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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • ElMariachi said:
    Is there any explanation of why RWBY crystallize so much hate like that? I mean Jesus, this is the level of vitriol I would expect from Games of Thrones, not a Web Series that managed to be more successful than the average.
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    I think it has to do with the writers being willing to try new things, to go beyond the same tired old tropes and plot twists. To have the egotistic strongman military dictator guy be the villain who fails at everything he tries, to have the psycho ex-boyfriend actually be really bad rather than a troubled but cute sort, to have the girls actually be a team who succeed at things rather than have the men do everything important while the women talk about how awesome they are.

    Or, in short, RWBY got woke and RWDE is determined to make it go broke.
     
    ElMariachi said:
    Is there any explanation of why RWBY crystallize so much hate like that? I mean Jesus, this is the level of vitriol I would expect from Games of Thrones, not a Web Series that managed to be more successful than the average.
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    Honestly, I've seen it often enough with other fandoms as well. The racism, the misogyny and homophobia, the worship of authoritarianism while the actual heroes are demonized... Star Wars fandom in particular has all this come up a lot, but I've seen it in others too. It doesn't help in this day and age that Youtube, one of the best methods of getting your opinion across, has an algorithm where hate and doom gets promoted to viewers more, and that system is often monetized. I've seen more than a few Youtubers start out with mild criticism, only to end up in a downward spiral of hating EVERYTHING about the topic they've attached their actual income to.
     
    I kind of feel a lot of it has to do with people being disappointed that it's not a quartet of cute girls kicking ass. I kind of bounced off rwby after the jaune arc, and the start of season 2, and didn't get back into it till a friend of mine wanted to watch it with me. It has it's ups and downs, and I'd be lying if I didn't wish there were more fights, and that I would've loved to have seen what would've happened it Monty hadn't died. But not getting what you want doesn't justify the vitriolic hatred that CRWBY gets. I'm on this ship till the end, now. Meanwhile, HTDM should've bailed on this show ages ago. Probably after season 3.
     
    Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive - Please take greater care in choosing your words when handling a sensitive topic like this
    It's not that complicated really, nobody gets madder at you than the people who care about you. Because the people who care are already deeply invested in your success and have the strongest reaction to when you disappoint or let them down.

    This is further compounded by the fact that they follow the parasocial style of fan engagement like a lot of other online figures, and it's no surprise that people react extremely strongly.

    Heck, even in this very thread we have people who are emotionally distraught at the thought of a typical negative fan interaction that isn't out of the ordinary for internet figures. While certainly no one deserves vitriol like that, it's a thing that's happened to popular figures since time immemorial. Treating the rich and successful like poor tragic figures is always a weird idea to me.
     
    JayTee said:
    It's not that complicated really, nobody gets madder at you than the people who care about you. Because the people who care are already deeply invested in your success and have the strongest reaction to when you disappoint or let them down.

    This is further compounded by the fact that they follow the parasocial style of fan engagement like a lot of other online figures, and it's no surprise that people react extremely strongly.

    Heck, even in this very thread we have people who are emotionally distraught at the thought of a typical negative fan interaction that isn't out of the ordinary for internet figures. While certainly no one deserves vitriol like that, it's a thing that's happened to popular figures since time immemorial. Treating the rich and successful like poor tragic figures is always a weird idea to me.
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    This comes off a lot like victim blaming, dude. CRWBY having a parasocial relationship, as you said, doesn't justify what happens nor does "letting them down", and while they may be "rich and successful" they're still people, and we can still feel bad that they have to suffer from this kind of abuse.
     
    Sandstar said:
    This comes off a lot like victim blaming, dude. CRWBY having a parasocial relationship, as you said, doesn't justify what happens nor does "letting them down", and while they may be "rich and successful" they're still people, and we can still feel bad that they have to suffer from this kind of abuse.
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    If it came across as victim blaming, then that was not my intent. The general thrust of my post was more to the effect that this is a common, if unfortunate, consequence of success.
     
