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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    I doesn't hold a monopoly, otherwise every other nation would completely collapse the moment Atlas back stabbed everyone and closed its borders to look out for only a third of its kingdom. What's more, given we know the SDC is abusive, shady and gets its workers killed, the fact Ironwood makes no effort to legislate about that and actively partners with them rather than just buying from them is rather indicative of his moral stances I feel.
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    I mean you do know their is a thing called a branch of a company. A place outside its headquarters where it conducts business. Also in World of Remnant on the episode of SDC it was said they
    " completely dominated the market".

    Again you don't seem to realize how far people are willing to go to accommodate and work with despot if they hold most of a major resource that is vital for society to even exist.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    Because nobody ever has falsely claimed to be someone's friend for political reasons. If they're such great allies before S4, why was Winter disinherited for joining the military? If Ironwood and Jaques were so buddy buddy, then surely either Ironwood would reject her application or Jaques would not see it as a threat.

    As for why Ironwood didn't forcibly reform the SDC, it's quite simple-Ironwood does not actually have the dictatorial power his haters claim he has before V8. Prior to that he does follow Atlas law and is constrained by Atlas politics. You can see this in how he doesn't interfere with the V7 elections when both candidates are openly hostile towards him.
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    Jac even brought that up as something that strained but didn't destroy the relationship so I am not sure what your point is here.

    So you're just gonna ignore closing the borders, turning Mantle into a police state, withdrawing any and all military support from foreign allies and straight up telling Jac he's going to become a dictator and so the man should stay on his good side?

    Also I never said use dictatorial powers, the other two councilors clearly aren't that fond of Jac and while we don't know much about Mantle's there's a good chance they also hated his guts. It would have been entirely plausible to actually unite and start drawing up anti monopoly laws, stronger worker rights, ETC, but Ironwood certainly wasn't going to do that cos he never saw Mantle as anything but something to squeeze for resources.
    MonochromeXClown said:
    I mean you do know their is a thing called a branch of a company. A place outside its headquarters where it conducts business. Also in World of Remnant on the episode of SDC it was said they
    " completely dominated the market".

    Again you don't seem to realize how far people are willing to go to accommodate and work with despot if they hold most of a major resource that is vital for society to even exist.
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    Disney also dominates the market, there's still other film studios.

    Again, we see Ironwood can and does exert incredible amounts of authority just by himself, the only thing stopping him from trying to legislate against Jac, was a lack of interest in doing so, because he didn't care if the SDC exploited and killed Faunus, so long as he got Dust and shiny new war machines.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    My theory for why this happened is because they realized midway that, aside from the Hound (who was only there because of Oscar) Salem exclusively attacked Atlas and inadvertently proved Ironwood correct. So, to try and counter this, they put his jump to "he can't be reasoned with so he must die" on fast forward.
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    I thinks it's just because Volume 7 came out as a watered down dictator arc meaning any of the rather necessary doing horrible shit either wasn't as bad as it needed to be or was someone else's fault while his opponents were either people the audience are already set up to hate like Jac or instead of getting enough focus to better make their points got some convoluted plot that people were questioning aka parts for a communications satellite somehow being needed to fix a hole in a wall likely because like a lot of problems with the they tried to do too much.

    So when they realized it probably made Ironwood more sympathetic then they intended they basically turned him into a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain as an over correction.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    As for why Ironwood didn't forcibly reform the SDC, it's quite simple-Ironwood does not actually have the dictatorial power his haters claim he has before V8. Prior to that he does follow Atlas law and is constrained by Atlas politics. You can see this in how he doesn't interfere with the V7 elections when both candidates are openly hostile towards him.
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    It's like this one awful take I found on Tumblr where they blame the Atlas military (and exclusively the Atlas military) for Cinder's situation. Like, what the fuck were they gonna do? Override authority and arrest discount Lady Tremaine? Wasn't the entire point of Volume 7 and 8 being that having the military run the law was a bad thing?

    Some people want to blame Atlas for everything, even the shit they didn't do.
     
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    Jacques and Ironwood were only friends if you watched RWBY after being in a violent car accident and having someone kick you in the head. It's a take that requires such extreme cognitive dissonance that it basically requires you to to be watching to generate as bad a faith argument against Ironwood as possible so you can win a fight on the internet about whether or not Ironwood was tots evil.

