RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
 
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Keep in mind you are talking about a hidden para military organization, if a ship was 'conveniently' in the area, someone would likely be calling Cinder and things would go bad for the heroes fast.

At a guess, Ozpin was going on the assumption that they would be smart enough to have lookouts who weren't totally blind and thus would be able to recognize a kilometer-long Atlesian warship flying up to the city and the White Fang would have just immediately gone to ground, completely ruining their advantage of knowing the enemy's base of operations.

They would have to notice the airship and then immediately discover / guess that it was in position to relay a signal from an infiltration team.

Or, you know, it just would have required them to notice that there was a kilometer-long warship that belonged to a foreign country hanging out in the wilderness of Vale. It wouldn't be hard to guess what it was there for, and better safe than sorry anyway.
 
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Oh, and @Mook? If i felt like "making up things to complain about," I'd have picked a more challenging target than RWBY.
There is certainly no shortage of legitimate complaints to make about RWBY. I'm sure you've even made some from time to time. However that doesn't change that you are making up things to complain about now, such as claiming that Ozpin is a bad leader because he didn't let Pyrrha help him fight against Cinder even though the show both states and shows that she would only get in the way (and getting reinforcements was a higher priority anyway) or in the past, such as claiming that Yang was portrayed as a psycopath in Volumes 1-3 even though that is blatantly not the case.


Keep in mind you are talking about a hidden para military organization, if a ship was 'conveniently' in the area, someone would likely be calling Cinder and things would go bad for the heroes fast.
Yeah like, if bringing huge radio transmitters would have carried a slight risk of drawing attention sending a warship into the vicinity would have been a huge glaring NEON sign announcing that an attack was incoming.


And yet being able to send a signal - any signal - could have been useful. Especially since with Ironwood's help they could have had an airship patrol "conveniently in the area" - meaning just close enough to be in broadcast range, positioned to be able to receive the signal around the mountains if those are an issue, and so on. You know, someone to receive even a garbled signal and relay it to Vale and the rest of Ironwood's fleet.

I mean it isn't like this is an old tactic in the real world or anything..
Again they would have been able to send a signal. Just because Ruby couldn't get a signal out when at one specific spot at ground level or when in a underground bunker is no reason to think that she couldn't have gotten a signal if she had wandered back to the group. Just the heightened elevation of the camp site by itself would probably have been enough considering that Ruby did manage to get through a brief message to Jaune while underground.

Allow me to clarify since I now have a moment and I am not writing off the seat of my pants so to speak.

Yes TV signals are radio based however to receive said signals you need need certain Antennas especially for HD signals which are actually all over the place and if you are facing the right direction with such an Antenna you can get free uncompressed tv signals for free. Tai most likely has such an Antenna and has it positioned in such a way that he can receive said signal clearly(depending on the actual range of broadcasts from Vale to Patch he may have not needed it) As for Ruby and crew again you would most likely need special equipment and to be able to transmit clearly which may have not been possible given the state of mount Glenn what with the Grimm crawling around to distract the group or even possibly wrecking the transmission tech. So even if they had what could be bulky equipment they still might not have been able to send a clear signal to be recieved.
Also Patch is within the Kingdom and likely has bigger broadcast towers that helps with getting signals to and from the mainland.

Prior to the invention of the CCTS, long range communication was extremely limited. The discovery and development of radio technology allowed for communication within the boundaries of most Kingdoms. But communication with other parts of the world was restricted to the physical delivery of messengers.
 
At a guess, Ozpin was going on the assumption that they would be smart enough to have lookouts who weren't totally blind and thus would be able to recognize a kilometer-long Atlesian warship flying up to the city and the White Fang would have just immediately gone to ground, completely ruining their advantage of knowing the enemy's base of operations.



Or, you know, it just would have required them to notice that there was a kilometer-long warship that belonged to a foreign country hanging out in the wilderness of Vale. It wouldn't be hard to guess what it was there for, and better safe than sorry anyway.
I love how you are assuming I mean a "kilometer-long warship." They have other ships - scout ships, bullheads, and so on.

You guys are basically assuming everything in the antagonists' favor and nothing in the protagonists' favor. I mean it isn't like scouting tactics like what I am describing are standard in the real world or anything. Or that, given they have fought wars in their history, they would have developed similar tactics, strategies, and skills or anything.
 
So, the subject of Jaune melting Pyrrha's old tiara down to decorate his gear instead of returning it to her family came up in another thread, and while we could just chalk this up to standard RPG-style kleptomaniac-hero tendencies, I'd like to propose another possibility.

There isn't really any mention of Pyrrha's family in the show that I can recall. When the main characters are in Mistral, no one ever suggests going to see them and tell them what happened to her. We could assume that she is an orphan like Ren and Nora, but what if she's not? What if they're estranged? And what if that were related to why Pyrrha gave up being a tournament fighter to become a Huntress?

If tournament fighters are celebrities in Remnant, then what if Pyrrha had an overbearing stage mom? Like, Trish Walker's mom from Jessica Jones bad. If her mom (or dad, or maybe just a talent agent but if it wasn't a legal guardian then you'd think that she'd just replace them) constantly pushed her past her limits, exploited her, stole all her earnings (no telling if Mistral has the sorts of laws to prevent such things that we have), and just generally made her life hell, then she might decide to quit the business and move to another continent to get away from them.

