so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.
That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.
So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.
In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
Speaking of, I don't think Papa Schnee has actually done anything particularly bad onscreen. He was grumpy about exports being cut off for both financial reasons but also with respect to the political stupidity of it. I'm pretty sure that most real life CEOs would be apoplectic if something like that happened, conflict or not. He then says he's organizing a charity thing to help deescalate things, and asks if Weiss could go sing at it, emphasizing that she's only person who is both "Schnee family" and "helped defend Vale during the fall of Beacon". He pointedly emphasizes this in terms of how this would make people happy and be a good deed, rather than just to help Jacques.
The problem with the latter part is that he never asks Weiss, he just assumes automatically that she'll do it. Which in itself would be fine, but when Weiss straight-up asks him "are you asking me or telling me?" he doesn't have the decency to give a proper answer; instead he tries to manipulate the question so that she looks like a bitch if she refuses. He could have just asked; in fact, he gives the impression he's reasonably sure she'd agree to it. But instead he chose to make it a power a play, a game of dominance. He refuses to ask his own daughter anything when he can try to manipulate her instead.
I always rolled my eyes at all the theories that the Schnees were going to turn out to be working with Cinder and all that, and I stand by that even more now. But just because Jacques isn't mustache-twirling Dick Dastardly "eeeebuuuulll" doesn't mean he's not a massive prick. And it wasn't what he said or did in this episode that proved to us that he's a prick (though it helps when combined with the other thing), it's everything we got to see in this episode. It's what we saw in the portrait. It's what we see of their house. It's what we see in everything about Weiss's body language and what she says in this episode. No, Jacques doesn't outright say at any point "I don't care about your opinion, you do what I say" because he doesn't have to. He's arranged his entire home and his family's entire life around making sure that they know that's how he feels.
I should note that I took his comments very much from a public relations perspective; in the current political climate, hoarding Dust will make Atlas strong, but that desire for strength may in itself be seen as preparations for war, inviting attack. It's not a move you make if you want to defuse tension, is what I think Papa Schnee was trying to get across... Which actually casts him in something of a peacemaker light.
Well yeah. If you're trying to argue to get someone to do something, you usually get further by saying "this is bad foryou, don't do this" rather than "I'll lose money if you do this, so don't." Not to say he doesn't want to prevent a war from breaking out, though; after all, no way will be able to not get dragged into it with how closely the SDC is tied to Atlas's military and government, so that'll be even worse for his bottom line.
And again, one can be an asshole without being a mustache-twirling villain. Jacques gets nothing out of a war and has no reason to want one, so of course he's against it. And even if he thought there might be some profit to be made, he'd probably be at least a little bit hesitant because he's a human being. He just happens to be a human being who's also a dick.
Although according to the Manga which is still canon at this point till RoosterTeeth says otherwise, Jacques was the one who decided upon using the Knight as a test to see if Weiss was worthy to go to Beacon.
I always rolled my eyes at all the theories that the Schnees were going to turn out to be working with Cinder and all that, and I stand by that even more now. But just because Jacques isn't mustache-twirling Dick Dastardly "eeeebuuuulll" doesn't mean he's not a massive prick.
I could see him being manipulated into helping the bad buys without realizing it. Like smuggling dust out of the country as he becomes impatient with the embargoes, only to realize too late his smuggled shipments are being seized by the White Fang.
The man is unbelievably arrogant with only minimal patience for anyone he can paint as incompetent. Ironwood doesn't seem to have totally lost his respect, yet. But that probably won't last the season.
Someone like that can be outplayed if they don't realize they're not in control of the game board.
I should note that I took his comments very much from a public relations perspective; in the current political climate, hoarding Dust will make Atlas strong, but that desire for strength may in itself be seen as preparations for war, inviting attack. It's not a move you make if you want to defuse tension, is what I think Papa Schnee was trying to get across... Which actually casts him in something of a peacemaker light.
