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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • HamHamJ said:
    How is that different from when they thought Grimm were a natural phenomenon that has existed forever and would exist forever?
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    I guess it probably due to the existence of a new form of hope born with the idea that it could end with Salem death since she leader of the Grimm.
    But instead they are now facing the fact that what was before a force of natural order is no longer natural and is being led by a being that can't be killed and has lived time immemorial.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Namely because they're tired of throwing their lives away for what is practically nothing.
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    This never sat well with me though. The girls didn't sign up to beacon expecting the grim defeated in their lifetime. While I get some disappointment at the possibility of a final victory being snatched away from them, it feels really immature for the to hold that against him. They already signed up for an endless battle. That doesn't mean their struggles are worth nothing. Every day the kingdoms still stand is a victory.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    How is that different from when they thought Grimm were a natural phenomenon that has existed forever and would exist forever?
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    mr_stibbons said:
    This never sat well with me though. The girls didn't sign up to beacon expecting the grim defeated in their lifetime. While I get some disappointment at the possibility of a final victory being snatched away from them, it feels really immature for the to hold that against him. They already signed up for an endless battle. That doesn't mean their struggles are worth nothing. Every day the kingdoms still stand is a victory.
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    Also keep in mind that, for the most part, they never really asked to fight Salem.

    RNJR went to Haven to get answers on Cinder's group, Weiss went to Mistral because she thought Winter was there, and Blake wanted nothing do with the White Fang until Sun pointed out that the mask-wearing extremists from Vale were also in Menagerie too. Yang only went to Mistral to make sure Ruby's safe.

    For the most part, though, they just wanted peace of mind. Especially since they either got jack and shit from their escapade (RNJR found nothing about Cinder and Weiss found that Winter left for Atlas) or took a more proactive route (Blake discovers the plot to destroy Haven and decides to take back the White Fang and Yang getting Raven to "take her to Qrow, damn it!"). Hell, up until Qrow revealed that the Relics existed, RNJR was just as clueless as the rest of the heroes and not knowing that Haven is in danger and they literally had nothing to do until Oscar comes into the picture.

    Then the Battle of Haven happens and crisis averted. As far as they knew, Cinder, the main reason for all their pain, was dead and Adam, the other main reason for their pain, ran with his tail tucked between his legs. In their mind, they succeeded...

    Then Ozpin tells them to pack their shit, they're going to Atlas. And that's when they realized... Their job wasn't done. But, hey, maybe if they just dump the Relic in Ironwood's hands and say how it's his problem now, maybe then they'll be done...

    Then Jinn spills the skeletons out of Ozpin's closet and they realize... They'll never be done.

    This is the equivalent of an overworked employee just about to finish their assignment only to have another one delivered at their feet, and then someone says how their boss is hiding an assignment making machine that procedural generates new assignments. For as much flack as the kids get for being angry, they are just kids.
     
    daedalus725 said:
    My friends have delivered to me a take of a lifetime, they didn't make just discovered it,
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    Umm, even if the show never explicitly said Jac had Weiss fight the Arma Gigas, the context clues (again "Show, Don't Tell") still point to the same exact thing.
    Look at it this way, during the white trailer what are we seeing juxtaposed to Weiss' fight? Her singing on stage for a crowd. So what could that mean? Both stories are a performance, one a performance of music the other of her combat. Next, what is the setting of the fight? A great hall with the Schnee emblem decorating both ends. This means this fight is taking place on Schnee property. And lastly the very start of the fight does not seem to be Weiss being ambushed or even Weiss hunting it, it instead starts with Weiss standing before it while the Armor Gigas is in a kneeling position.
    Now as for the faunus abuse, Blake isn't the only character that brings up the mistreatment so again I find it hard to understand why people can't just trust the show when various sources in universe have said that shit is bad? Do people honestly think we need to see that stuff?


    Psyga315 said:
    Also keep in mind that, for the most part, they never really asked to fight Salem.

    RNJR went to Haven to get answers on Cinder's group, Weiss went to Mistral because she thought Winter was there, and Blake wanted nothing do with the White Fang until Sun pointed out that the mask-wearing extremists from Vale were also in Menagerie too. Yang only went to Mistral to make sure Ruby's safe.

    For the most part, though, they just wanted peace of mind. Especially since they either got jack and shit from their escapade (RNJR found nothing about Cinder and Weiss found that Winter left for Atlas) or took a more proactive route (Blake discovers the plot to destroy Haven and decides to take back the White Fang and Yang getting Raven to "take her to Qrow, damn it!"). Hell, up until Qrow revealed that the Relics existed, RNJR was just as clueless as the rest of the heroes and not knowing that Haven is in danger and they literally had nothing to do until Oscar comes into the picture.

