, they don't call Salem "evil." They're more about ethics than morals. The god of creation and light wants people to be united and harmonious, because that's what he is. The god of destruction and darkness wants people to be fractious and free-willed, because that's what he is. They want humans, who are their joint creation, to choose to be more like themselves than their brother. But neither takes kindly to their creations trying to deceive, attack or overthrow them, for obvious reasons, and they react with typical deific overreaction.

    And at the end of the day, moral castigation probably isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It's like trying to take Zeus to task over what a shithead he is. It's pointless at best, pointless and dangerous at worst. Because a god doesn't have to be literally all-powerful to be close enough as far as your chances of survival against them are concerned.
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    When did the GoD say he wanted people to be fractious? Wasn't his whole early destructive thing just spiting his brother, or did I forget something? Thoguh given he plans to come back and murder everyone down to the last mewling babe in its crib if people aren't harmonious enough I think the GoL is very much 'do as I say, not as I do'.

    This is why I want Salem to kill them, let them have their own deific over reaction, so long as they pay for it eventually XD
     
    Zam said:
    When did the GoD say he wanted people to be fractious? Wasn't his whole early destructive thing just spiting his brother, or did I forget something? Thoguh given he plans to come back and murder everyone down to the last mewling babe in its crib if people aren't harmonious enough I think the GoL is very much 'do as I say, not as I do'.

    This is why I want Salem to kill them, let them have their own deific over reaction, so long as they pay for it eventually XD
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    Did you see the bit where a literal army of Magic humans did jack shit to the GoD, and then he wiped out the entire planet and casually shattered the moon?

    The gods are not entities that are able to be defeated with force of arms. There is no 'fighting back'. The closest you can get is to try to talk the GoD down.
     
    Dermonster said:
    Did you see the bit where a literal army of Magic humans did jack shit to the GoD, and then he wiped out the entire planet and casually shattered the moon?

    The gods are not entities that are able to be defeated with force of arms. There is no 'fighting back'. The closest you can get is to try to talk the GoD down.
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    I never said Salem killing them would be in fisticuffs, I more meant like lay a trap for them so when they come back and decide people aren't living up to their arbitrary standards and begin the genocide attack, their power recirculates back into them as like a poison and kills them cos of some trick Salem set up ahead of time.
     
    Zam said:
    I never said Salem killing them would be in fisticuffs, I more meant like lay a trap for them so when they come back and decide people aren't living up to their arbitrary standards and begin the genocide attack, their power recirculates back into them as like a poison and kills them cos of some trick Salem set up ahead of time.
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    Considering the two brothers have been feuding for who knows how long before they made Proto-Remnant, it's safe to assume that they've physically attacked each other more than once. I'm fairly certain the GoD would survive whatever comparatively miniscule force he uses to ahnihilate the planet if it blew up in his face.

    Again, they are not the type of enemies one kills. They are ones to talk down.
     
    If you can't overpower the enemy, you hack them. In the case of organics, 'hacking' means psychological warfare. Remember the whole reason Salem got the people to rise up against the gods in the first place? She realised they were fallible.

    In which case
    Salem: *hacker voice* I'm in
    God of Light: Excuse me
     
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