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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Leila Hann said:
    See, when you know you've fucked up more than anyone else, but still insist on hanging onto power and making decisions for everyone else, I'd say that makes you a pretty bad person regardless of how good you think your intentions are.
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    He's fucked up more than anyone else because he's lived longer than anyone else and had far more time to make mistakes. If you compare amount of mistakes made relative to ones lifespan the equation would look a lot more favorable for him. Humanity is perfectly capable of fucking up without his input.

    Slavery for example was not something he instituted and in fact was abolished because of him. Humans discriminated against Faunus without his input and while he might not be doing as much as he could be doing to fix that he is at least openly advocating for equality. Vacuo being turned into a third-world hellhole by aggressive colonialism? Humans did that on their own. Outlawing emotions? Mantle did that without his input and tried to force it on the world. The Great War? Mistral's unchecked expansionism met with Valian nationalism. Maybe there was a way he could have handled the situation better but at the very least he tried to avoid starting a war, which is more than what can be said of everyone else in that situation. The SDC turning its workers into effectively slaves and destroying other businesses to create a exploitative monopoly? Jacques certainly wasn't taking orders from Ozpin on that one. Etc.

    Even creating the Maidens turned out to be a mistake not because of anything he did but because other people kept hunting them down to steal their power so they could rule with an iron fist. Ozpin needed to hide the Maidens because humanity at large proved that they could not be trusted with that power, who exactly was he supposed to leave in charge of protecting the Maidens other than himself?
    Even if he found a perfect person, organization, kingdom or whatever to be responsible for the Maidens that person, organization, kingdom would grow old, die and the old guard would be replaced with a new generation. How much changing of the guard do you suppose it would take before someone decided to use the power of the Maidens for personal gain, or that they deserved the power for themselves? How long before a Leo ends up in charge and hands over all the Maidens to Salem out of fear or promises of power?

    The same thing goes likely goes for the Relics, except worse since it seems that anyone can just pick the things up without any specific requirements for transferring ownership. There are good odds that the chaos and war that Qrow warns about if humanity as a whole found out about the Relics is something that Ozpin has seen happen before. Possibly multiple times. If the people of our world found out that literal divine Relics that possessed unfathomable power was a thing that actually existed then you can bet your ass there would be wars fought over them.

    Ozpin is certainly flawed, and likely will give up his position as the hidden puppetmaster at some point during the show, possibly before or after RWBY finds a better solution. But its kind of annoying how people go on about him being a bad person for doing his best to fix the fuck-ups of both himself and more importantly humanity as a whole.
     
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    Mook said:
    He's fucked up more than anyone else because he's lived longer than anyone else and had far more time to make mistakes. If you compare amount of mistakes made relative to ones lifespan the equation would look a lot more favorable for him. Humanity is perfectly capable of fucking up without his input.

    Slavery for example was not something he instituted and in fact was abolished because of him. Humans discriminated against Faunus without his input and while he might not be doing as much as he could be doing to fix that he is at least openly advocating for equality. Vacuo being turned into a third-world hellhole by aggressive colonialism? Humans did that on their own. Outlawing emotions? Mantle did that without his input and tried to force it on the world. The Great War? Mistral's unchecked expansionism met with Valian nationalism. Maybe there was a way he could have handled the situation better but at the very least he tried to avoid starting a war, which is more than what can be said of everyone else in that situation. The SDC turning its workers into effectively slaves and destroying other businesses to create a exploitative monopoly? Jacques certainly wasn't taking orders from Ozpin on that one. Etc.

    Even creating the Maidens turned out to be a mistake not because of anything he did but because other people kept hunting them down to steal their power so they could rule with an iron fist. Ozpin needed to hide the Maidens because humanity at large proved that they could not be trusted with that power, who exactly was he supposed to leave in charge of protecting the Maidens other than himself?
    Even if he found a perfect person, organization, kingdom or whatever to be responsible for the Maidens that person, organization, kingdom would grow old, die and the old guard would be replaced with a new generation. How much changing of the guard do you suppose it would take before someone decided to use the power of the Maidens for personal gain, or that they deserved the power for themselves? How long before a Leo ends up in charge and hands over all the Maidens to Salem out of fear or promises of power?