    If the two were buddy buddy, Ironwood wouldn't have allowed Winter to join Atlas Academy and wouldn't have offered Weiss the same out. It's that simple. Ironwood clearly despised Jacques and only worked with the SDC out of necessity because Jacques had run all the other competition for Dust out of Atlas. Saying that working with them means Ironwood was down with their actions is like trying to say anyone who uses Amazon is personally OK with Jeff Bezos.
     
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    Zam said:
    Jac even brought that up as something that strained but didn't destroy the relationship so I am not sure what your point is here.

    So you're just gonna ignore closing the borders, turning Mantle into a police state, withdrawing any and all military support from foreign allies and straight up telling Jac he's going to become a dictator and so the man should stay on his good side?

    Also I never said use dictatorial powers, the other two councilors clearly aren't that fond of Jac and while we don't know much about Mantle's there's a good chance they also hated his guts. It would have been entirely plausible to actually unite and start drawing up anti monopoly laws, stronger worker rights, ETC, but Ironwood certainly wasn't going to do that cos he never saw Mantle as anything but something to squeeze for resources.

    Disney also dominates the market, there's still other film studios.

    Again, we see Ironwood can and does exert incredible amounts of authority just by himself, the only thing stopping him from trying to legislate against Jac, was a lack of interest in doing so, because he didn't care if the SDC exploited and killed Faunus, so long as he got Dust and shiny new war machines.
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    In order:

    Jaques is desperate for Ironwood to lift the embargo in that scene. No shit he lays on the flattery about how they've been friends. That doesn't mean you should believe it, especially when the flattery fails utterly.

    Secondly, Ironwood is charge of national defence. Border security and foreign military commitments are under his authority. Labour rights and anti-trust law are not.

    Lastly, the other two councilors side with Jaques the moment he gets elected. Why do you think they're going to help take down his company?
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    Jaques is desperate for Ironwood to lift the embargo in that scene. No shit he lays on the flattery about how they've been friends. That doesn't mean you should believe it, especially when the flattery fails utterly.
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    Given Jacques is a manipultative bastard who in that very volume had a section in World of Remnant dedicated to him being manipulative to people, it's frankly shocking that anyone would take him at face value. If Jacques said the sky was blue I'd double-check it he's that untrustworthy.

    Zam said:
    Again, we see Ironwood can and does exert incredible amounts of authority just by himself, the only thing stopping him from trying to legislate against Jac, was a lack of interest in doing so, because he didn't care if the SDC exploited and killed Faunus, so long as he got Dust and shiny new war machines.
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    You're not even trying to hide how blatantly bad faith you're being now. This is just glorified trolling.
     
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    ArtFartCop said:
    Given Jacques is a manipultative bastard who in that very volume had a section in World of Remnant dedicated to him being manipulative to people, it's frankly shocking that anyone would take him at face value. If Jacques said the sky was blue I'd double-check it he's that untrustworthy.
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    Yet somehow even Robyn sided with him for operation Impeach Ironwood
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    In order:

    Jaques is desperate for Ironwood to lift the embargo in that scene. No shit he lays on the flattery about how they've been friends. That doesn't mean you should believe it, especially when the flattery fails utterly.

    Secondly, Ironwood is charge of national defence. Border security and foreign military commitments are under his authority. Labour rights and anti-trust law are not.

    Lastly, the other two councilors side with Jaques the moment he gets elected. Why do you think they're going to help take down his company?
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    So what you're saying is I should ignore their public alliance that Ironwood was very happy about and the fact Jac referenced him as having been a family friend for years because... Jac was also maybe making a play at sentimentality/ego?

    He is literally part of the ruling council and is responsible for turning Mantle into a police state.

    They sided with Jac because they were against Ironwood, not because they had nay fondness for him personally.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    Despite probably being more responsible for Mantle's state than Ironwood was.
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    Ironwood has literally two seats on the council that sets and passes laws and runs the country, Jac is significantly less important than Ironwood, especially when Robyn's city is a police state, having supplies stolen for secret projects while Grimm run through gaping holes in the wall and they are barely defended, all things Ironwood directly oversees.
     
    Ah, the cycle of someone explaining how Ironwood was never a good guy based on what was shown on the show with others refusing to acknowledge obvious facts. We truly are trapped in this Hell.
     
    newgman said:
    Ah, the cycle of someone explaining how Ironwood was never a good guy based on what was shown on the show with others refusing to acknowledge obvious facts. We truly are trapped in this Hell.
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    Maybe the greatest trick the Devil ever played was Creating an entirely separate ruby series and only showing it to a couple of people
     
    The best way to sum it up is Ironwood was someone who thought he was playing AoE2 diplo, found out he was really playing pvp CK2, and couldn't manage the game or step back and let someone else try.