This could also explain the impractical and uncharacteristically sexualized "armor" she wore: her mother/agent/whoever might have told her that she had to dress like that to appeal to the audience and get fans to buy tickets and merchandise. The entertainment industry isn't above playing the "sex sells" card even with teenagers. But she wasn't allowed to have any romantic relationships, because then there could be backlash from the pervs in the audience who can't stand the idea that someone else might get to be with their idealized fantasy waifu. One might think of it like the Japanese idol industry, where girls are expected to be "sexy" (even if underage) but not allowed to give even the slightest hint that they might be sexually active lest they incur the fandom's wrath for not being "pure."

Even if it's not that bad, she still might have not been allowed to have relationships because of a fear of tabloids and scandal, which might explain why she was desperate and lonely enough to latch onto the first boy she met, even if he was a bit shit.
 
You're verging on villain super competence here. They would have to notice the airship and then immediately discover / guess that it was in position to relay a signal from an infiltration team. It would also require them not to assume that the airship was just a regular patrol to keep the Grimm numbers under control / scout the wilderness around the Kingdom. (Something that should be fairly common given the world design element that the Grimm are supposed to be a serious threat.)

For bonus points the White Fang didn't appear to notice the Bullhead dropping off Oobleck and Team RWBY when it flew right into Mountain Glenn- meaning directly over their hidden base.
I don't really see how "Hey why did one of these huge military ships that were meant to be protecting Vale start hanging around a ruin where we are based?" is villain super competence, so much as, the first question anyone in that situation asks, when a ship from an enemy nation shows up in their backyard.

I never said they would deduce/guess that?

The ships had been hanging in Vale since they arrive as far as I can tell and only Atlas seems to have ships like that.

A Bullhead is not a giant battleship.

I love how you are assuming I mean a "kilometer-long warship." They have other ships - scout ships, bullheads, and so on.

You guys are basically assuming everything in the antagonists' favor and nothing in the protagonists' favor. I mean it isn't like scouting tactics like what I am describing are standard in the real world or anything. Or that, given they have fought wars in their history, they would have developed similar tactics, strategies, and skills or anything.
Fair enough, however a ship 'in the area' for any extended period of time is liable to get noticed by patrols unless it parks but then, well Grimm, plus Grim when flying too. Not saying it couldn't possibly work, but ultimately the issue was "Ruby was underground, her signal didn't seem to work very well" so it may not have helped. I suppose someone could have been alerted sooner but that doesn't mean it would change much.

There isn't really any mention of Pyrrha's family in the show that I can recall.
Pyrrha mentioned her mother when talking to Ozpin about fairy tales and she seemed fond of her.
 
I love how you are assuming I mean a "kilometer-long warship." They have other ships - scout ships, bullheads, and so on.

You guys are basically assuming everything in the antagonists' favor and nothing in the protagonists' favor. I mean it isn't like scouting tactics like what I am describing are standard in the real world or anything. Or that, given they have fought wars in their history, they would have developed similar tactics, strategies, and skills or anything.

Those wouldn't have been able to carry enough troops or equipment to be of much use on their own unless Ironwood himself was there with them (or he sent Penny, but he was keeping her a secret). Your problem is that you're assuming this is a world where gun-toting mooks are relevant if they don't have force of numbers and very large, heavy mechs for support. Because they aren't. The White Fang in Vale had the numbers to send 2-3 dozen of their goons and 3-4 Bullheads just to rob a Dust freighter, and they're led by a guy who was shown to rather easily fend off students who could kill Grimm that a firing squad of 20 of his soldiers were losing ground against; a few Bullheads or scout ships aren't going to be much use against anything that Team RWBY plus Oobleck actually need reinforcements for.

So, the subject of Jaune melting Pyrrha's old tiara down to decorate his gear instead of returning it to her family came up in another thread, and while we could just chalk this up to standard RPG-style kleptomaniac-hero tendencies, I'd like to propose another possibility.

There isn't really any mention of Pyrrha's family in the show that I can recall. When the main characters are in Mistral, no one ever suggests going to see them and tell them what happened to her. We could assume that she is an orphan like Ren and Nora, but what if she's not? What if they're estranged? And what if that were related to why Pyrrha gave up being a tournament fighter to become a Huntress?

If tournament fighters are celebrities in Remnant, then what if Pyrrha had an overbearing stage mom? Like, Trish Walker's mom from Jessica Jones bad. If her mom (or dad, or maybe just a talent agent but if it wasn't a legal guardian then you'd think that she'd just replace them) constantly pushed her past her limits, exploited her, stole all her earnings (no telling if Mistral has the sorts of laws to prevent such things that we have), and just generally made her life hell, then she might decide to quit the business and move to another continent to get away from them.

