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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Mook said:
    Personally I don't think the Gods of Light and Darkness had anything to do with it. Those two sound like very primordial gods, the kind that shows up at the very beginning of a mythos to create the world but then either fade away or get replaced by the younger generation of gods, who are the ones that actually care about dicking around with mortals. Then eventually that younger generation of gods also gets supplanted and the age of man begins. And then man makes robots with souls and gets replaced by its creations in turn. :p


    No but seriously though, Qrow's talk about the two gods only specified that those two specific gods were real. It didn't say anything about those being the only gods who are real. For example the light and dark duo don't really explain stuff like where Faunus come from, or Silver Eyed Warriors, or Dust. I think all that stuff might have come from a younger generation of gods that added to the older gods works, and that younger generation are the ones that cursed Ozpin.




    This for example looks like something that could very well be a god or messiah of the Faunus. A animal god handing out blessings to its chosen people could be a very handy explanation for where Faunus come from and why their biology is so blatantly magical.
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    I tend to think of that hooded figure as a sort of proto-White Fang person before people popularized it. Kind of like how Assassins were in Assassin's Creed.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    I tend to think of that hooded figure as a sort of proto-White Fang person before people popularized it. Kind of like how Assassins were in Assassin's Creed.
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    I also think it could be just some kind of ancestor worship thing, but the stained glass things behind the figure's shoulders takes (in my mind) the aesthetics away from just being reverent into being full on deity/saint status. Even if the figure is a prophet instead of the god itself it could still suggest that there is a god (or gods) that the Faunus worship.
     
    Mook said:
    No but seriously though, Qrow's talk about the two gods only specified that those two specific gods were real. It didn't say anything about those being the only gods who are real.
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    Sure, I mean... maybe? There really isn't anything to back up or disprove that, other than there are still a million and one unanswered things in the worldbuilding.
     
    Mook said:
    No but seriously though, Qrow's talk about the two gods only specified that those two specific gods were real. It didn't say anything about those being the only gods who are real. For example the light and dark duo don't really explain stuff like where Faunus come from, or Silver Eyed Warriors, or Dust. I think all that stuff might have come from a younger generation of gods that added to the older gods works, and that younger generation are the ones that cursed Ozpin.
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    As I recall, Qrow opened up the story of the Two Brothers by saying something along the lines of, "There have been a lot of religions in Remnant; most people don't believe in them anymore, but according to Ozpin, at least one of them is real." So while the Two Brothers are the most important ones (not just for making the world, humans and Grimm, but also for leaving behind the Relics), the door is still open for others, since neither Qrow nor Ozpin have ever definitely said those two are the only ones. But we have no proof for it yet, either.

    Mook said:
    I also think it could be just some kind of ancestor worship thing, but the stained glass things behind the figure's shoulders takes (in my mind) the aesthetics away from just being reverent into being full on deity/saint status. Even if the figure is a prophet instead of the god itself it could still suggest that there is a god (or gods) that the Faunus worship.
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    The notes and artwork shown in the credits sequences show that there are also a bunch of big stone statues of that same figure; in one of them, the figure is holding a javelin. So that combined with Ilia's kneeling posture before the Albains walk in, the candles, and the Albains themselves having a vaguely spiritual, even cultish air about them definitely gives the impression of them being religious.
     
    Barnaby said:
    Sure, I mean... maybe? There really isn't anything to back up or disprove that, other than there are still a million and one unanswered things in the worldbuilding.
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    Have some patience young padawan, One Piece has been serialized for 21 years by this point and we still barely know anything about Gol D Roger, the Void Century, the true origins of the World Government, what lies at Raftel, what Blackbeards deal is, etc. An extreme example perhaps but compared to a lot of long running series RWBY is extremely generous with information and world-building.
     
    Leingod said:
    He needs Oscar's permission to use his body,
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    He took over Oscar by force in the fight.

