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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • maguado87 said:
    Oh I thought it was
    A. Monty death
    or
    B. RWBY is dying meme
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    The thread was named after the Volume 2 OP song, as @Leingod explained. It also refers to leaving the previous RWBY thread (RWBY Thread II on SB).

    The thread still has the same name it was given when it was first created (2014 June 10) so naturally the title could not have been a reference to Monty's death (2015 Feb 1), though it does seem fitting in hindsight. It certainly doesn't refer to any recent foolery, either.

    It looks like you even posted in this thread yourself back in 2015, so I guess you just didn't notice that the title hadn't changed. :wink:
     
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    So I have a theory on why Team RNJR seemed to take the long route by walking too Mistral and why the show doesn't treat it as a boneheaded move.

    First there's the stuff that's directly in the show itself:
    Reporter 03: "...Vale council voted this week to continue to ban any air traffic that does not have a direct correlation with evacuation. The council has made it clear that they feel—"
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    Since Team RNJR are not citizens of Mistral they could not take any airships from Vale to Mistral until all of Mistrals citizens in Vale had been safely evacuated from Vale, a process that was still ongoing months after the Fall of Beacon. So air transport is out.


    Next up is just taking a boat to Mistral. However here there is something to consider:
    Like most successful kingdoms, Vale's survival over the years can mostly be attributed to prime real estate.

    Its front is protected by steep mountains, and its back is against waters too shallow for any real threat to pop out of.
    Not to say I haven't heard some crazy fish stories.
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    Unlike our world the seas of Remnant are filled with giant monsters, which severely limits which parts of the ocean are safe to travel in. Let's take a look at which locations we know are relatively safe:





    Firstly there's the ocean to Vale's back. Secondly the part of the sea between northern Anima and southern Solitas. Thirdly there's the small stretch between westernmost Anima and easternmost Sanus. Additionally since Blake traveled by boat from Sanus to Menagerie and then from Menagerie to Mistral there has to be some sea routes to and from Menagerie and those locations. Furthermore the Great War episode of World of Remnant seems to suggest that by sea its a lot easier for Mistral to reach Mantle/Atlas than it is for Vale.

    So I decided to color in the world map with some suggested sea routes and "here there be Ctuhullus" locations:



    Simply put my suggestion is that there is no safe sea route directly from Vale to Mistral. In order to get to Mistral by boat from the Kingdom of Vale you first need to walk to the east coast and take a boat from there, and if you want to take a boat all the way to Windpath then you need to circumnavigate basically the entire continent of Anima. These restricted sea routes are also why Mistral only really started trading with Mantle after they had set up colonies on the northern coast of Anima, before that there simply was no safe way for ships from Windpath to get to Solitas.

    So instead of sitting around on a boat for months Team RNJR decided to gamble on being able to find a airship in one of the towns on Anima, and do some good while they were at it. If Raven hadn't been a bitch and burned down Shion they probably would have gotten to Mistral faster by the land route than they would by sea. And the need to walk to the east coast instead of being able to take air transport is also why so much time had passed by the time we first see them and Blake in Volume 4.


    Finally there's the trains silliness. That one is explained in the show itself really:




    Grimm attack railroads and Mistral makes extensive use of airships (probably because they have easy access to tons of gravity Dust). Instead of running a railroad all the way across the continent which would require defending stupidly large stretches of land from Grimm attacks they instead prefer to just use airships to transport people and goods from east to west. Oscar was able to use a train because he lives in a area with more ground traffic, either because its closer to Mistral, easier to defend, or has some valuable goods (like food or Dust) that needs to be transported in bulk.
     
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    Tython82 said:
    Wait, wasn't the burning or rather the destruction of Shion a result of the Grimm coming down on Shion due to Ravens raid causing lots of negative emotions particularly fear?.
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    Yes. Which makes it Raven's fault since she was the one who attacked in the first place. A starving bear might eat people but if you dump someone into the bear's cave then saying "I didn't kill them, it was the bear that ate them!" is not an acceptable defense.
     
    Mook said:
    Yes. Which makes it Raven's fault since she was the one who attacked in the first place. A starving bear might eat people but if you dump someone into the bear's cave then saying "I didn't kill them, it was the bear that ate them!" is not an acceptable defense.
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    Sure, but she still didn't set it on fire for laughs, or on purpose, things just spiraled out of control, this would be more like mugging someone and then like, a serial killer shows up partway and you run off.