This could also explain the impractical and uncharacteristically sexualized "armor" she wore: her mother/agent/whoever might have told her that she had to dress like that to appeal to the audience and get fans to buy tickets and merchandise. The entertainment industry isn't above playing the "sex sells" card even with teenagers. But she wasn't allowed to have any romantic relationships, because then there could be backlash from the pervs in the audience who can't stand the idea that someone else might get to be with their idealized fantasy waifu. One might think of it like the Japanese idol industry, where girls are expected to be "sexy" (even if underage) but not allowed to give even the slightest hint that they might be sexually active lest they incur the fandom's wrath for not being "pure."

Even if it's not that bad, she still might have not been allowed to have relationships because of a fear of tabloids and scandal, which might explain why she was desperate and lonely enough to latch onto the first boy she met, even if he was a bit shit.

Pyrrha has a mother that she speaks of fondly, in the present tense, when she tells an abridged version of the story of the Four Maidens, smiling when she says that it's her mother's favorite. So that's doubtful. And everyone wears showy, impractical outfits without it being any kind of hindrance, so I don't get why you think that needs explaining.
 
There is certainly no shortage of legitimate complaints to make about RWBY. I'm sure you've even made some from time to time. However that doesn't change that you are making up things to complain about now, such as claiming that Ozpin is a bad leader because he didn't let Pyrrha help him fight against Cinder even though the show both states and shows that she would only get in the way (and getting reinforcements was a higher priority anyway) or in the past, such as claiming that Yang was portrayed as a psycopath in Volumes 1-3 even though that is blatantly not the case.

Given how close the fight between Ozpin and Cinder appeared to be (in fact, the only glimpses we got of it at all seemed to show Ozpin kicking Cinder's ass, so her pulling out an offscreen victory is a massive visual storytelling failure at best), and the fact that Pyrrha was able to give Cinder some kind of actual fight during the following battle (even if we assume that Cinder was going easy on her, which I'm not totally convinced of), then it stands to reason that having Pyrrha help Ozpin in the fight against Cinder prooooobably would have tipped the odds in his favor. And, sending Pyrrha away even when that's a blatantly stupid thing to do is unfortunately not at all out of character for Ozpin in light of his previous actions throughout the show. He's just an idiot. Or crazy. Or both. Most charitable interpretation is that spending that many years in such close proximity to the CCT emitter wasn't a good idea.

As for Psychopatch: I never said that that I thought that was the author's intent. However, that is how she was written as often as not. If authorial intent was all that mattered, there'd be nothing in the world but perfect, flawless stories.
 
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(in fact, the only glimpses we got of it at all seemed to show Ozpin kicking Cinder's ass, so her pulling out an offscreen victory is a massive visual storytelling failure even at best)
When we cut away from the fight they were engaged in a beam stuff which seemed able to go either way, so I kind of disagree.
(even if we assume that Cinder was going easy on her, which I'm not totally convinced of),
She could also have been tired. But regardless, she didn't pull out anything like she did on Ozpin hence why many assume she was toying with her, I feel.
As for Psychipatch: I never said that that I thought that was the author's intent. However, that is how she was written as often as not. If authorial intent was all that mattered, there'd be nothing in the world but perfect, flawless stories.
This has been debated to death and not once have I seen a remotely good reasoning for this save blatant misinterpretation to outright falsehoods.
 
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Given how close the fight between Ozpin and Cinder appeared to be (in fact, the only glimpses we got of it at all seemed to show Ozpin kicking Cinder's ass, so her pulling out an offscreen victory is a massive visual storytelling failure at best), and the fact that Pyrrha was able to give Cinder some kind of actual fight during the following battle (even if we assume that Cinder was going easy on her, which I'm not totally convinced of), then it stands to reason that having Pyrrha help Ozpin in the fight against Cinder prooooobably would have tipped the odds in his favor. And, sending Pyrrha away even when that's a blatantly stupid thing to do is unfortunately not at all out of character for Ozpin in light of his previous actions throughout the show. He's just an idiot. Or crazy. Or both. Most charitable interpretation is that spending that many years in such close proximity to the CCT emitter wasn't a good idea.

As for Psychopatch: I never said that that I thought that was the author's intent. However, that is how she was written as often as not. If authorial intent was all that mattered, there'd be nothing in the world but perfect, flawless stories.
Apparently Cinder was holding back when she fought Pyrrha.
 
I don't really see how "Hey why did one of these huge military ships that were meant to be protecting Vale start hanging around a ruin where we are based?" is villain super competence, so much as, the first question anyone in that situation asks, when a ship from an enemy nation shows up in their backyard.

I never said they would deduce/guess that?

The ships had been hanging in Vale since they arrive as far as I can tell and only Atlas seems to have ships like that.

A Bullhead is not a giant battleship.


Fair enough, however a ship 'in the area' for any extended period of time is liable to get noticed by patrols unless it parks but then, well Grimm, plus Grim when flying too. Not saying it couldn't possibly work, but ultimately the issue was "Ruby was underground, her signal didn't seem to work very well" so it may not have helped. I suppose someone could have been alerted sooner but that doesn't mean it would change much.


Pyrrha mentioned her mother when talking to Ozpin about fairy tales and she seemed fond of her.
Zam, re-read the original post I was responding to. You said:
Keep in mind you are talking about a hidden para military organization, if a ship was 'conveniently' in the area, someone would likely be calling Cinder and things would go bad for the heroes fast.
Meaning you are assuming they notice immediately, they realize it is there looking for them immediately, and they then immediately call their boss to start taking the appropriate counter steps.