    Then the Battle of Haven happens and crisis averted. As far as they knew, Cinder, the main reason for all their pain, was dead and Adam, the other main reason for their pain, ran with his tail tucked between his legs. In their mind, they succeeded...

    Then Ozpin tells them to pack their shit, they're going to Atlas. And that's when they realized... Their job wasn't done. But, hey, maybe if they just dump the Relic in Ironwood's hands and say how it's his problem now, maybe then they'll be done...

    Then Jinn spills the skeletons out of Ozpin's closet and they realize... They'll never be done.

    This is the equivalent of an overworked employee just about to finish their assignment only to have another one delivered at their feet, and then someone says how their boss is hiding an assignment making machine that procedural generates new assignments. For as much flack as the kids get for being angry, they are just kids.
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    And that is kind of the mark of a hero across media.
    A good person stumbling into a hell of a situation and basically going "this is bad, but damn it I will do what I can to protect people."
    Team RWBY and friends did not ask for this, but now that they know (and after they had a chance to start processing some of it) they agreed to at least try. They have no solid way to stop Salem, but they have always at least tried to put The People first no matter where they were.
    Heck, this is part of why Ruby is a leader and why Oobleck didn't have to ask her at Mt. Glenn why she chose this career.
     
    Pugman said:
    Umm, even if the show never explicitly said Jac had Weiss fight the Arma Gigas, the context clues (again "Show, Don't Tell") still point to the same exact thing.
    Look at it this way, during the white trailer what are we seeing juxtaposed to Weiss' fight? Her singing on stage for a crowd. So what could that mean? Both stories are a performance, one a performance of music the other of her combat. Next, what is the setting of the fight? A great hall with the Schnee emblem decorating both ends. This means this fight is taking place on Schnee property. And lastly the very start of the fight does not seem to be Weiss being ambushed or even Weiss hunting it, it instead starts with Weiss standing before it while the Armor Gigas is in a kneeling position.
    Now as for the faunus abuse, Blake isn't the only character that brings up the mistreatment so again I find it hard to understand why people can't just trust the show when various sources in universe have said that shit is bad? Do people honestly think we need to see that stuff?
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    There is a big difference in kind between the SDC having shitty wages and poor mine safety because capitalism and structural racism, and the SDC literally working faunus slaves to death in their mines which is something I am pretty sure I have seen in some fanfics. There is a general issue with how the lack of concrete details makes it hard to answer questions like how justified the White Fang is.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    This never sat well with me though. The girls didn't sign up to beacon expecting the grim defeated in their lifetime. While I get some disappointment at the possibility of a final victory being snatched away from them, it feels really immature for the to hold that against him. They already signed up for an endless battle. That doesn't mean their struggles are worth nothing. Every day the kingdoms still stand is a victory.
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    Hey are you forgetting Qrow also turned against Ozpin for this, along with Leo, Raven, Ironwood when left unattended ETC?

    The issue is Ozpin presented this as a problem they could solve, implied they would be stopping her permanently and then was revealed to be lying.

    If he always led with "Salem's like the Grimm she won't go away, but we can push her back" then yeah, people who signed up to fight endless hordes of Grimm would probably be fine.

    Its the betrayal that creates the doubt.

    HamHamJ said:
    There is a big difference in kind between the SDC having shitty wages and poor mine safety because capitalism and structural racism, and the SDC literally working faunus slaves to death in their mines which is something I am pretty sure I have seen in some fanfics. There is a general issue with how the lack of concrete details makes it hard to answer questions like how justified the White Fang is.
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    I mean the comics have examples of that if you really want.

    RT could have made it clearer, but given no reliable source ever actually says "No there are no problems, you're lying" I'd argue its the same as Robyn pointing out faults in the system, we are meant to take the major character who we ultimately side with seriously.

    There's never a scene of Blake going "Actually the SDC isn't that bad I guess" but there is a scene of Weiss saying her fathers evil and she wants to remove him from power and fix what he's broken.
     
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    Zam said:
    The issue is Ozpin presented this as a problem they could solve, implied they would be stopping her permanently and then was revealed to be lying.
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    Did he? It doesn't really seem like they had any kind of plan they were working on besides "guard the maidens and the relics, presumably forever".

    Also having just watched ep11 I'll say this plot twist works well enough.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    Did he?
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    He did tell the group in Volume 5 that they have to stop Salem now and the kids, being raised on murdering Grimm and enemies of humanity without a second thought, thought he meant she could be killed just as easily.

    Same goes for the older members, especially Ironwood given his idea of using armies as a solution for every problem.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    Did he? It doesn't really seem like they had any kind of plan they were working on besides "guard the maidens and the relics, presumably forever".