    Except you knew a serial killed was prowling around, but that's only cos there's one on every street corner but muggings is all you're good at so, hey, it pays the bills XD
     
    Zam said:
    Sure, but she still didn't set it on fire for laughs, or on purpose, things just spiraled out of control, this would be more like mugging someone and then like, a serial killer shows up partway and you run off.

    Except you knew a serial killed was prowling around, but that's only cos there's one on every street corner but muggings is all you're good at so, hey, it pays the bills XD
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    In this metaphor Raven would also be a top class bounty hunter that could easily make a living arresting the serial killers instead of mugging people. So still a bitch. :V
     
    Mook said:
    In this metaphor Raven would also be a top class bounty hunter that could easily make a living arresting the serial killers instead of mugging people. So still a bitch. :V
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    I dislike the language,

    Plus in this context being a bounty hunter also requires being connected to someone she loathes and fears.
     
    Zam said:
    I dislike the language,

    Plus in this context being a bounty hunter also requires being connected to someone she loathes and fears.
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    She doesn't fear Ozpin and she plays up how he "used" her to cover up for the fact that she mostly left because she couldn't take it and ran off scared because she fears Salem. Pretty much her whole arc in Volume 5 was the characters and viewers realizing that Raven is a coward who hides behind a lot of Social Darwinist horsesh*t to justify herself and avoid confronting the truth.

    That she tried to establish a rapport with Lionheart when she realized that he'd sold out the world because of fear, and that even Lionheart saw through her bullcrap and called it out as simple fear when she tried to spin their mutual cowardice into "strength" should say a lot.
     
    Leingod said:
    She doesn't fear Ozpin and she plays up how he "used" her to cover up for the fact that she mostly left because she couldn't take it and ran off scared because she fears Salem. Pretty much her whole arc in Volume 5 was the characters and viewers realizing that Raven is a coward who hides behind a lot of Social Darwinist horsesh*t to justify herself and avoid confronting the truth.

    That she tried to establish a rapport with Lionheart when she realized that he'd sold out the world because of fear, and that even Lionheart saw through her bullcrap and called it out as simple fear when she tried to spin their mutual cowardice into "strength" should say a lot.
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    Its far too late at night for me to debate this, so I'll just say I think that is not an accurate read of Raven's take on Ozpin given how she framed him, though the using part of it is present, so I guess:

    Zam said:
    Plus in this context being a bounty hunter also requires being connected to someone she loathes and feels will use her.
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    would be more apt?
     
    I still think Raven intentionally destroyed Shion to stop Ruby from going further because "you can't beat Salem".
     
    Psyga315 said:
    I still think Raven intentionally destroyed Shion to stop Ruby from going further because "you can't beat Salem".
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    How and Why??? At that point in the story Raven had no idea that Ruby was even in Mistral nor would she have even cared about her. She was only in that inn/bar to talk to Qrow and gather intel on weather Salem had acquired the Relic at Vale nothing more.
     
    Zam said:
    Sure, but she still didn't set it on fire for laughs, or on purpose, things just spiraled out of control, this would be more like mugging someone and then like, a serial killer shows up partway and you run off.

    Except you knew a serial killed was prowling around, but that's only cos there's one on every street corner but muggings is all you're good at so, hey, it pays the bills XD
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    It's a bit more tied than that- not only is it a known thing that attracts Grimm, but Grimm attacking neatly covers up who the real culprits were, and the defenders know they need to keep something in reserve for the inevitable Grimm followup.
     
    I stopped paying attention to Grimm Eclipse long before Horde Mode came out but recently I was reminded of the advertised turret feature and decided to check out what that ended up like. Did you guys know that Remnant has ice guns?



    Seriously, they shoot blue beams and anything hit by it is instantly encased in thick blocks of solid ice. I seriously hope that slightly less video-gamey looking variants of these things show up in the show itself. And add the rest of the turrets while they're at it. Miniguns, grenade launchers, shotguns, oh my.







    In the game the stalks holding them up are way to thin and there's no room for ammo, then again the heavy cannon isn't much better so even as they are now they would still fit in, in the main show.
     
    Leingod said:
    I mean, Ice Dust is pretty much key to Weiss's arsenal, so...
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    Yeah but Weiss manipulates Dust with Aura. This is a automated machine with a gun attached so its pretty different, and a cool application of Dust based technology. Another interesting thing I noticed from Grimm Eclipse is that the Red Androids seem to have some kind of personal force-field protecting them. That's another thing I really want to see in the main show. The force-fields in Amity Colosseum were cool and using force-fields to ensure that no accidents happen in Beacon's combat class is neat (or at least I think those were force-fields, don't see the point in holographic walls). But I really want to see them actually used in combat, either on tanks or aircraft, buildings, or robots or people.
     