Also note that you are apparently ignoring the part I mentioned about how the airship would be at a distance. Far enough away to receive the transmission and stay out of sight. Again, this is a tactic that people have used in the real world for centuries and I'm assuming the people of Remnant would also have practiced it. If the White Fang had scouts out far enough and in significant numbers enough to see an airship like that then they would have spotted Team RWBY getting dropped off and/or they would have at least noticed the sounds of combat as Team RWBY fought off the Grimm in the ruins. Or, heck, they could have noticed their campfire when they were staying overnight.

Also "been alerted sooner" is the entire point of the discussion of having a radio in that situation. So did you just concede the point? I'm confused at this point.
Those wouldn't have been able to carry enough troops or equipment to be of much use on their own unless Ironwood himself was there with them (or he sent Penny, but he was keeping her a secret). Your problem is that you're assuming this is a world where gun-toting mooks are relevant if they don't have force of numbers and very large, heavy mechs for support. Because they aren't. The White Fang in Vale had the numbers to send 2-3 dozen of their goons and 3-4 Bullheads just to rob a Dust freighter, and they're led by a guy who was shown to rather easily fend off students who could kill Grimm that a firing squad of 20 of his soldiers were losing ground against; a few Bullheads or scout ships aren't going to be much use against anything that Team RWBY plus Oobleck actually need reinforcements for.
Who said anything about a single ship being the military backup? In a situation like what has been proposed Team RWBY are a scout unit. If they find something they need to be able to radio it in (thus the relay scout ship which, to be fair, could have easily been the Bullhead that dropped them off.) From there reinforcements would be called in. Meaning Ironwood's fleet over Vale plus any Hunters that the Valesian government decided to send.

Also note, to be fair, it takes time for things like an air fleet to get organized and get moving. Based on how fast it went Ironwood would have gotten the alert about the White Fang base and begun that process. The Atlesian air fleet couldn't have made it very far out of Vale (if they made it out at all) before the train arrived and caused the Breach. It would also have the side effect, given that Ironwood can reasonably be expected to tell the government of Vale and Ozpin what he's doing and the reason behind it, for Vale itself to be put on high alert. That would mean having the Hunters in town (stationed there, working there, just hanging around town) being alerted that Something Might Be Happening.

End result is that when the Breach happens it would have had a faster and heavier response from the professional Hunter teams than just having Team CFVY and Glynda showing up. So still a net gain for the protagonists in the story as it happened.
 
This has been debated to death and not once have seen a remotely good reasoning for this save blatant misinterpretation to outright falsehoods.

My reasoning is such:

1. In our introduction to Yang, we see her sexually assault and then beat up a bunch of criminals for no reason, even after they proved willing to de-escalate. She may have even killed a few of the mooks, its hard to say (and more to the point, there's no way if SHE could have known if she was killing any, given the way aura supposedly works...most of the time at least, aura is not very consistent).

2. We then see her abandon Ruby to disappear into a crowd of "friends" who we never see her interact with again, and indeed we never even see any further implications that Yang HAS any friends outside of the named cast. This is followed immediately by Yang SEPARATING Ruby from the one friend she's made since then (Jaune) at the assembly, and then - an episode or two later - telling Ruby that she should make her own team with new friends of her own before doing a 180 and going looking for Ruby herself as soon as they were actually in the forest. It definitely seems like there's a pattern of Yang trying to socially isolate Ruby while trying to convince her that she, herself, is much more socially apt than she is.

3. We then see her have a completely out of nowhere angry outburst at no one in the middle of the forest.

4. In the following season, we see her encouraging Jaune to keep hitting on Weiss even though she knows Weiss is just irritated by him, and then uses the opportunity to call Weiss an "ice queen" when Jaune predictably escalates.

5. Shortly later, she encourages her teammates to leave a dog - her OWN FAMILY PET - alone without food for a week.


Now, Yang also has other moments where she's not written like a psychopath. She has two or three other personalities that she cycles through, one of them even being likable. But at least in seasons one and two, "manipulative psychopath with no impulse control who loves cruelly toying with people" was the most frequently recurrent of them, and definitely the most memorable.
 
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Pyrrha mentioned her mother when talking to Ozpin about fairy tales and she seemed fond of her.
Pyrrha has a mother that she speaks of fondly, in the present tense,
Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Still could have been a manager or something that disillusioned her on the industry.

If Pyrrha and her family were not estranged, then it comes back to the question of why nobody on Team RNJR ever considers going to see her. But then I remember that one guy from Easy Company who felt so bad about his friend's death that he wasn't able to get up the nerve to face the guy's family until years after the war....

(But then, he didn't melt down the guy's personal effects and use them to decorate his rifle, either.)
 
Zam, re-read the original post I was responding to. You said:
Meaning you are assuming they notice immediately, they realize it is there looking for them immediately, and they then immediately call their boss to start taking the appropriate counter steps.