    The same thing goes likely goes for the Relics, except worse since it seems that anyone can just pick the things up without any specific requirements for transferring ownership. There are good odds that the chaos and war that Qrow warns about if humanity as a whole found out about the Relics is something that Ozpin has seen happen before. Possibly multiple times. If the people of our world found out that literal divine Relics that possessed unfathomable power was a thing that actually existed then you can bet your ass there would be wars fought over them.

    Ozpin is certainly flawed, and likely will give up his position as the hidden puppetmaster at some point during the show, possibly before or after RWBY finds a better solution. But its kind of annoying how people go on about him being a bad person for doing his best to fix the fuck-ups of both himself and more importantly humanity as a whole.
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    Considering the fact that Ozpin sent a team of kids and one teacher with no method of communicating back to him or calling in backup to investigate a terrorist base (resulting in a major attack), allowed Cinder and her flunkies to commit multiple crimes under his nose without even trying to investigate them or make a list of suspects (he admitted that he knew the enemy was at Beacon in "Brawl in the Family," but he sure as hell didn't seem to be doing much about it), and sent his most promising cadet away from the fight between him and Cinder when she probably could have made quite a difference based on what we saw of the previous Maiden battle, I'd be surprised if there was a single person on the entire planet less qualified for leadership than Ozpin. Quite frankly, I don't think we see him make a single good or even just non insane and obviously self destructive decision in the entirety of the first three seasons.

    And he should have recognized that long before things got to this point.
     
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    Mook said:
    Slavery for example was not something he instituted and in fact was abolished because of him. Humans discriminated against Faunus without his input and while he might not be doing as much as he could be doing to fix that he is at least openly advocating for equality
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    Um, where was any of this confirmed? we have good reason to believe he was a king of a kingdom that didn't use slaves, but we have no way of knowing if that was cos of him. Nor do we know anything about what influence or views he's had on Faunus or on others views on Faunus in the past.
    Leila Hann said:
    with no method of communicating back to him or calling in backup to investigate a terrorist base
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    I think that was just bad luck/reception from being underground.
     
    Leila Hann said:
    Considering the fact that Ozpin sent a team of kids and one teacher with no method of communicating back to him or calling in backup to investigate a terrorist base, allowed Cinder and her flunkies to commit multiple crimes under his nose without even trying to investigate them or make a list of suspects (he admitted that he knew the enemy was at Beacon in "Brawl in the Family," but he sure as hell didn't seem to be doing much about it), and sent his most promising cadet away from the fight between him and Cinder when she probably could have made quite a difference based on what we saw of the previous Maiden battle, I'd be surprised if there was a single person on the entire planet less qualified for leadership than Ozpin.

    And he should have recognized that long before things got to this point.
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    The fanon is strong in this one.

    Ozpin sent the kids with a teacher because he knew that unless he locked them up in a cell they would just sneak their way there unsupervised anyway. They also did have a means of communication, their Scrolls. Ruby happened to be in areas with bad signal both times she tried but the second time she was underground and the first time it wouldn't have been a problem if she hadn't been so unbelievably unlucky to happen to stand on the one section of the entire city where the ground was unstable enough to collapse and send her falling into the abyss. Even that wouldn't have been a problem if her scythe had fallen down with her. The only reason the mission at Mt Glenn went to shit was because of that almost divine intervention level of bad luck, if Ruby hadn't fallen into the hole she could have reported back to Oobleck and then they could have called Ozpin from the top of the building they were in where the signal would likely be stronger. Even without the signal if they had all gone in as a team with a plan and the element of surprise instead of needing to rush in to save Ruby they could have likely stomped the White Fang there on their own. Same thing if Zwei hadn't gone out for a pee, it would have just taken them longer to find the White Fang but there wouldn't have been any real danger to any of them. Not planning for random acts of God does not make Ozpin a bad leader.


    That's just making up faults to complain about. Ozpin spends 90% of his time off-screen. We didn't get a bunch of scenes of him going over the several hundred/thousand long list of suspects only to fail to find the right ones because that would have been boring and frustrating. He suspected that Salem's minions were at Beacon but for all he knew they could be anyone from the cafeteria staff to some random soldiers in the army Ironwood brought with him. Cinder and co were vetted by one of his most trusted subordinates who was also a traitor and covering up for them. They likely would have been at the bottom of the list of suspects before the leg incident and after that it was too late to do anything about it. Things getting fucked because a person Ozpin delegated responsibility towards turned his back on humanity is not exactly a great argument towards making Ozpin give up all responsibility and letting other people lead.