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    Q99 said:
    It's a bit more tied than that- not only is it a known thing that attracts Grimm, but Grimm attacking neatly covers up who the real culprits were, and the defenders know they need to keep something in reserve for the inevitable Grimm followup.
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    Sure, but Raven also didn't want or expect the village to be destroyed so 'covering her tracks' wasn't really part of the plan and rather unnecessary really given Mistral is content to ignore them.

    Mook said:
    I stopped paying attention to Grimm Eclipse long before Horde Mode came out but recently I was reminded of the advertised turret feature and decided to check out what that ended up like. Did you guys know that Remnant has ice guns?
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    That is very cool, though doesn't Neptune also have one?

    But yeah I get your general point, Remnant can mass produce super villains XD
     
    The Sandman said:
    Now I want Leila to keep watching past Volume Three just to see her reaction when Ozpin literally takes up residence inside a young boy.
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    Honestly the pedophilic angle is probably the least weird and upsetting part of that whole relationship, when viewed critically.

    I mean, when are they just going to come out and say Oz is a villain?

    Honestly, "well-meaning but still damaged authority figure" Oz is way less interesting than "authority figure that must be rebelled against" Oz.
     
    The Sandman said:
    Now I want Leila to keep watching past Volume Three just to see her reaction when Ozpin literally takes up residence inside a young boy.
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    While that would certainly be funny in a certain way, I honestly never understood people who took that line of thinking seriously. I can't really see anything remotely sexual in Ozpin having his consciousness forcibly shunted into the mind of a 14-year old boy. He needs Oscar's permission to use his body, and Oscar is both aware of everything he's doing and can take control back at any time.

    And then there's the fact that Ozpin's eventual fate is for his consciousness to eventually just fade away entirely into the conglomerate of memories of all of Oscar's predecessors, so I don't get anyone who still seriously think that Ozpin wants this state of affairs.

    Barnaby said:
    Honestly the pedophilic angle is probably the least weird and upsetting part of that whole relationship, when viewed critically.

    I mean, when are they just going to come out and say Oz is a villain?
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    That only holds any water if Ozpin actually wanted this state of affairs, rather than it being literal divine punishment for his failures. The "original Ozpin" was charged to defeat Salem and failed, and now his soul gets forcibly merged with that of someone else until he gets it right. It really makes no sense to me to decide that Ozpin is a villain for circumstances that he has no control over and which were forced on him by the gods because he wasn't able to defeat Salem.
     
    Leingod said:
    That only holds any water if Ozpin actually wanted this state of affairs, rather than it being literal divine punishment for his failures. The "original Ozpin" was charged to defeat Salem and failed, and now his soul gets forcibly merged with that of someone else until he gets it right. It really makes no sense to me to decide that Ozpin is a villain for circumstances that he has no control over and which were forced on him by the gods because he wasn't able to defeat Salem.
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    Hmm, maybe! But like, now I'd be confused on a theological level. One man's punishment is shared by a long succession of innocent people. If it was the 'dark' god, then why would he care about Ozpin failing to do the right thing, and if it was the 'light' god, then how is his punishment appropriate?

    I mean, if they're going for 'god is kinda a dick regardless of your transgression' with some Original Sin on the side, Old Testament-style... sure, I could accept that. It'd feel a little weird next to a brother god of 'dark', but still perfectly workable.
     
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    Barnaby said:
    Hmm, maybe! But like, now I'd be confused on a theological level. One man's punishment is shared by a long succession of innocent people. If it was the 'dark' god, then why would he care about Ozpin failing to do the right thing, and if it was the 'light' god, then how is his punishment appropriate?

    I mean, if they're going for 'god is kinda a dick regardless of your transgression' Old Testament-style... sure, I could accept that. It'd feel a little weird next to a brother god of 'dark', but still perfectly workable.
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    RWBY draws a lot from the aesthetics and tropes of fairy tales and mythology in its setting and designs; you might say it bastardizes them, to be less charitable about it. The story of the Two Brothers, of the Four Maidens? Those were both made specifically to sound like an old creation story and fairy tale, respectively.