Only because, despite the catchy soundbite, war is bad for business. Especially when your business is exporting more dust than your own Kingdom can possibly use.
I know not everyone here is into Exalted, but the vibe I get from the Schnee home situation is very much like that of a Dragonblooded Great House. It's all a very mundane sort of 'We're going to make sure you don't do anything to embarass this family' sort of cold assholery.
I know not everyone here is into Exalted, but the vibe I get from the Schnee home situation is very much like that of a Dragonblooded Great House. It's all a very mundane sort of 'We're going to make sure you don't do anything to embarass this family' sort of cold assholery.
What I love about the Schnee family situation is that there isn't any of this over-the-top, puppy-kicking evil going on. You bring up the Great Houses, but even those have stories like that one Dragon-Blooded whose mother quite literally tortured her to turn her into a super-assassin.
But what the Schnees have going on is a sort of "commonplace evil," for lack of a better term. It hits you so much more because this is something you see happen. Weiss's father is a controlling asshole. Not in the "you must be more EVIL!" way you see in some shows, but in the "you do what I say. I'm not going to say that outright and I'm not going to lay a hand on you, I'm just going to twist things around to force you to do what I want." Weiss's mother is a drunk who frequently argues and yells at her father. Weiss's brother doesn't like Weiss's sister. It's all so normal in a way that it has a much deeper effect on you.
Organizing my thoughts a bit more on the Schnee family parts of the newest episode:
So the first thing we see is Weiss walking through her house, and there's three things that stand out. First is that the house is massive, spotless, and empty. Not just of people, but of evidence that people even live here. There's no clutter anywhere, there's no "personal touches," it's all completely sterile and lifeless and so "artfully arranged" it looks more like a high-class museum than a house. Actually, it's even less lived-in than a museum. It's practically a tomb with how little life there is here, and the lack of any color that isn't cold blues and sterile whites doesn't help.
Second, Weiss's body language. Normally, Weiss moves with confidence, with purpose, even with, dare I say it, attitude. Now though, all that's gone. She's walking slowly, as if trying to delay getting to her destination. She's got her hands clasped together in an anxious, unsure sort of way, and she's looking down at the ground the whole way through. This indicates familiarity with the house - she knows exactly how to get anywhere without having to look up - but also anxiety, and a lack of certainty. This house is familiar to Weiss, but not in a comforting way.
Third is how grand and perfectly symmetrical everything is. Nothing here is meant to make you feel "at home," and nothing here is meant to make you feel at ease. Everything here is to make sure that you don't touch anything - again, like a museum or a tomb rather than a place where a child lives and grows up - and to make sure that you feel as small and vulnerable as possible in the face of all this grandeur. The owner of this house doesn't want to do business with people who feel comfortable, or who are on his level. The owner of this house wants to do business with people who keenly feel like they are beneath him.
Then we get to the heretofore youngest child of the Schnee family, Whitley. Many things strike me as I see this. The first of which is that immediately preceding his appearance we see a room with a piano and a picture of him on the wall. This is important because every other picture we saw before was some bland, nondescript portrait that you could find in any high-class establishment; this is the first one that shows an actual human being. The room it's in is just as artfully sterile and devoid of indications of human life as the rest of the house, though.
Then there's Whitley himself. He and Weiss... don't seem like brother and sister. They talk like casual acquaintances who barely see each other, which speaks volumes since the timeskip between Volume 3 and Volume 4 is 6-8 months. Everything they say indicates this is the first substantive conversation they've had in that entire time. Also, Whitley is very different from Weiss, in that he's apparently completely comfortable in this sterile tomb of a house. He's in his element. And everything he says to Weiss is as inoffensive and scrubbed-clean as possible. When Weiss points out he doesn't like Winter (whom Weiss herself idolizes), he doesn't deny it, but just gives some inoffensive answer. Whitley is... schmoozing, is all I can call it. He's playing a part to make Weiss feel like he's on her side. That's not necessarily sinister, BTW; it could be that's just the closest thing he can do to actually being a supportive little brother, or he could be doing it in a "just in case" sort of way.