    If by the previous Maiden battle you mean the one with Amber then again no, you are just flat out wrong. In Volume 4 Qrow specifically calls out Amber as being young and inexperienced, hence why she was targeted in the first place. Both the brief flashes we saw of Cinder against Ozpin and the later fight between Cinder and the Spring Maiden in Volume 5 shows that Pyrrha would have been so vastly outclassed in that fight that she would serve as little more than a speed-bump at best and be actively detrimental as a hostage/human shield at worst. If not making his students die to provide him with a fleeting tactical advantage is your definition of bad leadership then I don't want to know what you think a good leader looks like.


    Zam said:
    Um, where was any of this confirmed? we have good reason to believe he was a king of a kingdom that didn't use slaves, but we have no way of knowing if that was cos of him.Nor do we know anything about what influence or views he's had on Faunus or on others views on Faunus in the past.
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    Assuming that Miles & Kerry aren't trolling the King of Vale was a previous incarnation of Ozpin. The King of Vale set in place new laws in the treaty of Vytal, laws that among other things abolished slavery and gave Faunus more rights.
     
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    Mook said:
    Assuming that Miles & Kerry aren't trolling the King of Vale was a previous incarnation of Ozpin.
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    They've all but outright confirmed that he is, since they've stated repeatedly that he's the one who built the Academies.

    Uncle said:
    He couldn't have given them radios or anything with a stronger signal than a cellphone?
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    They're not cellphones, they're scrolls. And yes, there is a difference, because scrolls can apparently still be used for communications even without a CCT Tower, the range is just shorter.

    They've also got other functions you can look up here: Scroll
     
    Uncle said:
    He couldn't have given them radios or anything with a stronger signal than a cellphone?
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    What Tython said, barring like maybe some kind of signal booster we don't know might exist it seems like the CCT is the best available.

    Now, granted, I fall into the distrusting Oz category but I have my own views on that.
     
    Leingod said:
    Uncle said:
    He couldn't have given them radios or anything with a stronger signal than a cellphone?
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    They're not cellphones, they're scrolls. And yes, there is a difference, because scrolls can apparently still be used for communications even without a CCT Tower, the range is just shorter.

    They've also got other functions you can look up here: Scroll
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    Even leaving aside whether or not there was something more reliable the whole point was to go incognito under the guise of just being a routine Search & Destroy training mission to kill Grimm. Bringing big bulky radio equipment or signal boosters could have risked blowing their cover. Since they didn't know who Salem's agents at Beacon was it makes sense that they would try to keep as low a profile as possible.
     
    Tython82 said:
    Considering the reliance on CCT for any communitcation tech and nary a hint of any other form of communication tech in remnant I doubt it would have worked any better.
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    You mean like the TV that Taiyang and Yang were watching a Valish newscast on, from Patch, during the aftermath if the tower's destruction?

    Oh, and @Mook? If i felt like "making up things to complain about," I'd have picked a more challenging target than RWBY.
     
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    Mook said:
    Even leaving aside whether or not there was something more reliable the whole point was to go incognito under the guise of just being a routine Search & Destroy training mission to kill Grimm. Bringing big bulky radio equipment or signal boosters could have risked blowing their cover. Since they didn't know who Salem's agents at Beacon was it makes sense that they would try to keep as low a profile as possible.
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    I'd think that if it were practical, you'd want to bring long range communications equipment for any mission in the field, whether you were hunting Grimm or other people. Either way, there'd be the risk of something going wrong and needing a quick extraction.
     
    Mook said:
    Even leaving aside whether or not there was something more reliable the whole point was to go incognito under the guise of just being a routine Search & Destroy training mission to kill Grimm. Bringing big bulky radio equipment or signal boosters could have risked blowing their cover. Since they didn't know who Salem's agents at Beacon was it makes sense that they would try to keep as low a profile as possible.
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    I not sure I buy that.

    If you want to convince your enemies that this is a routine mission and you're going to an area with bad reception, it would make sense to bring a signal booster. Otherwise, your enemies might wonder why you didn't bring one.

    Its not like they couldn't have contact Ozpin directly with one. Or are you suggesting their communications could have been intercepted?
     
    Leila Hann said:
    You mean like the TV that Taiyang and Yang were watching a Valish newscast on, from Patch, during the aftermath if the tower's destruction?