    Leingod said:
    That only holds any water if Ozpin actually wanted this state of affairs, rather than it being literal divine punishment for his failures. The "original Ozpin" was charged to defeat Salem and failed, and now his soul gets forcibly merged with that of someone else until he gets it right. It really makes no sense to me to decide that Ozpin is a villain for circumstances that he has no control over and which were forced on him by the gods because he wasn't able to defeat Salem.
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    Keep in mind, Ozpin claimed this, he hasn't offered any proof and based on the World of Remnant thanks to his skill in Aura he's apparently more than human, which could explain his reincarnation without any so far unseen divine entities.

    Sorry for breaking up your post like this, I didn't want to discuss the whole subject and to just note these specific points, however if I have accidentally missed or taken these lines out of context, then I apologize.
     
    Zam said:
    He took over Oscar by force in the fight.
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    Fair enough, I'd forgotten that. It was a struggle though, and immediately afterward Ozpins voice disappeared and Oscar collapsed after relaying his message, so if nothing else Ozpin clearly can't just do whatever he wants with Oscar's body, which is the main point there.

    Zam said:
    Keep in mind, Ozpin claimed this, he hasn't offered any proof and based on the World of Remnant thanks to his skill in Aura he's apparently more than human, which could explain his reincarnation without any so far unseen divine entities.
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    Yeah, and Ozpin has never told an outright lie at any point in the series so far as I recall. He has a very bad habit of withholding information, but whatever he does choose to tell the characters is, so far at least from what's been confirmed by others, always true.

    It fits more with how his character has been established for him to be telling the truth about it. Probably not the whole truth, but still the truth. Especially since if he felt like lying about either the origins of the Relics or his own reincarnation thing, he could come up any number of stories that would be more plausible to the (implied to be increasingly irreligious these days) people he's trying to convince than "so gods are actually a thing and they're kinda lazy dicks."
     
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    Leingod said:
    Fair enough, I'd forgotten that. It was a struggle though, and immediately afterward Ozpins voice disappeared and Oscar collapsed after relaying his message, so if nothing else Ozpin clearly can't just do whatever he wants with Oscar's body, which is the main point there.
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    Possible, but that could also be because he spent most of that fight running from or getting wailed on by Hazel. Plus he can access whatever of Oscar's memories he wants but Oscar doesn't seem to have the same freedom.

    Leingod said:
    Yeah, and Ozpin has never told an outright lie at any point in the series so far as I recall. He has a very bad habit of withholding information, but whatever he does choose to tell the characters is, so far at least from what's been confirmed by others, always true.

    It fits more with how his character has been established for him to be telling the truth about it. Probably not the whole truth, but still the truth. Especially since if he felt like lying about either the origins of the Relics or his own reincarnation thing, he could come up any number of stories that would be more plausible to the (implied to be increasingly irreligious these days) people he's trying to convince than "so gods are actually a thing and they're kinda lazy dicks."
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    Wouldn't covering up the Maidens count as a lie? Plus who is confirming it is an important question I feel.

    Possible, but he may have been using the gods stories for a long time and it is thus woven into the history of his cabal and so breaking from that story may not be possible.
     
    Zam said:
    Wouldn't covering up the Maidens count as a lie? Plus who is confirming it is an important question I feel.
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    How is that a lie?? As annoying as this may seem the old phrase "You never asked" comes to mind since Ozpin does relent the true nature of the Maidens to Pyrrah when he asks her about the legend so that he can prepare her. Also if covering up the Maidens is a lie then Yang told a pretty big one by not informing them about Raven being the Spring Maiden right after she chewed Ozpin out for keeping secrets that could be very important.
     