Also, what's heartbreaking is Whitley's casual comment that their mother is "already" drinking in the garden. It's morning if we go by the light. But he says it in the most casual tone, and Weiss doesn't even give any sort of response, verbal or otherwise. This is just normal to them, it's just what their mother does. Just as bad is that when Whitley tells her he heard their father and someone else yelling at each other, Weiss's immediate conclusion was that it was their mother.
And then... the portrait. Good God that portrait. It says so much without a single word being said about it. Weiss doesn't even look at it; it's the camera panning over to it just after Whitley leaves. Look at this:
Such a simple portrait, but with so much to unpack. First, Jacques Schnee. He's one of only two people who are happy in this portrait. F*ck him. Moving on.
Weiss's mother (whom I'm going to call "Willow"). All we've heard about her so far is that she drinks often and she has a tumultuous relationship with her husband. You can see that very well in this portrait. It might be hard to make out since this pic is small, but if you see it in the episode, you'll realize: she looks tired. She looks weary, and beaten down, and resigned. She's trapped in a loveless marriage to a complete control freak, and she's keenly aware there's not a damn thing she can do about it. Also, though Weiss resembles Willow a lot, Winter is practically her clone.
Now Winter and Weiss. Honestly? Seeing them like this is almost heartbreaking. We've only seen Winter once, but she came across as cool, confident, and completely self-assured (if a little hot-tempered). You can see exactly why Weiss idolizes her so much. But in this image? She's as anxious as Weiss. Just like Weiss, she looks deeply unhappy, and is clutching at her skirt as if in an attempt to keep a lid on her emotions.
And now... Whitley, again. First off, he's the other one who actually looks happy here. Before I continue, keep in mind that this is just after we meet him for the first time. Also keep in mind the layout and decor of the Schnee Estate; how very deliberate it all is. Everything was chosen for a purpose, and to send a particular message. The layout of this portrait is no coincidence; the same person who dictated (and yes, dictated is probably the perfect term) what the house would look like also dictated the way this family is posed (and again, that is the perfect term for it).
So with that in mind, notice that Whitley is the very center of the portrait, and the others are posed in a way that draws attention to him. In particular, notice that Weiss and Winter aren't so much sitting next to Whitley as they are framing Whitley. The way they're sat is specifically to draw your eye away from them and to their brother. You could literally remove them from the picture entirely, changing nothing else, and nothing about the picture would look out of place in their absence. It wouldn't look like anything was missing from the picture, whereas the other three would clearly be noticeable in their absence.
Once we meet Jacques Schnee, you can very see a resemblance between him and Whitley, and not just in appearance (though they are both very thin people with reedy builds. On Weiss it makes her look slender and graceful, but it makes them look very noodly). There's this air of rehearsed, oily charm to them both (when Jacques isn't losing his temper, that is), the kind you see often in politicians and high-powered businessmen. It's the charm of someone who's trying very hard to pretend he gives a sh*t about you when he very clearly doesn't. There's also a pronounced comfort with these sterile, almost lifeless surroundings that's very much at odds with the way Weiss reacts to the place.
Jacques sees a lot of himself in Whitley, I believe, and Whitley, unlike Winter and Weiss, doesn't seem to have much of a problem with being Daddy's Little Puppet. And to a man like Jacques, his love for his children is directly proportionate to how closely they follow his "plans" for them. He sees them as his legacy, as extensions of himself, not as people in their own right. Winter and Weiss try to buck that, and so their lives are very uncomfortable as he makes sure to make it so until they acquiesce. Meanwhile, Good Little Whitley does whatever he's told and is rewarded with affection and praise.
