RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Psyga315 · Nov 28, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
Literally all she did was ask for him to resurrect Oz.

While omitting that she asked the Light God the same.

Sworl said:
not to extend life indefinitely or recycle souls through other peoples bodies

If that's the case, Ozpin fucked up that law pretty good with Amber and Pyrrha.

VolantRedX said:
Salem also has dialogue in that scene, where she outright says she came to him first, knew no one else had that power, and that she knows he's more powerful than anyone else.

Well at 10:10 Jinn says that Salem's attempts to kill herself no longer were about reuniting with Ozma and became acts of spite and defiance towards the gods, which then drives her to realize that the gods were fallible and if she gathered an army they could attack the gods (an army she recruits with lies and manipulates with stories of riches and rewards for the kings and queens of her world.) Then at 13:40 Jinn says "She [Salem] was alone. She cursed the gods, she cursed the universe, she cursed everyone and everything...except herself".

We should keep in mind that Jinn was made by the Light God... so there miiiight be some bias.

BBBence1111 · Nov 28, 2018

VolantRedX said:
Salem also has dialogue in that scene, where she outright says she came to him first, knew no one else had that power, and that she knows he's more powerful than anyone else.

That is, in fact, not true. Salem says "No." in the GoL's place and the next time she talks she's telling Ozma that everything is okay.

And to the rest... Jinn literally says that her attempts to reunite with Ozma eventually became acts of defiance. And can you blame her for that?

Lieing to people and getting them to attack the gods was not in any way nice, but again, I can't fault her for it. She though they could be beaten.

Fornot cursing herself... The only questionable thing in this whole thing was her getting people to oppose the gods, which recieved a massively inappropriate response. I too would curse them for it.

thesevenwielder · Nov 28, 2018

Tython82 said:
She did lie about the fact that she did go see his brother first. A lie of Omission yes but a lie all the same since if he knew that she had gone to his brother first and was told that he said NO to the ressurection then he would not have done it in accordance with there rules.

So you condemn Ozpin for doing the same throughout his lifetimes. Just so we are being fair and all. It would be such a shame to be accused of double standards.

I I would also like to take this time to correct the misconception that the gods are trying to teach Salem some sort of lesson. They did not place any sort of conditions on her immortality, just that as long as the world turned she would be immortal. So even if she did somehow learn to appreciate life and death, she would still be unable to be at peace.

VolantRedX said:
Then at 13:40 Jinn says "She [Salem] was alone. She cursed the gods, she cursed the universe, she cursed everyone and everything...except herself".

How can you blame her? For having the temerity to go to the light god's brother she's was cursed with immortality. At this point all she did was the equivalent of going to Dad after Mom said no. And she was still cursed even though she hadn't done anything. Then the dark god decides to kill everyone except for her. Why should she blame herself for that?

Tython82 · Nov 28, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
So you condemn Ozpin for doing the same throughout his lifetimes. Just so we are being fair and all. It would be such a shame to be accused of double standards.

I condem him for his lies yes. But in hindsight his lies were for the greater good(in theory) Salem's reasons for lieing however were for completely selfish reasons.

VolantRedX · Nov 28, 2018

Psyga315 said:
We should keep in mind that Jinn was made by the Light God... so there miiiight be some bias.

If she was inclined to lie in order to make the Light God look good then why spend so much time explaining Salem's motives. The debate at least for me isn't if Salem is a horrible monster with no redeeming qualities or a pure and blameless victim who is being tormented for things outside her control. Salem is the best kind of villain, she's relatable enough to understand why she does evil things, but whose actions cannot be reasonably defended.

BBBence1111 said:
And to the rest... Jinn literally says that her attempts to reunite with Ozma eventually became acts of defiance. And can you blame her for that?

thesevenwielder said:
I I would also like to take this time to correct the misconception that the gods are trying to teach Salem some sort of lesson. They did not place any sort of conditions on her immortality, just that as long as the world turned she would be immortal. So even if she did somehow learn to appreciate life and death, she would still be unable to be at peace.

