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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Renu said:
    Am I the only one finding the maiden's power pretty underwhelming?
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    Well I'd say just from what we've seen of Amber that they're pretty tough, considering she was able to hold off Cinder, Mercury, and Emerald for as long as she did.

    But even with their added edge of magic, they're still able to lose against an opponent that either is well prepared enough, has superior numbers, or just significantly more powerful than they are. I mean how many times has a Maiden died and their powers passed on to someone else? We don't have an exact number, but clearly it's happened enough times for a decent amount of individuals to take notice of that fact.
     
    Nidhoggr said:
    Well I'd say just from what we've seen of Amber that they're pretty tough, considering she was able to hold off Cinder, Mercury, and Emerald for as long as she did.

    But even with their added edge of magic, they're still able to lose against an opponent that either is well prepared enough, has superior numbers, or just significantly more powerful than they are. I mean how many times has a Maiden died and their powers passed on to someone else? We don't have an exact number, but clearly it's happened enough times for a decent amount of individuals to take notice of that fact.
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    Plus we don't know how long Amber has been a maiden or even how strong she was before becoming a maiden. If I was Cinder i'd specifically target the weakest maiden I could to give me the best chance of victory.

    Also I think that the true strength of the maiden powers comes not from their offensive abilities (which are still impressive) but rather the more utility aspects like creating something.
     
    About Amber losing to Cinder and co, they did stack the deck incredibly in their favor.

    You have Emerald who's semblance makes it very difficult for single opponents to fight her, Mercury who most likely is experienced in fighting people due to the fact that his father that is an assassin and Cinder who undoubtedly did research before hand.

    Even then, despite all these advantages, Amber put up a good fight.
     
    Rikion Invictus said:
    About Amber losing to Cinder and co, they did stack the deck incredibly in their favor.

    You have Emerald who's semblance makes it very difficult for single opponents to fight her, Mercury who most likely is experienced in fighting people due to the fact that his father that is an assassin and Cinder who undoubtedly did research before hand.

    Even then, despite all these advantages, Amber put up a good fight.
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    Agreed and you have to consider how close a thing this was for Cinder's group, if Amber had lasted just a little bit longer or Qrow had been a little bit faster or Amber had run instead of trying to kill Emerald then odds are Cinder's attempt to steal the powers would have failed.
     
    Plus, it's fairly clear Cinder has some kind of nefarious backing. That bug looked like a Grimm to me, and controlling one of those is fairly unprecedented. It's hardly out of the question that Cinder has some hax of her own, above and beyond training and 'normal' talent.
     
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    I just recalled, there was a recording ages back for S3 that showed Yang repeatedly punching Roman in the face, so that's somehting to look forward to!

    So I have kind of a horrible guess in mind for what will happen with Yang next. She's taken before Ozpin, Inonwood ETC and while they accept she "might" have been under an illusion or other effect their efforts in proving that have hit a brick wall, in part due to Cinder covering for this and because of the Grim. They've run out of time and options, people are angry, because people, and Yang puts together pretty quickly that they're planning to "scapegoat" her except, well, she did "technically" do the thing she's being blamed for if unknowingly.

    This is because the public must be appeased before Yang, because the situation must be brought back under control and anger quelled for the good of the majority of one individual (Qrow is not happy.) Of course she's too useful to lock in a cell somewhere and their character testimony of her does mean they'd like to believe it was all a trick so she has a choice, confess to her "crime" and be "imprisoned" but really she'll be shipped off with Ironwood to fight at the front and kept there away from everyone else, possibly even if they discover she's innocent because, hey, then they imprisoned an innocent woman and the authorities were tricked for who knows how long. Yang only agrees after finding out Ruby is defending her and it is wrecking her due to the backlash she's getting. She agrees, confesses and leaves as she feels its best that Ruby lose her than for Ruby to throw away her future and lose her.

    She may call up a crying Ruby on a stolen Scroll and sing Gold to her as well.
     
    So on the subject of Cinder's plan I think I know why she did the whole thing with Yang, it's simply a way to tie up as many hunters as possible with the spike of Grim activity caused by the public outrage.
     
    Sinsystems said:
    So on the subject of Cinder's plan I think I know why she did the whole thing with Yang, it's simply a way to tie up as many hunters as possible with the spike of Grim activity caused by the public outrage.
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    Well that was obvious. They're going to have to work fast though, since I don't see the outrage from this lasting long (I mean come on, it was a single incident of foul play, and most of these people probably don't have any idea who Yang is in the first place) Especially not as the tournament goes on.
     