Also note that you are apparently ignoring the part I mentioned about how the airship would be at a distance. Far enough away to receive the transmission and stay out of sight. Again, this is a tactic that people have used in the real world for centuries and I'm assuming the people of Remnant would also have practiced it. If the White Fang had scouts out far enough and in significant numbers enough to see an airship like that then they would have spotted Team RWBY getting dropped off and/or they would have at least noticed the sounds of combat as Team RWBY fought off the Grimm in the ruins. Or, heck, they could have noticed their campfire when they were staying overnight.

Also "been alerted sooner" is the entire point of the discussion of having a radio in that situation. So did you just concede the point? I'm confused at this point.
I did, you didn't specify the ship so like everyone else I assumed you meant a giant ship, hence why I went into a different response for a smaller ship lower down.

Anyway I addressed all of this, the Grimm are an issue, getting spotted is an issue, Ruby's Scroll was underground regardless and being altered sooner doesn't really mean much save there being less forces at the Breach so (Shrug)

Torture doesn't speak well of someone mental faculties.
Go complain at every TV show with angry cops, soldiers, action heroes, and super heroes, then come back.

My reasoning is such:

1. In our introduction to Yang, we see her sexually assault and then beat up a bunch of criminals for no reason, even after they proved willing to de-escalate. She may have even killed a few of the mooks, its hard to say (and more to the point, there's no way if SHE could have known if she was killing any, given the way aura supposedly works...most of the time at least, aura is not very consistent).

2. We then see her abandon Ruby to disappear into a crowd of "friends" who we never see her interact with again, and indeed we never even see any further implications that Yang HAS any friends outside of the named cast. This is followed immediately by Yang SEPARATING Ruby from the one friend she's made since then (Jaune) at the assembly, and then - an episode or two later - telling Ruby that she should make her own team with new friends of her own before doing a 180 and going looking for Ruby herself as soon as they were actually in the forest. It definitely seems like there's a pattern of Yang trying to socially isolate Ruby while trying to convince her that she, herself, is much more socially apt than she is.

3. We then see her have a completely out of nowhere angry outburst at no one in the middle of the forest.

4. In the following season, we see her encouraging Jaune to keep hitting on Weiss even though she knows Weiss is just irritated by him, and then uses the opportunity to call Weiss an "ice queen" when Jaune predictably escalates.

5. Shortly later, she encourages her teammates to leave a dog - her OWN FAMILY PET - alone without food for a week.


Now, Yang also has other moments where she's not written like a psychopath. She has two or three other personalities that she cycles through, one of them even being likable. But at least in seasons one and two, "manipulative psychopath with no impulse control who loves cruelly toying with people" was the most frequently recurrent of them, and definitely the most memorable.
1. Not sexual assault, it was functionally putting him in an arm or headlock, IE, causing physical discomfort and make him unable to fight back so she can ask her questions.

2. As I said, deliberate misinterpretation to outright falsehoods, she wanted Ruby to stop hiding in her shadow and locking people out, so she tried to 'push her in the deep end' as one of the VA's described it, but was also always present if Ruby started to have trouble to continue the swimming metaphor and she had no way of knowing Ruby and Jaune were 'friends'.

3. You mean the Ursa that destroyed her hair, something she is established to be very protective of, in the manage specifically cos Ruby likes it?

4. Bad writing is bad writing, no one called out Jaune's shit.

5. There was a pile of food right there and a can opener which he is implied to be able to use.

As I said, deliberate misinterpretation, to outright falsehoods, only one of these I can even blame on bad writing.
 
Go complain at every TV show with angry cops, soldiers, action heroes, and super heroes, then come back.
So are you going to do this whole "What about x" whenever this comes up?

Just because other fictional characters commit some moral wrongs doesn't mean I can criticize Yang for the same things.
 
Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Still could have been a manager or something that disillusioned her on the industry.

If Pyrrha and her family were not estranged, then it comes back to the question of why nobody on Team RNJR ever considers going to see her. But then I remember that one guy from Easy Company who felt so bad about his friend's death that he wasn't able to get up the nerve to face the guy's family until years after the war....

(But then, he didn't melt down the guy's personal effects and use them to decorate his rifle, either.)
Pyrrha implied she wanted to be a Huntress for a long time in her talk with Jaune if I recall, and I don't see how being a tournament champ would impede that.

I attribute it to bad writing, same for melting down the last mementos of her into an upgrade for just Jaune, like never letting Ren or Nora expressed grief about Pyrrha.

It annoys me cos there'd be an easy way to do it, just make the blacksmith Pyrrha's mother, say they sought her out, say she kept like, the jewel, but that Pyrrha would want her weapons to be protecting her team mate/partner or whatever and be done with it. Not perfect, but it feels better to me.


So are you going to do this whole "What about x" whenever this comes up?

Just because other fictional characters commit some moral wrongs doesn't mean I can criticize Yang for the same things.
Why should I have to do anything else? do you complain about this in other media you watch? if not, then you obviously have some other reason for doing so. This is a common, though be it, shitty trope they used and ignoring its prevalence in media does you no favors in a discussion. This is not new, its not unique, heroic characters pull shit like this all the time and aren't treated like monsters, complain about the trope, rather than pretending its makes the character a psychopath, because otherwise its clear your motives aren't to do with what Yang did, but that it was her doing it, or cos you have some specific issue with the show, IE, a hidden motive.
 