Anyway, onto the scene in the study. First things first: Ironwood looks f*cking pimp in that uniform, though I'm not really sold on the stubble. Secondly, the room. Like the rest of the house, it's all very deliberate, but there is a certain element of being lived in that the rest of the house, possibly because the books aren't all totally uniform and a few of them are even slumped over a little, looking as though its owner actually takes books down and reads them occasionally rather than just using them as another prop. The in-progress game of chess on the glass table also adds to this a little bit, and the way the two chairs on one side are at angles to make access to the oval table more convenient. It's a little touch of convenience that makes it look like a room that sees actual use, rather than a set-piece at some historical exhibit.
But the room is also very clearly intended to add to the feeling of grandeur and to stroke Jacques's ego. You can most easily see this in the fact that his "desk" is really just a throne in disguise, with the way that part of the floor is elevated just to get that little bit of extra height so that he can look down on you properly while you address him from the bottom of the tiny steps. And note the portrait of himself as a young man just behind it, a reminder that he's been leading this family for years and has accomplished much in that time. Also note that the room is long and narrow, where most would make a study more or less square. This is also deliberate and is meant to work together with the desk. Like I said, it's a throne: your eye is immediately drawn there and you have to approach it like a supplicant addressing a king. Most likely he'll be shuffling some papers in a very important-looking way and put them down testily to look down on you as you approach, to make you feel simultaneously small and that you're wasting the time of a very important man with your minuscule concerns.
For the substance of his argument with James. To start with, Jacques is very angry when the scene begins, yelling, acting outraged, and even slamming his drink on the table. This might seem odd given his control freak tendencies, but remember: Weiss and Winter have both shown that they have short tempers. All of the Schnees we've met so far are good at appearing very cool and in control when things are in control, but all of them have shown themselves to be very passionate when their buttons are pushed. And Jacques "button" is when he's not in control of an argument. And against General James Ironwood, head of the Atlas military and Headmaster of Atlas Academy, he isn't in control. He knows this. Ironwood will not be intimidated by Jacques. The Schnee name and influence doesn't scare him. All the calculated artifice and grandeur of this house is ignored. And in a fight between the two of them, I'm very confident that Ironwood would win handily. That is going to stick in Jacques's craw like nothing else. Note that for all of his yelling, Jacques never tries to directly demand or order anything of Ironwood, nor does he ever directly insult or berate him. He's forced to treat Ironwood as an equal, even a superior, and he doesn't like it.
Also, there's a seeming contradiction in Jacques's argument. At first, he says he's arguing against the embargo for the good of Atlas rather than the good of his company, which Ironwood promptly calls bull on. But when Ironwood mentions that he can and will convince the Council to side with him, Jacques promptly pays the "you've cost me millions" card, which Ironwood pounces on. But in Jacques's mind, there is no difference: what's good for the SDC is probably by definition good for Atlas in his mind. Because his company is an extension of himself, and if there's anything you should be gleaning about Jacques from this mega-post, it's that Jacques defines what is "good" as that which is good for him.
As for Ironwood himself, he's continuing his track record of thinking as a general first and a political figure never. His casual statement that, because he holds two seats on the council he can twist their arms so they agree with his embargo? If I didn't know that Ironwood was on the side of the angels, that would be a chilling admission of virtual dictatorship on his part. Ironwood never thinks about the political implications of what he says and does, and that's going to continue to bite him square in the ass, I think. He's always given me the impression of a career military man who never got around to learning to think of things in a non-military context, which isn't good because he's essentially the leader of an entire country.
I'll also note that Ironwood is very careful about Weiss's feelings. He apologizes immediately when he realizes he's let this gone on so long that she's walked in on him arguing with her dad, and assures her that she's welcome at Atlas once it reopens. His decision to order and enforce a Dust embargo is stupid and he's shooting himself in the foot (despite the impression I might be giving, I'm very much on Jacques's side in this particular argument), but he's still the same Irondaddy. But enough about stuff that's uplifting: let's talk about Weiss talking to her father.
The very first thing that Jacques says to Weiss? "Did you forget your manners while you were away?" An admonishment that you'd give to a small child. Right off the bat, he's telling her exactly what her role in this talk will be: a child being talked to by her parent. And the implication here is that her time at Beacon was a bad idea, that it made her somehow less than if she'd been a good girl and listened to daddy.