Except for the Light God outright tells her how to reunite with Ozma. Her immortality was conditional. At 9:50 the Light God outright says "You must learn the importance of life and death, only then may you rest". She was given a task and set about to do it, and in turn, totally refused. Salem's immortality was conditional on her learning the value of life and death, and why having both is important. She never even tried.

thesevenwielder said:
How can you blame her? For having the temerity to go to the light god's brother she's was cursed with immortality. At this point all she did was the equivalent of going to Dad after Mom said no. And she was still cursed even though she hadn't done anything. Then the dark god decides to kill everyone except for her. Why should she blame herself for that?

Because it's not like they did it just because. She lied and manipulated the situation in order to start a war and it's her actions alone that set off every event in the tale. At no point do the gods act first. If she had simply taken no for an answer none of this would have happened, if she had tried to understand why the gods had cursed her none of this would have happened, if she hadn't led a crusade against the gods none of this would have happened. She's the cause of her own suffering.

thesevenwielder · Nov 28, 2018

VolantRedX said:
If she was inclined to lie in order to make the Light God look good then why spend so much time explaining Salem's motives. The debate at least for me isn't if Salem is a horrible monster with no redeeming qualities or a pure and blameless victim who is being tormented for things outside her control. Salem is the best kind of villain, she's relatable enough to understand why she does evil things, but whose actions cannot be reasonably defended.

Except for the Light God outright tells her how to reunite with Ozma. Her immortality was conditional. At 9:50 the Light God outright says "You must learn the importance of life and death, only then may you rest". She was given a task and set about to do it, and in turn, totally refused. Salem's immortality was conditional on her learning the value of life and death, and why having both is important. She never even tried.

Because it's not like they did it just because. She lied and manipulated the situation in order to start a war and it's her actions alone that set off every event in the tale. At no point do the gods act first. If she had simply taken no for an answer none of this would have happened, if she had tried to understand why the gods had cursed her none of this would have happened, if she hadn't led a crusade against the gods none of this would have happened. She's the cause of her own suffering.

I wonder how Salem got the creepy veins. When we see her after she is cursed, she has pale skin and dark eyes, but her skin is unmarked

VolantRedX · Nov 28, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
I wonder how Salem got the creepy veins. When we see her after she is cursed, she has pale skin and dark eyes, but her skin is unmarked

I imagine her use of dark magic and the Grimm hasn't been good for her complexion.

Tasrill · Nov 28, 2018

VolantRedX said:
Because it's not like they did it just because. She lied and manipulated the situation in order to start a war and it's her actions alone that set off every event in the tale. At no point do the gods act first. If she had simply taken no for an answer none of this would have happened, if she had tried to understand why the gods had cursed her none of this would have happened, if she hadn't led a crusade against the gods none of this would have happened. She's the cause of her own suffering.

Let's ask this in simple terms. Is omnicide a reasonable reaction to having the person you cursed not learning her lesson and starting a war? If it isn't reasonable then why is she at fault for the death of an entire planet and not the god who did it and the other god who was like 'yeah good job bro now lets ditch this joint'? Salem has done some things but tosing the death of an entire planet on her because she didn't learn from her curse the lesson two dudes wanted her to seems a bit much to put it lightly.

Zam · Nov 28, 2018

Tasrill said:
So I have watched the first 4 new episodes and my general feelings are 'fuck gods'. I mean I could maybe look over the whole 'you need to learn the true meaning of death so ironic punishment for you' if they didn't back it up with genociding the entire planet as a solution to someone not learning from their ironic punishment. So Salem was right to try and kill the gods as they are amoral monsters even if she did it for the wrong reasons. How many seasons do we have to wait before Team RWBY is practicing Deicide?

Gosh what a mood, I'd also be cool with Salem calling back the gods and when they refuse to kill her and instead to decide to murder everyone down to the last child for not being 'harmonious' enough, she turns their power on them and as they are being destroyed by their own strength one of them rattles off some angry line and she can turn their own words against them in some way, either new words or maybe like "Demanding things, of your creations?" before smirking as they fade away.

BBBence1111 said:
I mean, it's not wrong. It glosses over the fact that Salem wanted to replace new!humanity with her offspring, but she did only what any reasonable person would do when a loved one dies and not one, but two gods are right there. Her punishment was wildly out of proportion and unneccessary. And then wiping out everyone but her? Simply cruel.

Are we still sure she wasn't talking about them replacing the gods and just not doing the mission/calling them back?
Plus even then, she couldn't replace current people without her kids having relationships with them and it seems unlikely she wanted to build a new world on unsustainable incest.