Why should I have to do anything else? do you complain about this in other media you watch? if not, then you obviously have some other reason for doing so. This is a common, though be it, shitty trope they used and ignoring its prevalence in media does you no favors in a discussion. This is not new, its not unique, heroic characters pull shit like this all the time and aren't treated like monsters, complain about the trope, rather than pretending its makes the character a psychopath, because otherwise its clear your motives aren't to do with what Yang did, but that it was her doing it, or cos you have some specific issue with the show, IE, a hidden motive.
I never said she was a psychopath, I was only pointing out why people might think she is. Characters using torture is one of my biggest peeves in fiction and I criticize it whenever it shows up if the writers are trying to justify it. I don't care if its Batman, the Punisher, Jack Bauer or the god-dammed CIA, if someone depicts them using torture, I'm going to call them out on it.

The only exception I'll make is if the writers show that torture doesn't work or if they present the character as being in the wrong.

But no, clearly I have an agenda against Yang and RWBY as a whole.
 
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1. Not sexual assault, it was functionally putting him in an arm or headlock, IE, causing physical discomfort and make him unable to fight back so she can ask her questions.

2. As I said, deliberate misinterpretation to outright falsehoods, she wanted Ruby to stop hiding in her shadow and locking people out, so she tried to 'push her in the deep end' as one of the VA's described it, but was also always present if Ruby started to have trouble to continue the swimming metaphor and she had no way of knowing Ruby and Jaune were 'friends'.

3. You mean the Ursa that destroyed her hair, something she is established to be very protective of, in the manage specifically cos Ruby likes it?

4. Bad writing is bad writing, no one called out Jaune's shit.

5. There was a pile of food right there and a can opener which he is implied to be able to use.

As I said, deliberate misinterpretation, to outright falsehoods, only one of these I can even blame on bad writing.

1. No, it was definitely sexual assault. And that's even aside the fact that she chased after him and offered him a kiss (which he accepted; fairly clear sign that he was willing to let things go, which is far more forgiving than I would have been in his place) before beating him and his gang up, in the middle of a crowded dance hall full of innocent bystanders.

The sad thing is that it would have been the easiest thing in the world for RT to save that scene. All they had to do was have Yang pick Junior up again after defeating his gang and say "NOW WILL YOU TELL ME WHERE SHE IS, YOU LYING PIECE OF SHIT?" and have Junior give her the info he'd been withholding. Then Yang would have had a rational motive for doing what she did, even if I'd still have some reservations about how she went about it. But, they did not.

As one of my readers put it, the writers came close to successfully writing Yang as Batman in that scene, but they fucked it up and turned her into the Joker.

2. I'm sure that's how they intended it. But that's not how its actually written.

3. No, I mean when she suddenly goes into fiery rage mode in the middle of the clearing and starts shrieking at everyone to calm down even though literally no one besides her was freaking out.

4. There's a difference between "not calling it out" and "actively encouraging it, and then trying to fuck with Weiss' head about it."

5. Um. Shameless Cowboy Bebop Ripoff Doge can use the can opener? I don't recall seeing any evidence of this. If he can though, then I'll give you this one.

One of us is willfully ignoring what actually happened in the show, but it sure as hell ain't me.


Also, @Zam, @Leingod? Maybe try to actually read @Nicholai's posts before responding to them. Arguing passed someone is known as "strawmanning," and is looked down upon in some cultures.
 
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I never said she was a psychopath, I was only pointing out why might think she is. Characters using torture is one of my biggest peeves in fiction and I criticize it whenever it shows up if the writers are trying to justify it. I don't care if its Batman, the Punisher, Jack Bauer or the god-dammed CIA, if someone depicts them using torture, I'm going to call them out on it.

The only exception I'll make is if the writers show that torture doesn't work or if they present the character as being in the wrong.

But no, clearly I have an agenda against Yang and RWBY as a whole.
You were agreeing with the person making that assertion and used language that made comments regarding her mental sate, you for all intents and purposes did accuse her of that.

I have no proof of your claim and while it may indeed be true, your phrasing seems to indicate that your unwilling to acknowledge this is, and I agree, a shitty trope and not an example of the character actually being a psychopath, I hate it too, but in the media culture we exist in, its not an indicator of that and treating it otherwise feels unfair to me.

1. No, it was definitely sexual assault. And that's even aside the fact that she chased after him and offered him a kiss (which he accepted; fairly clear sign that he was willing to let things go, which is far more forgiving than I would have been in his place) before beating him and his gang up, in the middle of a crowded dance hall full of innocent bystanders.

The sad thing is that it would have been the easiest thing in the world for RT to save that scene. All they had to do was have Yang pick Junior up again after defeating his gang and say "NOW WILL YOU TELL ME WHERE SHE IS, YOU LYING PIECE OF SHIT?" and have Junior give her the info he'd been withholding. Then Yang would have had a rational motive for doing what she did, even if I'd still have some reservations about how she went about it. But, they did not.

As one of my readers put it, the writers came close to successfully writing Yang as Batman in that scene, but they fucked it up and turned her into the Joker.