Once Ironwood is out of earshot, all respect for the man goes out the window. He never directly says anything against him (Jacques is too circumspect, too much of a business, to do that) but instead he throws aspersions on his competence into the conversation. "It's a wonder [he] wasn't stripped of his rank. I suppose the Council trusts him... for better or worse." I'll also point out that he apparently spares no thought to the tragedy that happened in Atlas and the destruction of Beacon, being quite flippant about it. He only brings it up because of the way it's inconveniencing him, personally. Extreme narcissism/megalomania is a fairly common thing among corporate CEOs (and there's actual research to back this up), and I think Jacques is no exception.
Then Weiss responds by saying that she trusts Ironwood. His reaction? A sigh and an expression that's like "Oh God she's trying to have opinions again better be a Dad now." Because by saying that, Weiss is disagreeing with him (though not in so many words), so he sets out to "correct" that by laying out what Ironwood is doing in the most "can you f*cking believe it" tone of voice he can manage (again though, he's right in my opinion, but that doesn't change the things the way he goes about it say about him). He's discrediting Ironwood and by extension, Weiss's dissenting opinion about his competence. He would probably do this about any opinion Weiss had that he didn't share; belittle it and try to make her feel ridiculous for holding it.
Then he announces the upcoming charity concert he's planning, to in his words "show the people of Remnant that we are on their side. That we are all victims of the Fall of Beacon," which he says in a tone that sounds extremely rehearsed. He says things like this all the damn time and he's got them so practiced he just says them by rote now, i.e. they have no meaning to him.
So Weiss takes the bait by saying it sounds like wonderful news and Jacques springs his trap by saying that it "would make a lot of people happy" if Weiss performed at the event, and explains his reasoning. This is important: he doesn't ask her, but he also doesn't order her. And when Weiss just cuts past the bullsh*t and asks him "are you asking me or telling me?" he doesn't answer the question. He just brings up the "would make a lot of people happy" thing again, phrasing it so that Weiss will be the one who looks unreasonable if she refuses.
It's clear he thinks she'd agree to it anyway, and if he'd just asked her I bet Weiss would have done so gladly. But Jacques wants to be in control, and he wants everything on his terms. He won't ask his own daughter anything, because he thinks she should do whatever he says without question. But he also doesn't want to feel like some petty tyrant (no one wants to feel like they're the bad guy; they all want an out when they do something bad), so instead he plays this little game with her, and turns a simple request to perform at a charity concert into a stupid power play. And when she reluctantly acquiesces and concedes defeat, she doesn't get a thanks, she gets a "Good girl." It's what you'd say to a very small child, or a pet. He's treating her like a child because instead of just agreeing out of hand when he makes demands of her, she "makes" him resort to bullsh*t manipulation.
I'm not going to get into Klein, except to say that in addition to being the only source of warmth we see in this very, very cold house (in more ways than one, I imagine), he reveals that Jacques keeps his study "dreadfully cold." Well, of course he does. Again, he doesn't want you to feel comfortable in his presence or in his house. He wants you to be as uncomfortable and off-guard as possible at all times so that he can more easily browbeat you into doing what he wants.
As you can probably tell by how long I've ranted on this, I absolutely love this part of the episode (the other part's good too, but this is my bread and butter right here). Because the sad thing is that all of this stuff is more or less something you could see in real life. Not the massive personal shrine to Jacques's desire for control over his surroundings and the other fantastic aspects, no, but the general dynamics of it all. A control freak father who refuses to let his children have lives of their own unless they're the lives he wants for them. You see that plenty in real life. A worn-down mother who's turned to drink because for whatever reason she can't just leave this horrible, loveless marriage. That's all too true to life.