    Also having just watched ep11 I'll say this plot twist works well enough.
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    More or less what was said above, he talked about how he failed to stop Salem before but they would stop her now and everyone who worked for him was convinced Salem could be dealt with permanently, informs their strategies, especially Ironwood. Its why its such a huge blow to find out Ozpin was lying and why it sews so much doubt.
     
    OK hold on. If Oscar could do that this whole time he really should have used it a lot sooner? This seems like an almost literal deus ex machina to fix the fact that you escalated situation far too much and couldn't actually figure out a way to resolve it.
     
    daedalus725 said:
    What is there really a time when that would've been like useful before now
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    Maybe it was just poorly conveyed but it looked like it wiped out every Grimm in both Atlas and Mantle so like... immediately when Ozpin came back? When they were scrambling to evacuate people from Mantel? If it needed to be inside the whale to take it out someone should have said that.

    Heck, how the hell did Ozpin lose to Cinder if he could do that and why didn't he use it at Beacon.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    Heck, how the hell did Ozpin lose to Cinder if he could do that and why didn't he use it at Beacon.
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    The Cane nuke is something he cannot just use Willy Nilly, he actually needed a ton of time to build up the Energy within his cane to get to that point so it's something not to be used unless absolutely necessary, and before you say it, yes the shit going down at Beacon was bad but was not on the same level as Salem is personally leading an army of Grimm bad.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    Maybe it was just poorly conveyed but it looked like it wiped out every Grimm in both Atlas and Mantle so like... immediately when Ozpin came back? When they were scrambling to evacuate people from Mantel? If it needed to be inside the whale to take it out someone should have said that.

    Heck, how the hell did Ozpin lose to Cinder if he could do that and why didn't he use it at Beacon.
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    One of Ozpin's major character flaws is that he is cautious to the point of passivity; there is always another battle to be preparing for, always another plan to make or place to fall back to. Oscar is the one who has the will to actually make risky decisions that might or might not pay off over keeping everything close to his chest and praying.

    What's more, something like that should ideally be used when most strategically optimal or when one is out of options, Oscar found himself in position two, up to that stage position 1 was extremely questionable at the best of times given how spread out the Grimm were, distance, the fact they had to come up with overarching plans, or more, several plans and couldn't remotely account for what would happen if they removed a large chunk of Grimm from the battlefield, assuming its range even works as such. For all they knew, Ironwood would use the spare time to send his soldiers after them in force, or Salem would be far enough away to potentially counter or just dodge it and now the powers been wasted, ETC.
    Tython82 said:
    The Cane nuke is something he cannot just use Willy Nilly, he actually needed a ton of time to build up the Energy within his cane to get to that point so it's something not to be used unless absolutely necessary, and before you say it, yes the shit going down at Beacon was bad but was not on the same level as Salem is personally leading an army of Grimm bad.
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    Plus using it underground could have had disastrous consequences anyway, its actually implied he was considering using it by the way he was waiting in his office and waving it around as if musing on something, but then he changed his mind.
     
    Honestly I don't see oneshotting Kevin changing much, the dragon was a problem, but everything was already in chaos and going to hell. The brief lul and relief would be useful but hordes of Grimm were already on their way and there's no accounting for how Cinder might adjust the game plan. Amity is empty after all she may resort to just dropping it on Beacon out of desperation.
    HamHamJ said:
    Based on what textual evidence? It takes at most 50 seconds.
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    Oscar: Kinetic energy that he spent lifetime after lifetime accumulating in the cane he built.

    Jaune: So that's how you did that? Using all of the stored up power.

    Oscar: Not all, but most. We have to be careful with how we use the rest. He trusted my judgment and it saved us. I want to reciprocate that trust. There's a lot to sort out, but... Oz really wants to help.

    Also to note, Ozpin still didn't want to use the cane despite them being in Salem's grasp and inside her mobile HQ, that's how against using it he is.
     
    Jcogginsa said:
    50 seconds is an incredibly long time in a fight.
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    Depends on how the fight is paced out though.

    Sometimes the fight is slow enough for someone to punch a person while announcing themselves as they run down the hallway or just standing there with mouths agape and the next it gets fast enough that people can't pull out their OP skills or others pull off ten-hit combos.
     
    I'm increasingly convinced this is all Ozma's fault somehow. The brother gods are clearly assholes and its not really clear how Ozma and Salem managed to escalate a philosophical disagreement on how to interact with humanity to apparently killing their entire family.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    its not really clear how Ozma and Salem managed to escalate a philosophical disagreement on how to interact with humanity to apparently killing their entire family.
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    No, it's pretty clear.

    Salem was convinced humanity can't be redeemed and so asked "hey, wanna replace them with our people?" to which Ozma is like "fuck this shit, I'm out" and tried to take the kids. Because this was a betrayal for her, she lashed out.
     
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