2. I'm sure that's how they intended it. But that's not how its actually written.

3. No, I mean when she suddenly goes into fiery rage mode in the middle of the clearing and starts shrieking at everyone to calm down even though literally no one besides her was freaking out.

4. There's a difference between "not calling it out" and "actively encouraging it, and then trying to fuck with Weiss' head about it."

5. Um. Shameless Cowboy Bebop Ripoff Doge can use the can opener? I don't recall seeing any evidence of this. If he can though, then I'll give you this one.

One of us is willfully ignoring what actually happened in the show, but it sure as hell ain't me.
1 It was not and also he was a full grown gang leader wanting to get a kiss from a girl he knew to be underage and she beat him up after he threatened her and he is, oh right a criminal.

2 No that is just you misrepresenting what is there, if you can acknowledge that was the intent, then you know you are twisting in knots to justify this take.

3. You initially said "at no one" when it was directed at the people around her and was born of clearly indicated built up stress from sensory overload, IE, too much 'crazy' stuff happening all at once, she vented, she calmed down.

4. You mean like Pyrrha encouraged him? Seriously, its shitty writing, two men who likely never experienced sexual harassment wrote some cliche garbage and didn't notice it.

5. The fact Tai sent it with Zwei and no one questioned her decision to leave the dog with the can opener? I feel like you are, as I said, deliberately misinterpreting scene or just outright ignoring the existence of tropes, theme, implication, framing and well, everything about writing and conveying stuff in a visual medium in order to reach these conclusions, more or less like everyone else who came her to make these same claims "Its not a crime bar, they're just bouncers!" ETC.

Also what the narrator said and add on that Yang only suggested leaving Zwei there after the can opener popped up if I recall, which shows a clear indication she has reason to believe he can use it, because, comedy gag in a series, seriously the dog was in a literal can smaller than its head that was filled with dozens of cans as only a little smaller than the container, holding said dog, and the thing you are focusing on is that she thinks he'll be fine if they leave him? Why isn't Tai a monster for forcing this "Clearly not traumatized dog" into a mail tube for X amount of time?

I am sorry if I seem angry but this is really frustrating to see a character dragged through thee mud like this over stuff that makes absolutely no sense to me.
 
Who said anything about a single ship being the military backup? In a situation like what has been proposed Team RWBY are a scout unit. If they find something they need to be able to radio it in (thus the relay scout ship which, to be fair, could have easily been the Bullhead that dropped them off.) From there reinforcements would be called in. Meaning Ironwood's fleet over Vale plus any Hunters that the Valesian government decided to send.

... Isn't that exactly what happened anyway? Ironwood wanted to send in the troops immediately and Ozpin said they should scout it out first. For all we know, Oobleck was carrying a radio in that huge pack on his back. It wouldn't have been useful anyway, since they were several meters underground by the time he actually figured out where the White Fang was and what they were doing.

Torture doesn't speak well of someone mental faculties.

And construing anything I've ever seen Yang do as "torture" doesn't speak well of my ability to take someone seriously on this subject. Speaking of which:

1. In our introduction to Yang, we see her sexually assault and then beat up a bunch of criminals for no reason, even after they proved willing to de-escalate. She may have even killed a few of the mooks, its hard to say (and more to the point, there's no way if SHE could have known if she was killing any, given the way aura supposedly works...most of the time at least, aura is not very consistent).

She needed information and presumably a student Huntress whose dad is a teacher doesn't make the money to pay a shady information broker's rates, so she did what just about every action hero and vigilante in fiction from McClane to Bauer to Batman does and roughed up some crooks to get the answers she wanted. To claim they were willing to "deescalate" rings hollow to me, as Junior promised retribution the moment Yang let go of his balls and his goons were circling her with weapons drawn. I suppose you can take his bemused acceptance of Yang's offer to "kiss and make up" that way, but I personally doubt he would have actually let it end there and just went along with it to score a kiss before he made her pay.

2. We then see her abandon Ruby to disappear into a crowd of "friends" who we never see her interact with again, and indeed we never even see any further implications that Yang HAS any friends outside of the named cast. This is followed immediately by Yang SEPARATING Ruby from the one friend she's made since then (Jaune) at the assembly, and then - an episode or two later - telling Ruby that she should make her own team with new friends of her own before doing a 180 and going looking for Ruby herself as soon as they were actually in the forest. It definitely seems like there's a pattern of Yang trying to socially isolate Ruby while trying to convince her that she, herself, is much more socially apt than she is.

a. Yang ditches Ruby because she wants Ruby to make friends and not just hide in her shadow the whole time they're at Beacon (because what teenage older sibling seriously wants their younger sibling hanging around them all the time at school?). Ruby had specifically expressed that she was okay with not having any friends at Beacon since she had Yang, so Yang essentially tried to push Ruby into the pool to get her to swim (and she does know how to swim, metaphorically speaking, since she had friends at Signal).

b. Okay, so those faceless shadow people don't show up again. Huge shock. What's your point? No one else in the main cast was ever shown hanging out with background characters, and I doubt they were all friendless recluses or "psychopaths," so I fail to see why this matters.