    And the thing about mythology is: most gods are assholes who tend to sh*t on mortals. Besides, the "light" brother was never stated to be all about freedom or happiness or goodness or anything; the two brothers represent the forces of creation and destruction, not explicitly good and evil. The story is sometimes compared to Zoroastrianism, but it isn't exactly an Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu deal, since there isn't an explicit moral dimension to either of them except that the "dark" brother is explicitly a dick while the "light" brother could go either way for all we know.

    The "light" brother just really liked creating things and the "dark" brother thought the things his brother made were disgusting, so he did his best to destroy them. Their feud is basically two brothers fighting over their taste in toys, frankly.

    Besides, both brothers potentially have a reason to want Salem to be stopped. Humans (and presumably faunus) were created by the two brothers working together at the "light" brothers suggestion, to settle their feud by giving them a creation they could both take pride in (this is why humans are driven to both create and destroy; as with most old creation stories, this is a way of explaining both the world and human nature), so even though he never took away the stuff he made to destroy his brother's work (including the Grimm), the "dark" brother doesn't necessarily want humanity to be wiped out.

    In fact, you might even speculate that Salem has subverted the Grimm somehow; the "dark" brother created Grimm to destroy all of the life his brother brought into being back before humans were even a thing, yet as far back as anyone in Remnant can remember, Grimm only seek out humans to attack. In that case, it makes sense that both brothers would want her dead.
     
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    Barnaby said:
    Hmm, maybe! But like, now I'd be confused on a theological level. One man's punishment is shared by a long succession of innocent people. If it was the 'dark' god, then why would he care about Ozpin failing to do the right thing, and if it was the 'light' god, then how is his punishment appropriate?

    I mean, if they're going for 'god is kinda a dick regardless of your transgression' with some Original Sin on the side, Old Testament-style... sure, I could accept that. It'd feel a little weird next to a brother god of 'dark', but still perfectly workable.
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    Leingod said:
    RWBY draws a lot from the aesthetics and tropes of fairy tales and mythology in its setting and designs; you might say it bastardizes them, to be less charitable about it. The story of the Two Brothers, of the Four Maidens? Those were both made specifically to sound like an old creation story and fairy tale, respectively.

    And the thing about mythology is: most gods are assholes who tend to sh*t on mortals. Besides, the "light" brother was never stated to be all about freedom or happiness or goodness or anything; the two brothers represent the forces of creation and destruction, not explicitly good and evil. The story is sometimes compared to Zoroastrianism, but it isn't exactly an Ahura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu deal, since there isn't an explicit moral dimension to either of them except that the "dark" brother is explicitly a dick while the "light" brother could go either way for all we know.

    The "light" brother just really liked creating things and the "dark" brother thought the things his brother made were disgusting, so he did his best to destroy them. Their feud is basically two brothers fighting over their taste in toys, frankly.

    Besides, both brothers potentially have a reason to want Salem to be stopped. Humans (and presumably faunus) were created by the two brothers working together at the "light" brothers suggestion, to settle their feud by giving them a creation they could both take pride in (this is why humans are driven to both create and destroy; as with most old creation stories, this is a way of explaining both the world and human nature), so even though he never took away the stuff he made to destroy his brother's work (including the Grimm), the "dark" brother doesn't necessarily want humanity to be wiped out.

    In fact, you might even speculate that Salem has subverted the Grimm somehow; the "dark" brother created Grimm to destroy all of the life his brother brought into being back before humans were even a thing, yet as far back as anyone in Remnant can remember, Grimm only seek out humans to attack. In that case, it makes sense that both brothers would want her dead.
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    Personally I don't think the Gods of Light and Darkness had anything to do with it. Those two sound like very primordial gods, the kind that shows up at the very beginning of a mythos to create the world but then either fade away or get replaced by the younger generation of gods, who are the ones that actually care about dicking around with mortals. Then eventually that younger generation of gods also gets supplanted and the age of man begins. And then man makes robots with souls and gets replaced by its creations in turn. :p


    No but seriously though, Qrow's talk about the two gods only specified that those two specific gods were real. It didn't say anything about those being the only gods who are real. For example the light and dark duo don't really explain stuff like where Faunus come from, or Silver Eyed Warriors, or Dust. I think all that stuff might have come from a younger generation of gods that added to the older gods works, and that younger generation are the ones that cursed Ozpin.




    This for example looks like something that could very well be a god or messiah of the Faunus. A animal god handing out blessings to its chosen people could be a very handy explanation for where Faunus come from and why their biology is so blatantly magical.
     
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