Sworl said:
I should point out that we never heard what the specifics of the rules were because Salem interrupted the GoL before he could finish speaking.
Not that this justifies what he did to Salem, but we don't know if he is a hypocrite.
For example maybe the rule is not to bring back the dead as they were in life, rather than not to extend life indefinitely or recycle souls through other peoples bodies (assuming the rules still applied by the time the Gods had abandoned Remant when GoL sent Ozma back).

Whatever the rules were the GoD clearly didn't think they mattered and the GoL seemed more focused on maintaining his sense of order than any kind of negative consequences for bringing back the dead so I think he just disliked the experiment going off parameters myself.

Tasrill said:
Let's ask this in simple terms. Is omnicide a reasonable reaction to having the person you cursed not learning her lesson and starting a war? If it isn't reasonable then why is she at fault for the death of an entire planet and not the god who did it and the other god who was like 'yeah good job bro now lets ditch this joint'? Salem has done some things but tosing the death of an entire planet on her because she didn't learn from her curse the lesson two dudes wanted her to seems a bit much to put it lightly.

Yeah I really can't comprehend or agree with the idea Salem is somehow responsible for the GoD nuking everyone, she can't force the gods to do anything nor did he have any pressing need to do so, nor even a justification given all the babies and un-involved people who he killed with his actions.

TheOtherSandman · Nov 28, 2018

Tasrill said:
Let's ask this in simple terms. Is omnicide a reasonable reaction to having the person you cursed not learning her lesson and starting a war? If it isn't reasonable then why is she at fault for the death of an entire planet and not the god who did it and the other god who was like 'yeah good job bro now lets ditch this joint'? Salem has done some things but tosing the death of an entire planet on her because she didn't learn from her curse the lesson two dudes wanted her to seems a bit much to put it lightly.

If even the Greeks look at your gods and go, "Damn, they're assholes," you might want to tone it down.

Macros · Nov 28, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
God of Light: The cycle of Life and Death are important

Also God of Light: *makes Salem and Oz immortal, completely breaking the cycle*

Yeah sure, the rules are REAL important to the gods.

Zam said:
Whatever the rules were the GoD clearly didn't think they mattered and the GoL seemed more focused on maintaining his sense of order than any kind of negative consequences for bringing back the dead so I think he just disliked the experiment going off parameters myself.

Actually, it seems to me the rules the God of Light refers to aren't some universal cosmic rules, but simply the terms of agreement he has with the God of Darkness. He says as much when speaking with his brother and convincing him to not resurrect Ozma. Probably something akin to "ok, you stop destroying everything I'm making, and in turn my creations come with an expiration date I won't tamper with".

At least it would explain:
-why the God of Darkness felt there was nothing wrong with him bringing back someone to life (him doing so wasn't a casus belli against his Brother, or at least he didn't think it was - it probably was the first time such a situation arose)
-why the God of Light felt there was nothing wrong with making Ozpin reincarnate again and again ("Brother, you just destroyed a bajillion people, you can let me have this one!")

(in the same vein, making Salem immortal is okay as long as the two of them agree on it)

VolantRedX · Nov 28, 2018

Tasrill said:
Let's ask this in simple terms. Is omnicide a reasonable reaction to having the person you cursed not learning her lesson and starting a war? If it isn't reasonable then why is she at fault for the death of an entire planet and not the god who did it and the other god who was like 'yeah good job bro now lets ditch this joint'? Salem has done some things but tosing the death of an entire planet on her because she didn't learn from her curse the lesson two dudes wanted her to seems a bit much to put it lightly.

I never once said the GoD actions were right or justified, just that Salem shares some of the blame as well. Like I said before the gods are purely reactive, Salem does something wrong and the gods react to it.

Zam · Nov 28, 2018

Macros said:
Actually, it seems to me the rules the God of Light refers to aren't some universal cosmic rules, but simply the terms of agreement he has with the God of Darkness. He says as much when speaking with his brother and convincing him to not resurrect Ozma. Probably something akin to "ok, you stop destroying everything I'm making, and in turn my creations come with an expiration date I won't tamper with".