c. Yang does not "separate" Ruby from Jaune, she waves at her sister and says that she "saved [her] a spot." Ruby runs off and leaves Jaune behind on her own.

d. In the locker room, Ruby starts acting happy about the fact that she doesn't have to bother with "awkward getting-to-know-you stuff" anymore and can just shoot things with Crescent Rose. Yang then replies that she's going to be on a team and needs to learn to meet knew people and work together with them. Ruby tries to deny this until Yang brings up teams, Ruby says that she'll just be on Yang's team, and Yang reacts by suggesting that Ruby try to form her own team (as opposed to, again, just lingering in her sister's shadow). Ruby takes this poorly, thinking Yang doesn't want to be on a team with her, and Yang quickly denies that and explains that she just thinks it'll help Ruby break out of her shell, which Ruby again takes poorly.

e. Once in the forest, Yang isn't specifically seeking Ruby out the way Ruby is seeking Yang; she asks if "anyone" is out there, then hears a whoosh of something moving quickly (Blake) and then a rustle in the bushes (an Ursa) and thinks it's Ruby. Yang isn't opposed to being on Ruby's team - she only hesitantly suggests that Ruby think about forming her own team - but as the above shows, she thinks it'd be good for Ruby to make her own friends and team at Beacon instead of trailing along after Yang. The worst you could say is that she's too pushy in trying to get Ruby to open up and be more social and that it's probably not the best strategy. But to claim manipulation or psychopathy out of that...? I feel like you're throwing around a very strong word whose meaning you don't seem to grasp.

2. We then see her abandon Ruby to disappear into a crowd of "friends" who we never see her interact with again, and indeed we never even see any further implications that Yang HAS any friends outside of the named cast. This is followed immediately by Yang SEPARATING Ruby from the one friend she's made since then (Jaune) at the assembly, and then - an episode or two later - telling Ruby that she should make her own team with new friends of her own before doing a 180 and going looking for Ruby herself as soon as they were actually in the forest. It definitely seems like there's a pattern of Yang trying to socially isolate Ruby while trying to convince her that she, herself, is much more socially apt than she is.
3. You mean the Ursa that destroyed her hair, something she is established to be very protective of, in the manage specifically cos Ruby likes it?

Probably referring to Yang's "I can't take it anymore! Can everyone just chill out for two seconds before something crazy happens again?!" thing when they're getting the chess pieces and people and Grimm keep showing up in weird ways. Which is painfully misconstrued either way, because it's so obviously just a silly gag that there's literally the sound of a timer counting off two seconds immediately afterward, and even if it wasn't to say that having a short temper and yelling out in frustration at weird stuff happening in quick succession and not allowing you to get a word in edgewise is a sign of psychopathy is too ridiculous for me to even bother with.

4. In the following season, we see her encouraging Jaune to keep hitting on Weiss even though she knows Weiss is just irritated by him, and then uses the opportunity to call Weiss an "ice queen" when Jaune escalates.

I guess you could use this to argue that Yang is kind of a jerk, or that she has bad opinions/perspective regarding relationships, much like entire generations of women who grew up on awful Rom-Coms that glorified the exact behavior Jaune shows. I wasn't aware that that made one a psychopath, though. Good to know!

5. Shortly later, she encourages her teammates to leave a dog - her OWN FAMILY PET - alone without food for a week.

There was a huge pile of food. They asked how Zwei would get to it, a can opener fell out, and Yang said that that settled it. In other words, Yang believes that Zwei can use that can opener to get to the food in some manner. Ruby did not protest this conclusion that Zwei would not starve to death in their absence, taking him along purely because he started giving her sad puppy eyes. And seeing as Zwei is her dog, and not yours, I think she has a better grasp of what he's capable of than you are. If Ruby did not express any kind of concern at his survival, we can probably accept that he would, in fact, be able to eat that dog food on his own.

So are you going to do this whole "What about x" whenever this comes up?

Just because other fictional characters commit some moral wrongs doesn't mean I can criticize Yang for the same things.

No, but it does mean that you're just refusing to accept a trope for what it is and instead choose to assume that it makes the character a psychopath/idiot/whatever. It's like bitching about how Superman is an evil bastard who wants people to suffer and be reliant on him because he isn't handing out Kryptonian tech and free energy: you're choosing to characterize Superman as pure evil instead of simply accepting that the writers want to write a superhero comic instead of sci-fi and either making peace with that or giving up on mainstream superhero comics.
 
@Zam and @Leingod

Lets assume for a second I don't think Yang is a psychopath, I don't actually but you two are convinced otherwise. Why I can't I call her out, and the writers, for torturing Junior. And it is torture, ask the United Nations.

No, but it does mean that you're just refusing to accept a trope for what it is and instead choose to assume that it makes the character a psychopath/idiot/whatever. It's like bitching about how Superman is an evil bastard who wants people to suffer and be reliant on him because he isn't handing out Kryptonian tech and free energy: you're choosing to characterize Superman as pure evil instead of simply accepting that the writers want to write a superhero comic instead of sci-fi and either making peace with that or giving up on mainstream superhero comics.
Okay, so its a bad trope and its speaks poorly of the people who use it without applying consequences.
 
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