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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • thesevenwielder said:
    Jinn's narrative presents the good god's actions as in the right. Yes your individual position as an audience member may differ, but plenty of people, yourself included, have treated her as 100% objective. And Jinn constantly repeats "it's all Salem's fault." I mean, it clearly isn't to anyone with half a brain, but that's what the narrative is trying to tell us. So no, they are not nuanced after all. The good god remains good and the bad god remains bad.

    Also it's hella creepy that Oz forcibly possessed four separate people for the express purpose of banging Salem. Fucking creep.
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    The way I see it everyone (Salem, the Gods, Ozpin, etc.) was at fault in that situation. Also, Ozpin doesn't have much of a choice in choosing his host and besides the first incarnation, he has banged Salem for awhile.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Jinn's narrative presents the good god's actions as in the right. Yes your individual position as an audience member may differ, but plenty of people, yourself included, have treated her as 100% objective. And Jinn constantly repeats "it's all Salem's fault." I mean, it clearly isn't to anyone with half a brain, but that's what the narrative is trying to tell us. So no, they are not nuanced after all. The good god remains good and the bad god remains bad.

    Also it's hella creepy that Oz forcibly possessed four separate people for the express purpose of banging Salem. Fucking creep.
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    I mean there are few universal concepts in human culture but one that exists in pretty much all of them is that what is dead is dead and refusing to accept that, especially transgressing against the gods to get someone back from beyond the grave, is a massive taboo that will at best cause you untold suffering. Salem's punishment was a bit beyond the pale, but she broke one of the most universal rules that exist in human culture.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I mean there are few universal concepts in human culture but one that exists in pretty much all of them is that what is dead is dead and refusing to accept that, especially transgressing against the gods to get someone back from beyond the grave, is a massive taboo that will at best cause you untold suffering. Salem's punishment was a bit beyond the pale, but she broke one of the most universal rules that exist in human culture.
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    Yeah but in our world (as far as I am aware) bringing people back is not possible. In RWBY at this point the GoD showed it was casually easy and the DoL never actually explained why someone needs to stay dead.
     
    Zam said:
    Yeah but in our world (as far as I am aware) bringing people back is not possible. In RWBY at this point the GoD showed it was casually easy and the DoL never actually explained why someone needs to stay dead.
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    Even back when people actually thought any random God was just hanging about dead was dead. There are at least 2 Greek tragedies about how even trying to being back the dead is going to fail and fuck you up. Dead is dead and much like immortality seeking to change that is rarely the motivations of good characters.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Even back when people actually thought any random God was just hanging about dead was dead. There are at least 2 Greek tragedies about how even trying to being back the dead is going to fail and fuck you up. Dead is dead and much like immortality seeking to change that is rarely the motivations of good characters.
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    I don't really want to get into a discussion where i might just have to say something implicitly dismissive of people's faiths so I am just going to refocus and re-note that the GoD rezzed Ozma no issues and the GoL never explained why it mattered he stayed dead and Remnant is not our world.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I mean there are few universal concepts in human culture but one that exists in pretty much all of them is that what is dead is dead and refusing to accept that, especially transgressing against the gods to get someone back from beyond the grave, is a massive taboo that will at best cause you untold suffering. Salem's punishment was a bit beyond the pale, but she broke one of the most universal rules that exist in human culture.
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    In real life dead is dead no matter what, no exceptions. Being unable to get over that can only be unhealthy

    But death in and of itself isn't a good thing and treating it like an inherently good thing is stupid in a fictional world where the rules may be different.

    In DBZ people get revived all the time no issue. Same in Naruto.

    the gods show:

    1. Their rules are arbitrary (they rez people and make people immortal with zero consequences aside from their choice of who to do it to)

    2. They don't respect them (the GoD doesn't give a shit. And the GoL claims they don't even care about humanity and it doesn't matter anyway)

    3. There's not really any cost or consequence to breaking them either. It's effortless and the GoL is the only one who would care, if he wouldn't throw a fit nothing would happen
     
    devilkingx2 said:
    In real life dead is dead no matter what, no exceptions. Being unable to get over that can only be unhealthy

    But death in and of itself isn't a good thing and treating it like an inherently good thing is stupid in a fictional world where the rules may be different.

    In DBZ people get revived all the time no issue. Same in Naruto.
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    I mean in FMA you can resurrect people but the whole show is about how such a goal is selfish and dangerous. The reason Salem is wrong isn't because reviving people is impossible, but because allowing your grief to fester to the point that your actively seeking out god-like beings to demand your loved one back is wrong. What Salem needed was to learn to move past the loss of Ozma, rather than trying to get him back after his time was up. In a meta sense, this is pretty much the extension of a great deal of fiction, dating back to the Ancient Greeks. That thinking you deserve to defy natural law and get back your loved one is a bad thing to do, and learning to deal with the pain is the correct path.