    And read all the bad How To guides.
     
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    Mahrac said:
    The best way to sum it up is Ironwood was someone who thought he was playing AoE2 diplo, found out he was really playing pvp CK2, and couldn't manage the game or step back and let someone else try.

    And read all the bad How To guides.
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    Alternatively, Ironwood is a good soldier, bit a terrible general. When we see him acting as an individual he's generally pretty good, especially if he needs to go fight something. However, the moment he has any authority or is responsible for strategic planning things start to go sideways and he is almost completely unable to recognize his own shortcomings.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Robyn victim blaming the very guy he's trying to avenge.
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    Then maybe Clover shouldn't have been a fucking idiot who got himself killed. That's not victim blaming, that's the honest truth regarding a cop making poor tactical choices and not making the serial killer who likes random murder the priority target.

    And good on Qrow for recognising/admitting the situation was bigger than his grudge.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    Alternatively, Ironwood is a good soldier, bit a terrible general. When we see him acting as an individual he's generally pretty good, especially if he needs to go fight something. However, the moment he has any authority or is responsible for strategic planning things start to go sideways and he is almost completely unable to recognize his own shortcomings.
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    If you wanna test a man's character, give him power.

    And that's a test Ironwood kept failing over and over again. No questions asked.
     
    My friends have delivered to me a take of a lifetime, they didn't make just discovered it,
    "There is no evidence that Jacques did anything against the faunus or discriminates against them, other than a wholly unreliable account by blake, a member of the white fang terrorist organization which kidnapped board members along with Weiss's friends and extended family, giving her a well justified reason to be distrustful of faunus (Conveniently never mentioned again after volume 1). Also, when it comes to Weiss's scar, that came from the Arma Gigas fight, Jacques never made her fight it in the show, you're confusing it with the japanese manga comic, which is a different telling of the story"
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    Icequeendom got me to get back to watching RWBY and to weigh in on this discussion most of the way through vol 7 for the first time the way this has been structured makes no sense for Ironwood going evil. It has literally done that arc and the conclusion seems to be "Ironwood chooses trust and cooperation". The idea that it's going to do the exact same arc again but with the opposite result next season sounds insane and terrible.

    Also I do not get why people keep completely freaking out about Ozpin not telling them largely irrelevant information. Or Salem being unkillable. Was assassinating her really a solution they were expecting to work? In practice I don't see how it changes anything, the only way to win is still to kill the Grimm faster than they can be created and slowly drive them back. If you get to a position where you could have realistically killed Salem you can just capture her and toss her in some kind of magical or super tech prison.
     
    daedalus725 said:
    My friends have delivered to me a take of a lifetime, they didn't make just discovered it,
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    To be fair that might have to do with the really racist shit only being in the side matieral where in show outside of the Adam brand they never go into that much he never seems to rise above textbook evil CEO aka he's willing to treat both Faunus and Humans as borderline slaves to save a buck.
     
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    I do like the wonderful bit of misdirection in Volume 4, with Ironwood at the party. Because who doesn't like a military man of action standng up against rich, racist assholes? Obviously he is the leader Atlas needs, not those wealthy jerks.

    And yet...what is our Man of Action actually doing? Sealing the borders. Ending shipments of Dust. Retreating from the rest of the world. Stealing from his own people's defenses.

    I mean this is not only Atlas exemplifying its "Us against the world" attitude, but also a perfect example of Ironwood's own failing, acting out of fear and a need to be in charge.

    It's a nice bit of foreshadowing, BUT, because there isn't a damn Greek Chorus plainly stating " This is a bad idea. This is a tragedy in the making.", well...

    Seriously, do you think Netflix or Crunchy roll could install next to the CC switch a GC option?
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    Alternatively, Ironwood is a good soldier, bit a terrible general. When we see him acting as an individual he's generally pretty good, especially if he needs to go fight something. However, the moment he has any authority or is responsible for strategic planning things start to go sideways and he is almost completely unable to recognize his own shortcomings.
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    Nah, this is characteristic of talented generals too. There's a reason even the godforsaken arch-Prussian military theorists say to keep policy in the hands of the state and not the general staff.
     
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