    Azecreth said:
    Well that was obvious. They're going to have to work fast though, since I don't see the outrage from this lasting long (I mean come on, it was a single incident of foul play, and most of these people probably don't have any idea who Yang is in the first place) Especially not as the tournament goes on.
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    Well if I had to guess the next round is going to be whatever Cinder plans to do with Penny (probably is going to force Penny to try and kill her opponent) followed by her causing the Atlas robots to go berserk.
     
    Zam said:
    their character testimony
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    What character testimony? That Yang destroys private property and assaults numerous people for fun with no seeming provocation? Or that she commits sexual assault for shits and giggles? Ruby catches Yang in the aftermath of doing both.

    If Junior testifies at all, Yang is in trouble. His bar almost certainly has security cameras installed so everything from Yang sexually assaulting him to beating his employees and destroying his bar should be on tape. And it's not like Cinder should miss this either, she had Roman hire Junior's minions and Roman was at the bar when Yang destroyed it.

    At first, I wondered why Cinder would pick Yang (other than the fact that she has a temper) rather than someone else but she's already got ready-made proof that Yang has seemingly unpredictable violent outbursts and it's becoming a pattern. Sure, we, as the audience, know Yang isn't that bad, but everyone else is going to think she's psycho. It's not that hard to make Yang a really dark character.
     
    Redium said:
    What character testimony? That Yang destroys private property and assaults numerous people for fun with no seeming provocation? Or that she commits sexual assault for shits and giggles? Ruby catches Yang in the aftermath of doing both.

    If Junior testifies at all, Yang is in trouble. His bar almost certainly has security cameras installed so everything from Yang sexually assaulting him to beating his employees and destroying his bar should be on tape. And it's not like Cinder should miss this either, she had Roman hire Junior's minions and Roman was at the bar when Yang destroyed it.

    At first, I wondered why Cinder would pick Yang (other than the fact that she has a temper) rather than someone else but she's already got ready-made proof that Yang has seemingly unpredictable violent outbursts and it's becoming a pattern. Sure, we, as the audience, know Yang isn't that bad, but everyone else is going to think she's psycho. It's not that hard to make Yang a really dark character.
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    Given Junior's is a criminal who rents out his mooks to wanted criminals like Roman Torchwick I don't think he can, or would, be willing to testify given the attention that'd bring down on him. And given he is a criminal I'm pretty OK with Yang trashing him and his place, its basically what Batman does on a nightly basis anyway and no one calls him out on it.
     
    Zam said:
    Given Junior's is a criminal who rents out his mooks to wanted criminals like Roman Torchwick I don't think he can, or would, be willing to testify given the attention that'd bring down on him. And given he is a criminal I'm pretty OK with Yang trashing him and his place, its basically what Batman does on a nightly basis anyway and no one calls him out on it.
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    To be fair lots of people call Batman out on being a Vigilante,It's just that Gotham is the worst place on earth so it kind of needs him, despite the illegality.
     
    Also working noting, Roman never got a trial. Sure, he was guilty as hell, but barely a day after the Breach he was being hauled out to international waters so Ironwood could use 'enhanced interrogation techniques' on him, no trial in sight.
     
    anailater said:
    To be fair lots of people call Batman out on being a Vigilante,It's just that Gotham is the worst place on earth so it kind of needs him, despite the illegality.
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    He's basically Hench-Co for the RWBY universe and nobody seems to be stopping him. I'd say it was needed. Misgivings about vigilante justice aside.
     
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    Zam said:
    Given Junior's is a criminal who rents out his mooks to wanted criminals like Roman Torchwick I don't think he can, or would, be willing to testify given the attention that'd bring down on him. And given he is a criminal I'm pretty OK with Yang trashing him and his place, its basically what Batman does on a nightly basis anyway and no one calls him out on it.
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    Given that Junior operates a public bar, he clearly trends more towards the 'Legitimate Businessman' style of criminal who is perfectly happy (on the outside) to cooperate with police investigations (that have nothing to do with him).
     