    Zam said:
    Plus he can access whatever of Oscar's memories he wants but Oscar doesn't seem to have the same freedom.
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    Oscar started accessing Ozpin's memories the moment he started thinking about it (even thinking it as though it were his own memory), and Ozpin has said that Oscar is going to absorb his (and every other "Ozpin's") memories and muscle memory as time goes. Notice that when speaking about the Wizard or his original incarnation, Ozpin speaks in the first person? Oscar did the same thing when accessing Ozpin's memory of Leo's office, momentarily slipping into the first person before realizing what he was saying and freaking out; the process is gradual, but it's happening.

    Also, which of Oscar's memories has Ozpin been shown to access? Genuine question, because the most I can think of is him knowing that Oscar wants more than a life as a simple farmboy, but that's not exactly a hard guess to make. Especially since Ozpin states that his soul is always fused to a "like-minded" soul.

    Wouldn't covering up the Maidens count as a lie? Plus who is confirming it is an important question I feel.
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    Not really, that just fits in with Ozpin's pattern of just not telling people things he thinks they shouldn't know. It makes sense; when you're the only guy in the know and no one can really force you to tell them anything, it's much easier to just not tell people things than invent some complex web of lies that you have to keep consistent with each other.

    Possible, but he may have been using the gods stories for a long time and it is thus woven into the history of his cabal and so breaking from that story may not be possible.
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    Occam's Razor is your friend. When you start having to construct elaborate conspiracies within an elaborate conspiracy to "explain" that Ozpin is in fact a liar that can't be trusted even though everything so far has given the impression that he just doesn't tell people things he doesn't want them to know rather than inventing bullcrap stories about fake gods, you should probably stop and just wait for more information.
     
    Tython82 said:
    How is that a lie?? As annoying as this may seem the old phrase "You never asked" comes to mind since Ozpin does relent the true nature of the Maidens to Pyrrah when he asks her about the legend so that he can prepare her. Also if covering up the Maidens is a lie then Yang told a pretty big one by not informing them about Raven being the Spring Maiden right after she chewed Ozpin out for keeping secrets that could be very important.
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    Because people 'did' know of the Maidens, then Ozpin removed them from public record, hiding them in secrecy and convincing people they did not exist.

    Yang's actions are as irrelevant as Blake hiding her Faunus nature is to Ozpin's machinations, they have nothing to do with his own actions before and after meeting the cast, his interactions with Oscar, ETC. We are discussing, Ozpin exclusively here, saying "Another character also lied at one point" doesn't change anything.


    Leingod said:
    Oscar started accessing Ozpin's memories the moment he started thinking about it (even thinking it as though it were his own memory), and Ozpin has said that Oscar is going to absorb his (and every other "Ozpin's") memories and muscle memory as time goes. Notice that when speaking about the Wizard or his original incarnation, Ozpin speaks in the first person? Oscar did the same thing when accessing Ozpin's memory of Leo's office, momentarily slipping into the first person before realizing what he was saying and freaking out; the process is gradual, but it's happening.

    Also, which of Oscar's memories has Ozpin been shown to access? Genuine question, because the most I can think of is him knowing that Oscar wants more than a life as a simple farmboy, but that's not exactly a hard guess to make. Especially since Ozpin states that his soul is always fused to a "like-minded" soul.
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    Honestly this level of debate is kind of what I wanted to avoid, because at this point I think its a case of, you trust Ozpin or you don't and changing minds is not liable to happen, because those who do and don't look at this scenes in an entirely different light which doesn't translate well to the other.

    Leingod said:
    Not really, that just fits in with Ozpin's pattern of just not telling people things he thinks they shouldn't know. It makes sense; when you're the only guy in the know and no one can really force you to tell them anything, it's much easier to just not tell people things than invent some complex web of lies that you have to keep consistent with each other.
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    He had to erase them and convince people they weren't real, they didn't fade away by accident. Also a lie by omission is still a lie.