    You guys are correct that in the real world bringing people back to life is impossible, but even in many stories where it is possible, the moral is that doing so is twisted and unnatural. That was my point, that Salem being framed as the villain makes sense because her goals are coded as evil. Just because something can be done doesn't make it morally ok to do.
     
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    Zam said:
    I don't really want to get into a discussion where i might just have to say something implicitly dismissive of people's faiths so I am just going to refocus and re-note that the GoD rezzed Ozma no issues and the GoL never explained why it mattered he stayed dead and Remnant is not our world.
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    He did try to explain but Salem interrupted him and started yelling at him. And after that he only mentions it while talking with his brother who would already be aware and when telling Salem that she needs to figure it out herself if she wants to break her curse.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I mean in FMA you can resurrect people but the whole show is about how such a goal is selfish and dangerous. The reason Salem is wrong isn't because reviving people is impossible, but because allowing your grief to fester to the point that your actively seeking out god-like beings to demand your loved one back is wrong. What Salem needed was to learn to move past the loss of Ozma, rather than trying to get him back after his time was up. In a meta sense, this is pretty much the extension of a great deal of fiction, dating back to the Ancient Greeks. That thinking you deserve to defy natural law and get back your loved one is a bad thing to do, and learning to deal with the pain is the correct path.

    You guys are correct that in the real world bringing people back to life is impossible, but even in many stories where it is possible, the moral is that doing so is twisted and unnatural. That was my point, that Salem being framed as the villain makes sense because her goals are coded as evil. Just because something can be done doesn't make it morally ok to do.
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    Ignoring the fact that this makes no sense at all in a universe where consequence free ressurection is possible or the aforementioned universes where you can iust ressurect whoever, etc.

    There's the important fact that the gods completely screw the natural order on countless occasions

    1. Soulless creatures that are purely hate and don't eat?

    2. Immortal witch with power from both gods

    3. Reincarnating immortal body snatcher

    4. Killing everyone on earth

    So if the natural order is truly so important that it can never be fucked with or else they have a funny way of showing it.
     
    Mook said:
    He did try to explain but Salem interrupted him and started yelling at him. And after that he only mentions it while talking with his brother who would already be aware and when telling Salem that she needs to figure it out herself if she wants to break her curse.
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    He kind of did, but then she got understandably upset with him and he just ditched out, plus as noted we don't even know why or if it is important. For all we know it could just be because the gods thought it would be funny to make aging and death be for keeps and the GoL is a stickler for rules.
     
    devilkingx2 said:
    Ignoring the fact that this makes no sense at all in a universe where consequence free ressurection is possible or the aforementioned universes where you can iust ressurect whoever, etc.
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    Again you're conflating ability with the morality of the action, or rather the pursuit of the action. Just because the gods can do it doesn't mean that it's a good thing for them to do. I mean you brought up Naruto, but a major lesson in Naruto is that bringing people back from the dead is pretty fucked up no matter what the reasons are, and the greatest villains in the story are people who are so consumed by grief over the loss of those they love that it drives them mad and nearly causes the end of the world, whereas the hero is able to come to terms with the death of his loved ones and instead focuses on the living.
     
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    He did more or less say that he's the biggest fuckup on the planet way back in Volume 1. :V

    Once again, more characterization for Salem, she's being surprisingly fair about the Haven snafu, I honestly thought she was gonna kill Hazel for a second there. I'm really loving this, I finally have a villain in this show that I like having onscreen again. Haven't had that since Torchwick and Neo.
     
    So, previous episode, with the Exposition Genie, is free now.

    I thought it was actually pretty solid.

    Contra, I guess, to most of the discussion in the rest of the thread, the gods didn't seem badly handled to me.

    God of Light was generally more compassionate and thoughtful about things, but not interested in treating mortal humans as equals.
    God of Dark was moody and capricious and spiteful, although mostly not that concerned with humans either, unless one comes walking up to his fountain.

    We've seen, via Ozma, that there's some kind of afterlife, and people can be with their loved ones there. He, in fact, preferred to go to that afterlife instead of hanging around being immortal on Earth, until it was made explicit to him that he'd never see Salem there.

    That makes Light Guy's objections actually extremely reasonable; when Salem asks for Ozma back, she's asking for something she would get anyhow, just on a different timeframe. She could live her life out, eventually die in a few decades, hardly any time by immortal being standards, and get reunited again. But, instead, she wants him back immediately, and is willing to go pester the fundamental forces of the universe to achieve it.