    Oh, and @Mook? If i felt like "making up things to complain about," I'd have picked a more challenging target than RWBY.
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    Leingod said:
    Short-range communication still works without the towers, the CCTs allow for huge amounts of information to be passed around over much longer distances.
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    How far is Patch from Vale anyway? The scene of scale for the world is confusing.
     
    Uncle said:
    How far is Patch from Vale anyway? The scene of scale for the world is confusing.
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    Pretty close, since Ruby and Yang have both been seen hanging out in Vale proper at night. So presumably there's a ferry or something they can take to get home; kinda like how England to France is just a 90-minute ride by ferry.
     
    Tython82 said:
    Indeed however the argument you were presenting was about Radio tech or rather other forms of two way communication not television broadcast tech which is usually one way.
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    TV broadcast tech is basically just radio broadcast tech with more data encoded in it, and two-way radio communication is just two people with radio broadcast tech taking turns broadcasting.

    In the Volume 4 trailer, we also see Team RNJR communicating by using their scrolls in a "local" walkie-talkie mode. So handheld two-way radio tech exists. No way of knowing what the range on that is, however.
     
    Allow me to clarify since I now have a moment and I am not writing off the seat of my pants so to speak.

    Yes TV signals are radio based however to receive said signals you need need certain Antennas especially for HD signals which are actually all over the place and if you are facing the right direction with such an Antenna you can get free uncompressed tv signals for free. Tai most likely has such an Antenna and has it positioned in such a way that he can receive said signal clearly(depending on the actual range of broadcasts from Vale to Patch he may have not needed it) As for Ruby and crew again you would most likely need special equipment and to be able to transmit clearly which may have not been possible given the state of mount Glenn what with the Grimm crawling around to distract the group or even possibly wrecking the transmission tech. So even if they had what could be bulky equipment they still might not have been able to send a clear signal to be recieved.
     
    Tython82 said:
    Allow me to clarify since I now have a moment and I am not writing off the seat of my pants so to speak.

    Yes TV signals are radio based however to receive said signals you need need certain Antennas especially for HD signals which are actually all over the place and if you are facing the right direction with such an Antenna you can get free uncompressed tv signals for free. Tai most likely has such an Antenna and has it positioned in such a way that he can receive said signal clearly(depending on the actual range of broadcasts from Vale to Patch he may have not needed it) As for Ruby and crew again you would most likely need special equipment and to be able to transmit clearly which may have not been possible given the state of mount Glenn what with the Grimm crawling around to distract the group or even possibly wrecking the transmission tech. So even if they had what could be bulky equipment they still might not have been able to send a clear signal to be recieved.
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    And yet being able to send a signal - any signal - could have been useful. Especially since with Ironwood's help they could have had an airship patrol "conveniently in the area" - meaning just close enough to be in broadcast range, positioned to be able to receive the signal around the mountains if those are an issue, and so on. You know, someone to receive even a garbled signal and relay it to Vale and the rest of Ironwood's fleet.

    I mean it isn't like this is an old tactic in the real world or anything..
     
    Nicholai said:
    And yet being able to send a signal - any signal - could have been useful. Especially since with Ironwood's help they could have had an airship patrol "conveniently in the area" - meaning just close enough to be in broadcast range, positioned to be able to receive the signal around the mountains if those are an issue, and so on. You know, someone to receive even a garbled signal and relay it to Vale and the rest of Ironwood's fleet.

    I mean it isn't like this is an old tactic in the real world or anything..
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    Keep in mind you are talking about a hidden para military organization, if a ship was 'conveniently' in the area, someone would likely be calling Cinder and things would go bad for the heroes fast.
     
    Zam said:
    Keep in mind you are talking about a hidden para military organization, if a ship was 'conveniently' in the area, someone would likely be calling Cinder and things would go bad for the heroes fast.
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    You're verging on villain super competence here. They would have to notice the airship and then immediately discover / guess that it was in position to relay a signal from an infiltration team. It would also require them not to assume that the airship was just a regular patrol to keep the Grimm numbers under control / scout the wilderness around the Kingdom. (Something that should be fairly common given the world design element that the Grimm are supposed to be a serious threat.)

    For bonus points the White Fang didn't appear to notice the Bullhead dropping off Oobleck and Team RWBY when it flew right into Mountain Glenn- meaning directly over their hidden base.
     
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