    Leingod said:
    Occam's Razor is your friend. When you start having to construct elaborate conspiracies within an elaborate conspiracy to "explain" that Ozpin is in fact a liar that can't be trusted even though everything so far has given the impression that he just doesn't tell people things he doesn't want them to know rather than inventing bullcrap stories about fake gods, you should probably stop and just wait for more information.
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    I don't really see what is elaborate about noting

    "The show keeps hinting this guy is not on the level to outright saying it, his story doesn't seem to add up and the world building outright says there is something unique about him specifically"

    All the people who agree with Ozpin are Ozpin loyalists, we haven't seen Salem or Cinder make comments about gods, its always Ozpin or one of his loyal servants confirming his stories who themselves joined the conspiracy later, well after everything has been set up and has tons of its own issues given how many members don't trust Opzin or turn traitor, or run away, Spring Maiden included.
     
    Bigger thing:

    Salem is wielding an army of soulless abominations intent on deliberately causing as much chaos and destruction as possible, with the mostly-confirmed goal of wiping out the human race. While Ozpin isn't exactly kosher, the fact is that the other side is pitch black.
     
    Richardson said:
    Bigger thing:

    Salem is wielding an army of soulless abominations intent on deliberately causing as much chaos and destruction as possible, with the mostly-confirmed goal of wiping out the human race. While Ozpin isn't exactly kosher, the fact is that the other side is pitch black.
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    What does that have to do with anything?

    Also all we know Salem wants is the relics, and given there's tons of Grimm but they aren't engaging in well organized strategic maneuvers to bring down the kingdoms, I am gonna assume her control is not 'that' extensive.
     
    Zam said:
    I don't really see what is elaborate about noting

    "The show keeps hinting this guy is not on the level to outright saying it, his story doesn't seem to add up and the world building outright says there is something unique about him specifically"

    All the people who agree with Ozpin are Ozpin loyalists, we haven't seen Salem or Cinder make comments about gods, its always Ozpin or one of his loyal servants confirming his stories who themselves joined the conspiracy later, well after everything has been set up and has tons of its own issues given how many members don't trust Opzin or turn traitor, or run away, Spring Maiden included.
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    The ones who defect don't seem to think he's wrong, though, they're just terrifying of Salem.
     
    Q99 said:
    The ones who defect don't seem to think he's wrong, though, they're just terrifying of Salem.
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    We have:
    Ironwood who constantly whined about being kept in the dark.
    Spring who fled for reasons vague at best.
    Raven who is, yes, terrified of Salem, but also seems to think of Opzin as manipulative and untrustworthy and claims to know more but would only tell Yang if she stayed.
    Lioheart who is indeed a coward.
     
    Zam said:
    What does that have to do with anything?
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    One side, however assholish, is on the side of life in general as far as we've been made aware, barring some 'WHAT A TWEST' turnaround. The other commands an army of abominations that regularly destroys every human they come across if at all possible, to the extent of only just barely managing to fail at destroying one of the five major cities left on the planet through her lieutenants. Sure, we can throw shit at Ozpin, but he's still playing on the side of civilization, and human life in general. The whole 'on the level' thing doesn't matter. Of course he's an asshole who needs to be shaken until all the secrets fall out of his pockets, but his level is still better than the marianas trench of the other side. Ozpin isn't some 'secret evildoer' unless RT is a bunch of complete hacks, and even if he is, we're still left with a 'we need him to survive' for the heroes at present. He probably deserves a reckoning coming to him, but for the moment, there's no viable alternatives that the heroes are left with. All of Ozpin's things have proven to be entirely correct in most cases. The maidens really are in threat, though he fucked up by not having even more protection on them and probably hiding them in the Atlas and Vale academies. It really is highly dangerous for the common public to know about Salem, because the polite fiction seems to be the only thing keeping her in the shadows instead of an all-out war. It really was necessary to hide the relics, because it turns out people really would go after them for their power.

    One of the more interesting things is that RWBY is basically: The Cabal of Secret and Masquerade Keepers are Mostly Right, The Anime.
     