    Sandstar said:
    This comes off a lot like victim blaming, dude. CRWBY having a parasocial relationship, as you said, doesn't justify what happens nor does "letting them down", and while they may be "rich and successful" they're still people, and we can still feel bad that they have to suffer from this kind of abuse.
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    On top of that, when the abuse includes manchildren threatening to shoot up a business because a show went with plotlines they don't like, which is sadly a threat that's all too valid in this day and age, the haters in question lose any right to respect.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    On top of that, when the abuse includes manchildren threatening to shoot up a business because a show went with plotlines they don't like, which is sadly a threat that's all too valid in this day and age, the haters in question lose any right to respect.
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    Exactly. The only reasonable reaction to a piece of media you don't like is to stop consuming it, and to complain about it on forums. Tweeting vitrolic hatred towards the voice talent, or sending them emails telling them how much the show sucks is just so far beyond the pale.
     
    I find describing RT's writers and VA's ETC as rich pretty inaccurate, they seem to live in the suburbs of Texas, not exactly living it up in penthouse apartments and Hollywood manors.

    Plus RT engaged with fans before the term prarasocial relaitonship was even a thing, it wasn't some high key marketing strategy, its cos they started out as a company that made funny internet videos.

    Plus describing the hatedom, particularly people who threaten to shoot up RT as though they 'care' is pretty messed up to me, if they do think they care then its at best an abusive relationship.
     
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    JayTee said:
    It's not that complicated really, nobody gets madder at you than the people who care about you. Because the people who care are already deeply invested in your success and have the strongest reaction to when you disappoint or let them down.
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    Ah yes - 'that's why I threatened to murder your children, it's because I care about you'. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
     
    I mean, yes? Passionate fans are going to react quite uh, passionately at anything the creators or the show/book/comic/movie/whatever do, in ways that aren't always good. This isn't a new phenomenon or unique to RWBY. Where is this surprise and outrage coming from?
     
    JayTee said:
    I mean, yes? Passionate fans are going to react quite uh, passionately at anything the creators or the show/book/comic/movie/whatever do, in ways that aren't always good.
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    This is highly subjective because what fans think are good and what the creators think is good or was always intended but the fans mis read the signs because of established genre tropes are two different things.
     
    JayTee said:
    I mean, yes? Passionate fans are going to react quite uh, passionately at anything the creators or the show/book/comic/movie/whatever do, in ways that aren't always good. This isn't a new phenomenon or unique to RWBY. Where is this surprise and outrage coming from?
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    Because they aren't passionate fans. They're just hateful shitbags that are acting like assholes to people who have done nothing more than make a show they don't like. We're passionate fans. We're not happy with everything RWBY does. We're not sending hatemail to members of CRWBY because of that.
     
    That's untrue though, passionate fans are some of the worst people any fandom could have. Other creators have been stalked, harassed or even kidnapped by people Who were so wrapped up in their enthusiasm that they went nuts. Hyper fans who have become unstable are what drives the bulk of the hate and vitriol creators get.
     
    ElMariachi said:
    Is there any explanation of why RWBY crystallize so much hate like that? I mean Jesus, this is the level of vitriol I would expect from Games of Thrones, not a Web Series that managed to be more successful than the average.
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    Female Dominated cast with some LGBT members as well, a willingness to directly say "Actually strongman authority figures can and do screw up and screw up hard", along with Adam attracting a sizable fanbase despite being the absolute worst, RWBY unfortunately draws the attention of certain sections of the internet that very much do not like a lot of RWBY is about. Like I'm a big fan of Horizon Zero Dawn, I've seen this kind of thing with that game as well, having a Female main character or characters who are willing to call out authority figures and are general outspoken will make a large chunk of certain people on the internet absolutely loathe your media with a passion. Not saying all of the discourse is from those types of people, just saying the people who send CRWBY hate mail are absolutely those kinds of people.
     
    JayTee said:
    That's untrue though, passionate fans are some of the worst people any fandom could have. Other creators have been stalked, harassed or even kidnapped by people Who were so wrapped up in their enthusiasm that they went nuts. Hyper fans who have become unstable are what drives the bulk of the hate and vitriol creators get.
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    That doesn't mean that everyone who's attacking CRWBY is a passionate fan. But, to go a bit broader, I think it's not just being a passionate fan that causes people to act like that. There's various forms of bigotry (transphobia, homophobia, misogyny, etc) that causes people to act out like this. The kind of person who'd resort to kidnapping a creator has....I think, issues that are outside the scope of this discussion, i think, and that kind of reaction is outside the scope of this discussion.
     