At least it would explain:
-why the God of Darkness felt there was nothing wrong with him bringing back someone to life (him doing so wasn't a casus belli against his Brother, or at least he didn't think it was - it probably was the first time such a situation arose)
-why the God of Light felt there was nothing wrong with making Ozpin reincarnate again and again ("Brother, you just destroyed a bajillion people, you can let me have this one!")

(in the same vein, making Salem immortal is okay as long as the two of them agree on it)

That is my take as well, though given the line about Remnant being an experiment and the GoD feeling the 'rules' benefit the GoL I'm unsure of the specifics, but yeah, death seems entirely arbitrary, as does the 'balance' between life and death and everything else. It is all just two gods experimenting on sentient creatures and lashing out when their experiment doesn't behave itself. At least to me.

Macros · Nov 28, 2018

Zam said:
It is all just two gods experimenting on sentient creatures and lashing out when their experiment doesn't behave itself. At least to me.

I can agree with the general idea, but I'd argue that if your creations come to your doorstep to murder you in order to become immortal, there's a strong case to be made in favour of just starting over.

Zam · Nov 28, 2018

Macros said:
I can agree with the general idea, but I'd argue that if your creations come to your doorstep to murder you in order to become immortal, there's a strong case to be made in favour of just starting over.

If the entire species had done so I might agree, but again, the GoD murdered children, babies, and millions of civilians who had nothing to do with what went down.

Leingod · Nov 28, 2018

Macros said:
I can agree with the general idea, but I'd argue that if your creations come to your doorstep to murder you in order to become immortal, there's a strong case to be made in favour of just starting over.

Pretty much. Again, this wasn't because they believed the gods had done some great injustice or whatever; this was nothing but a naked power grab after being fed lies by Salem. There was no pretext of justice or idealism here, they were literally there to kill the gods and take their power simply because they were led to believe they could get away with it. Gods of various mythologies have done just as bad for a lot less than that.

Granted, the Dark Brother then wiping out every human being except Salem is over-the-top and disproportionate, but again, gods have done just as bad for a lot less everywhere. See: Pretty much every myth involving a Deluge that wipes out all humanity except for a single family.

Macros · Nov 28, 2018

Zam said:
If the entire species had done so I might agree, but again, the GoD murdered children, babies, and millions of civilians who had nothing to do with what went down.

Well sure, it's pretty clear the God of Darkness is rather mercurial, and the punishment isn't really a proportionate response. But that's really something one should expect when dealing with gods. Plus, I'm sure Salem's immediate reaction of "we have reserves!" - until it is not-so-kindly pointed out that she does not, in fact, have reserves - kind of comforted them in their idea that they did the right thing.

Zam · Nov 28, 2018

Macros said:
Well sure, it's pretty clear the God of Darkness is rather mercurial, and the punishment isn't really a proportionate response. But that's really something one should expect when dealing with gods. Plus, I'm sure Salem's immediate reaction of "we have reserves!" - until it is not-so-kindly pointed out that she does not, in fact, have reserves - kind of comforted them in their idea that they did the right thing.

I'm not really sure how that matters in this context, it was an evil thing to do and a massive over reaction to what was essentially a rebellion of a few hundred ants. And promising to come back and murder everyone if they aren't 'harmonious' enough and the fact it was called an experiment just makes the gods seem like alien tool bags to me who arbitrarily decided on rules many of which cause people suffering and who have no standards besides what they feel like.

VolantRedX · Nov 28, 2018

Zam said:
That is my take as well, though given the line about Remnant being an experiment and the GoD feeling the 'rules' benefit the GoL I'm unsure of the specifics, but yeah, death seems entirely arbitrary, as does the 'balance' between life and death and everything else. It is all just two gods experimenting on sentient creatures and lashing out when their experiment doesn't behave itself. At least to me.

To add something here the way the GoL says "this world is a beautiful experiment" brings to mind more an artist lamenting a painting he made didn't turn out right. Like Michelangelo trying a fresco for the first time.

Macros · Nov 28, 2018

Zam said:
I'm not really sure how that matters in this context, it was an evil thing to do and a massive over reaction to what was essentially a rebellion of a few hundred ants. And promising to come back and murder everyone if they aren't 'harmonious' enough and the fact it was called an experiment just makes the gods seem like alien tool bags to me who arbitrarily decided on rules many of which cause people suffering and who have no standards besides what they feel like.