This stuff all has so much more impact because this isn't some Dick Dastardly, Snidely Whiplash character stroking his mustache as he kicks puppies and brags about how evil he is. Jacques Schnee doesn't want to hurt people for the sake of it, he would never willingly work for Salem and Cinder, and he probably thinks of himself as being at worst neutral. He's a terrible father and a terrible person in a completely realistic way, who just happens to live in a very fantastical world. That juxtaposition is just fascinating to me.
Strong Family Resemblance (TV Tropes warning). Applies to Summer and Ruby, too. Yang is uncannily similar to Raven as well, except with Taiyang's color palette. Remains to be seen whether the big guy and cat Faunus in the Volume 4 OP are Blake's parents, and whether Blake has any siblings.
Pretty much. It's that very phoned-in, focus-grouped brand of "charm" that society tells you to trust, but any understanding of psychology and/or sociology will tell you is a big flashing warning sign.
What I love about the Schnee family situation is that there isn't any of this over-the-top, puppy-kicking evil going on. You bring up the Great Houses, but even those have stories like that one Dragon-Blooded whose mother quite literally tortured her to turn her into a super-assassin.
But what the Schnees have going on is a sort of "commonplace evil," for lack of a better term. It hits you so much more because this is something you see happen. Weiss's father is a controlling asshole. Not in the "you must be more EVIL!" way you see in some shows, but in the "you do what I say. I'm not going to say that outright and I'm not going to lay a hand on you, I'm just going to twist things around to force you to do what I want." Weiss's mother is a drunk who frequently argues and yells at her father. Weiss's brother doesn't like Weiss's sister. It's all so normal in a way that it has a much deeper effect on you.
Anyone else disappointed that there wasn't a Cake Butler at all? Or the huge staff implied by having four cake butlers?
I mean yeah RWBY Chibi isn't canon, but that was one of the most amusing parts of it to me. Weiss saying she had 4 cake butlers back in Atlas in episode 18 of RWBY Chibi cracked me up.
Anyone else disappointed that there wasn't a Cake Butler at all? Or the huge staff implied by having four cake butlers?
I mean yeah RWBY Chibi isn't canon, but that was one of the most amusing parts of it to me. Weiss saying she had 4 cake butlers back in Atlas in episode 18 of RWBY Chibi cracked me up.
You know looking at the latest episodes and how many siblings some characters have alongside the kind of world Remnant is. Well I can see it making perfect societal sense to have a lot of kids since the issue of the Grimm probably means a lot of people dying on a regular basis so in order to keep the population numbers up it's encouraged to have a lot of kids.
Also on a side note who else things that Weiss's father married into the family name and took control of the company that way, perhaps the married was purely political with the previous head of the Schnee family recognizing that his daughter isn't suited to run the company and married her off to a man he deemed as a fitting heir?
You know looking at the latest episodes and how many siblings some characters have alongside the kind of world Remnant is. Well I can see it making perfect societal sense to have a lot of kids since the issue of the Grimm probably means a lot of people dying on a regular basis so in order to keep the population numbers up it's encouraged to have a lot of kids.
You know that even in developed countries IRL having 2 or 3 kids isn't so unusual it needs to be remarked upon, right? The only outlier here is Jaune and his 7 sisters, which I'm convinced is a result of his parents really wanting a son and trying until they got one. And yes, people do that in real life. My own parents ultimately had 3 kids mostly because their first two were boys.
Either that, or the fanon is true and Jaune grew up on a farm. Farm people tend to have lots of kids so they don't have to hire anyone to get lots of labor.
Klein freaks me out a little but based on Weiss's reaction, he's probably a chill (heh) guy and I'll try and like him. And the coffee he brought her? Instantly reminded me of when she offered Ruby coffee in the first volume ;_; d'awww
Also it's nice they gave Jacques Schnee's name a foreign flavour instead of straight up naming him after Jack Frost because 'Jack' is a bit plain. I wonder how much of Pyrrha's old model still being used was an intentional throwback and how much was the team not wanting to give her a new one since she won't appear again.