    Sandstar said:
    That doesn't mean that everyone who's attacking CRWBY is a passionate fan. But, to go a bit broader, I think it's not just being a passionate fan that causes people to act like that. There's various forms of bigotry (transphobia, homophobia, misogyny, etc) that causes people to act out like this. The kind of person who'd resort to kidnapping a creator has....I think, issues that are outside the scope of this discussion, i think, and that kind of reaction is outside the scope of this discussion.
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    I will certainly agree with you that there are definitely people who have ugly views towards trans folk and women, but I don't think that they are a majority, rather the other way around. It's very easy for someone who is very passionate and enthusiastic in a positive way about a given work or creator to become lost in that passion and severely overreact in an extremely negative way. People who hate a work or a creator more often than not or simply move on and ignore it, rather than continue to invest the time and emotional energy into work they dislike.
     
    JayTee said:
    I will certainly agree with you that there are definitely people who have ugly views towards trans folk and women, but I don't think that they are a majority, rather the other way around. It's very easy for someone who is very passionate and enthusiastic in a positive way about a given work or creator to become lost in that passion and severely overreact in an extremely negative way. People who hate a work or a creator more often than not or simply move on and ignore it, rather than continue to invest the time and emotional energy into work they dislike.
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    My point is that there has to be something extra in the mix. Simply being disapointed in a media production isn't enough to cause this kind of reaction. Look at all the people who were pissed off by season 8 of GoT. Lots of people hate it, lots of people complain about it on forums, and reddit. Most of them aren't sending GRR Martin hate mail about how he's a terrible writer, blah blah blah. As you said, most people who hate a media product stop consuming it. I'm trying to reach beyond that, and guess at what turns disapointment into anger, and then into abuse.
     
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    Sandstar said:
    My point is that there has to be something extra in the mix. Simply being disapointed in a media production isn't enough to cause this kind of reaction. Look at all the people who were pissed off by season 8 of GoT. Lots of people hate it, lots of people complain about it on forums, and reddit. Most of them aren't sending GRR Martin hate mail about how he's a terrible writer, blah blah blah. As you said, most people who hate a media product stop consuming it. I'm trying to reach beyond that, and guess at what turns disapointment into anger, and then into abuse.
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    I really don't think there is anything beyond that. It's very easy for enthusiasm to turn to vitriol when you get so wrapped up in something that you stop thinking straight.

    In the case of Game of Thrones, most of the vitriol was leveled at the Showrunners rather than GRRM. It was an entire media fiasco That unperson-ed an entire franchise. Same thing with the ending to Mass Effect 3, the series most diehard fans became its most vicious attackers.

    Fans are fickle, prone to turn on you very quickly. Hyper fans even more so and in even more extreme ways.
     
    JayTee said:
    I really don't think there is anything beyond that. It's very easy for enthusiasm to turn to vitriol when you get so wrapped up in something that you stop thinking straight.

    In the case of Game of Thrones, most of the vitriol was leveled at the Showrunners rather than GRRM. It was an entire media fiasco That unperson-ed an entire franchise. Same thing with the ending to Mass Effect 3, the series most diehard fans became its most vicious attackers.

    Fans are fickle, prone to turn on you very quickly. Hyper fans even more so and in even more extreme ways.
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    I think we're talking in circles now, so I'm going to bow out.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    Like I'm a big fan of Horizon Zero Dawn, I've seen this kind of thing with that game as well, having a Female main character or characters who are willing to call out authority figures and are general outspoken will make a large chunk of certain people on the internet absolutely loathe your media with a passion.
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    And in Horizon, Aloy didn't had a strongman authority figure to oppose, I don't want to imagine if we had an Ironwood analogue in the game. (unless there's a character like that in Forbidden West, in which case please don't spoil me)
    The closest I could see is Sylens, but it's made abundantly clear that he's in for himself exclusively.
     
    @JayTee, I think a better word is "entitled" and "obsessive" and not "passionate". There are big differences between being passionate about something, and being obsessive about something or feeling entitled to a certain thing.
     
    I think at least some part of it is a sort of reflective reaction to some people being loudly unwilling to accept that RWBY does have its faults and being unwilling to compromise on that, giving rise to people being loudly unwilling to accept that RWBY has its good qualities and being unwilling to compromise on that in response.
     
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