Well, they ARE aliens, so it's kinda pointless to try to constrain them via human morality. I've never been a big fan of the Rage Against the Heavens kind of story, but when it comes to your standard mythologic god, I think the Greeks have the right idea: just try to be ignored by them, it makes everything easier.

And honestly, I do think there's a decent chance the story ends exactly like that. The relics are gathered, Humanity is still found wanting, because frankly the standards seem unrealistically high, but someone (Ruby?) manage to argue that hey, you don't HAVE to destroy everything, just let humans live in a god-less world and go do your own thing in space, or something.

Mook · Nov 28, 2018

BBBence1111 said:
"She told him of her loss, and professed she knew only he could answer her prayers. All while careful to make no mention of his elder."

Where's the lie in this? She did lose Ozma, she knows that the GoL won't bring him back and thus only the GoD can, and not mentioning his brother is just a good life insurance policy.

I fully agree that resurrecting one person is not an option, because then everyone would want resurrections. Cursing her to be immortal for daring to try? That's a small bit overkill.

Also, I don't have half an hour. Timestamp when Jinn says that please?

Uh, right there in your own quote?

Saying that you believe that Person B is the only person in the whole wide world who could do something when you only asked them because Person A who you know could do it refused your pleas and would not do it is pretty clearly a lie. Especially when combined with the deliberate omission of any mention of Person A, which combined with the first lie gives the implication that you either don't know Person A exists or far more likely in this case don't believe Person A could do it. There is a difference between could and would.

If Salem had approached the God of Darkness and told him that his brother was a big dumb poopy head who won't bring Ozma back, but that she knows he's much smarter and wiser and more generous and won't he please bring Ozma back, then you could claim that she didn't lie. It could still have been manipulative depending on how she worded it but it would still have been honest. But acting like the the meeting with the God of Light never happened, claiming that she thought the God of Darkness was the only being capable of bringing Ozma back and never mentioning the God of Light at all even though she only went to his younger brother because he rejected her first, that's just straight up dishonest on her part.

Zam said:
Gosh what a mood, I'd also be cool with Salem calling back the gods and when they refuse to kill her and instead to decide to murder everyone down to the last child for not being 'harmonious' enough, she turns their power on them and as they are being destroyed by their own strength one of them rattles off some angry line and she can turn their own words against them in some way, either new words or maybe like "Demanding things, of your creations?" before smirking as they fade away.

Cool beans. Can we then have the ghost of Amber show up and use a Grimm Parasite to suck out all of Salem's newfound divine power, along with her original magical power while saying "I'm taking back what is mine." before chucking the now helpless but still immortal Salem to the moon?

Don't get me wrong, I love Salem as a character and I have a lot of sympathy for her. But I find it a bit annoying how people now treat her as if she had no agency and that every evil deed she's ever committed is suddenly ok because she has a tragic backstory and the gods were dicks. I feel like we're kind of forgetting that Salem has done a lot of fucked up shit without any involvement on the part of the Gods.

And frankly if we're going to give ultimate supreme power to characters in the show so that they can dish out karmic retribution I would rather give that power to cinnamon rolls who can un-ironically use the "I have done nothing wrong, ever, in my life" meme rather than the person who is responsible for them being brutally murdered.

thesevenwielder · Nov 28, 2018

It would be an absurd escalation of power but I wouldn't mind an end game of punching out the gods. Or somehow managing to twist things so their own power gets used against them.

SpeckofStardust · Nov 28, 2018

Macros said:
And honestly, I do think there's a decent chance the story ends exactly like that. The relics are gathered, Humanity is still found wanting, because frankly the standards seem unrealistically high, but someone (Ruby?) manage to argue that hey, you don't HAVE to destroy everything, just let humans live in a god-less world and go do your own thing in space, or something.

Isnt that what their already doing though?

Macros · Nov 28, 2018

SpeckofStardust said:
Isnt that what their already doing though?

Exactly! And well, it's going... well, okay may be a strong word, but it's manageable.

Leingod · Nov 28, 2018

SpeckofStardust said:
Isnt that what their already doing though?

No. Why do people keep thinking that the heroes are trying to gather the Relics? They're trying to keep them safe from Salem, nothing more and nothing less. The Haven Vault is compromised, so they're taking it to a more secure location. That's the long and short of it.

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!

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Official Conscience of Worm Fanfiction!

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