    Even her ironic punishment after the showdown with both gods was based around that idea; she isn't allowed to die and see Ozma again until she learns a valuable lesson about why death is an important part of the natural order. That one backfired on ol' Lighty.


    Also, somebody needs to just load one of those relics into a rocket and shoot it to the moon or something, so they can never be reunited. World seems to be getting along OK without local divine presence. Has problems, but nothing worth risking annihilation over.
     
    Nidhoggr said:
    He did more or less say that he's the biggest fuckup on the planet way back in Volume 1. :V

    Once again, more characterization for Salem, she's being surprisingly fair about the Haven snafu, I honestly thought she was gonna kill Hazel for a second there. I'm really loving this, I finally have a villain in this show that I like having onscreen again. Haven't had that since Torchwick and Neo.
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    Well it's not surprising that Salem has some rather....destructive impulses (you know the whoe bathing in the Dark Brother's pool) along with plenty of practice reining them in.
    Phigment said:
    Even her ironic punishment after the showdown with both gods was based around that idea; she isn't allowed to die and see Ozma again until she learns a valuable lesson about why death is an important part of the natural order. That one backfired on ol' Lighty.
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    Did it? Saying it backfired implies that the Gods really care that much about humanity:
    God of Light: This planet was a beautiful experiment, but it is merely a remnant of what it once was. We will learn from this failure. I hope that you will learn from yours.
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    This to me isn't "Damn you, you great fool! You have ruined everything!" and more "Rats, the petri dish got contaminated, time to scrub it out and start a new run."
     
    jwolfe_beta said:
    Did it? Saying it backfired implies that the Gods really care that much about humanity:

    This to me isn't "Damn you, you great fool! You have ruined everything!" and more "Rats, the petri dish got contaminated, time to scrub it out and start a new run."
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    Well, fair enough. We don't know that it actually inconvenienced Light-Guy in a serious way.

    The ironic punishment resulted in Salem learning, rather than the value of death in its proper time and role, that she really hated the gods and was willing to put in a lot of time and effort towards overthrowing them. Also, that she now had a lot of time on her hands.
     
    Phigment said:
    The ironic punishment resulted in Salem learning, rather than the value of death in its proper time and role, that she really hated the gods and was willing to put in a lot of time and effort towards overthrowing them. Also, that she now had a lot of time on her hands.
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    Bingo. To me, their actions indicate that the gods don't really understand how humanity thinks and feels. Not realy surprising when you think about it.

    For example, you know the order the GoL gave Ozma?
    If your kind has learned to live in harmony with one another and set aside their differences, then we shall once again live among you, and humanity will be made whole again.
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    Yeah, that's bogus. Humanity didn't get killed/wiped out because they were fighting against each other. They got killed because they dared to raise their hands against the gods (for the purpose of gaining immortality) using the capabilities they were created with.
    My own gift to them... used against me.
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    That's apparently the entire reason the GoD fried everyone. They attacked him with powers that had less then a snowflakes chance in hell of doing anything to him and his brother went 'Well it's sad, but it's their own fault for doing that.'
    And it's obvious that the people were shocked. I'm willing to bet that they had no idea he could do that much less that he gave them magic in the first place.
     
    I don't think there's enough image macros depicting cruel laughter and mockery for this situation. Literally all Ozpin had to say is that he might not have a plan for Salem, but he did at least want to follow through on his reason for being resurrected.

    Oh god, I need to tell the RWBY LW thread about this right now.
     
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    Old lady is cool...
    Everyone needs a therapist.
    Tyrian has a Flail tail now and enjoyed teasing Emerald about Cinder.
    Emerald: "I'll cut off more than just your tail"
    Mercury protecting Emerald?
    Salem summons the creepy hands as punishment.
    She is NOT happy that Ozpin is bringing the lamp to Atlas

    Also Abandoned Brunwick farm...wonder what the significance is?
     
    jwolfe_beta said:
    Well it's not surprising that Salem has some rather....destructive impulses (you know the whoe bathing in the Dark Brother's pool) along with plenty of practice reining them in.

    Did it? Saying it backfired implies that the Gods really care that much about humanity:

    This to me isn't "Damn you, you great fool! You have ruined everything!" and more "Rats, the petri dish got contaminated, time to scrub it out and start a new run."
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    I got less that this line is about humans being rats in a maze and more that it was like an artist who tried something only for the image to turn out warped and distorted. So he's burning the canvas and starting over.
     
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