    Richardson said:
    but his level is still better than the marianas trench of the other side.
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    Who is saying anything about the other side? Saying Ozpin is bad does not equal Salem good, she has nothing to do with this.
    Richardson said:
    Ozpin isn't some 'secret evildoer' unless RT is a bunch of complete hacks, and even if he is, we're still left with a 'we need him to survive' for the heroes at present. He probably deserves a reckoning coming to him, but for the moment, there's no viable alternatives that the heroes are left with. All of Ozpin's things have proven to be entirely correct in most cases. The maidens really are in threat, though he fucked up by not having even more protection on them and probably hiding them in the Atlas and Vale academies. It really is highly dangerous for the common public to know about Salem, because the polite fiction seems to be the only thing keeping her in the shadows instead of an all-out war. It really was necessary to hide the relics, because it turns out people really would go after them for their power.
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    All of this is highly questionable, suspect or down to personal opinions given I disagree with pretty much all of it.
     
    Zam said:
    We have:
    Ironwood who constantly whined about being kept in the dark.
    Spring who fled for reasons vague at best.
    Raven who is, yes, terrified of Salem, but also seems to think of Opzin as manipulative and untrustworthy and claims to know more but would only tell Yang if she stayed.
    Lioheart who is indeed a coward.
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    Ironwood mostly complains about strategy and long-term plans. Spring seemed to be afraid. Raven thinks that Ozpin is manipulating people into fighting his war and Lionheart called her out for sharing his cowardice being her main reason.

    The doubts seem mostly to be on the action side- either unsure of the grand strategy, disliking the compartmentalization (and some of it, like the Maidens, we know *exactly* why it's compartmentalized), or in Raven's case being recruited first, told second- note she didn't know how much Yang had been told when she made her statements (and Yang got told a lot more among arrival)..
     
    Richardson said:
    Salem is wielding an army of soulless abominations intent on deliberately causing as much chaos and destruction as possible, with the mostly-confirmed goal of wiping out the human race. While Ozpin isn't exactly kosher, the fact is that the other side is pitch black.
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    The problem I have with this kind of thinking is that it can justify almost anything. The grimm are evil, so building sweatshops is morally justified if it keeps the price of fuel low. The grimm are evil, therefore ethnic cleansing is alright so long as it provides some temporary degree of social stability.

    Meeting ultimate evil with ultimate justice (ie all things that have the slightest potential to oppose that evil), may be moral in a theoretical sense, but it's simply too permissive for me in practice.

    The protagonists need to hold themselves and those around them to a higher standard, even if they don't 'need' to.
     
    Q99 said:
    Ironwood mostly complains about strategy and long-term plans. Spring seemed to be afraid. Raven thinks that Ozpin is manipulating people into fighting his war and Lionheart called her out for sharing his cowardice being her main reason.

    The doubts seem mostly to be on the action side- either unsure of the grand strategy, disliking the compartmentalization (and some of it, like the Maidens, we know *exactly* why it's compartmentalized), or in Raven's case being recruited first, told second- note she didn't know how much Yang had been told when she made her statements (and Yang got told a lot more among arrival)..
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    He back-stabbed Ozpin, stole his job, hid Penny and is now adopting a "Screw you got mine" attitude to world politic which is basically the same as Raven's just minus the banditry, but extra on the oppression.

    We don't know why Spring left, the best we got was some Leo and Raven stuff which implied pressure and fear but the specifics still aren't elaborated on and it doesn't exactly give a good view of Ozpin's secret cabal if that's how one of their Maidens turns out.

    Leo can claim what he wants, that doesn't make him right, and as noted, Raven has many reasons, not all of which she has shared.

    We are told this by Ozpin, but he is also the only one besides Salem who 'can' tell us this, he could say Salem erased them from everyone's memories and we wouldn't know it isn't the truth.
     
    There could be areas of the mythological stuff Oz is lying about, but I don't think there's enough evidence pointing in that direction. I think he's saying most of it at least to the best of his knowledge- which isn't necessarily flawless.
     
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