    Azecreth said:
    Also working noting, Roman never got a trial. Sure, he was guilty as hell, but barely a day after the Breach he was being hauled out to international waters so Ironwood could use 'enhanced interrogation techniques' on him, no trial in sight.
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    Atlas seems to be kind of like a fantasy 'MURICA, so it makes sense that they have fantasy Guantanamo.
     
    anailater said:
    To be fair lots of people call Batman out on being a Vigilante,It's just that Gotham is the worst place on earth so it kind of needs him, despite the illegality.
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    Fair point, though in this context I'm not really speaking "in universe" but out of universe and in regards to fan reactions.
    Azecreth said:
    Also working noting, Roman never got a trial. Sure, he was guilty as hell, but barely a day after the Breach he was being hauled out to international waters so Ironwood could use 'enhanced interrogation techniques' on him, no trial in sight.
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    Wait when did the last part happen?
    Imrix said:
    Given that Junior operates a public bar, he clearly trends more towards the 'Legitimate Businessman' style of criminal who is perfectly happy (on the outside) to cooperate with police investigations (that have nothing to do with him).
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    I'm not sure renting mooks out for robberies to a wanted criminal counts as a minor crime in this case, regardless, would he be willing to go to Yang's trial for Mercury and make her look bad? Sure I wouldn't be surprised if he did, however given he didn't contact the police about her trashing his bar I imagine that him being roughed up, or people trying to rough him up, for info is relatively common, that he doesn't want the police attention or feels he wouldn't win for some other reason.
     
    Zam said:
    Given Junior's is a criminal who rents out his mooks to wanted criminals like Roman Torchwick I don't think he can, or would, be willing to testify given the attention that'd bring down on him. And given he is a criminal I'm pretty OK with Yang trashing him and his place, its basically what Batman does on a nightly basis anyway and no one calls him out on it.
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    He operates a bar publicly. He has to have at least have a minimum level of respectability to avoid the police coming down on him. Think more honest gentleman mafia than gang.

    Plus, given Cinder's personality, I can totally see death threats being involved in convincing him to testify. Given how it took one not!Huntress to overwhelm him, what would he do against Cinder who's at least on the level of Glynda?

    Batman's also a vigilante. IRL, he'd be arrested just as quickly as the criminals, the only difference is that he has the protection of plot and a complete break down of law and order in Gotham city.

    Renu said:
    Wat.
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    It's in the Yellow Trailer. Yang grabbed Junior's junk after he said that he didn't recognize the person she was looking for (presumably her mother but we don't know for certain) and threatened him. It wasn't strictly necessary considering she beat him up for fun less than a minute later so it was completely unnecessary. On a Doylist level, it was supposed to be funny, but on a Watsonian level, Yang grabbed and constricted someone's testicles to threaten him, or, because she didn't like his answer. That's a clear cut case for sexual assault.

    Actually, I think that makes it worse. Yang grabbed someone's genitals, deliberately inflicted pain and then punched them in the face unprovoked to start a massive property destroying brawl. The entire thing was unnecessary considering Yang completely dominated the fight that she started immediately afterwards. What did that add, in universe, that couldn't have been done by beating him after he fails to recognize her long-gone mother? It came across as completely unnecessary. Legally, anything she did after asking Junior about the person she's looking for is criminal, and looked at objectively is not sympathetic to Yang at all. Much less so when she's on trial for brutally maiming someone.

    In universe, it's another example of Yang attacking someone after they gave her what she wanted (victory, for Mercury and information for Junior). Yeah, we as the audience know Yang didn't do it, but in universe?

    Azecreth said:
    Also working noting, Roman never got a trial. Sure, he was guilty as hell, but barely a day after the Breach he was being hauled out to international waters so Ironwood could use 'enhanced interrogation techniques' on him, no trial in sight.
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    That's a bit of a leap. All we see is Roman in military custody some time after the Breach. Given how slow legal proceedings can move, he could very well be awaiting trial and General Ironwood is holding him since he's a terrorist and major flight risk.

    Ironwood being physically torture happy has no basis in canon. He believes in military might to suppress terrorists but he also listens to Ozpin's council, it's only when that doesn't work that he increases military action. The cell that Roman is kept in is tortuously small, but that might be a limitation of being on an airship.
     
    Redium said:
    It's in the Yellow Trailer. Yang grabbed Junior's junk after he said that he didn't recognize the person she was looking for (presumably her mother but we don't know for certain) and threatened him. It wasn't strictly necessary considering she beat him up for fun less than a minute later so it was completely unnecessary. On a Doylist level, it was supposed to be funny, but on a Watsonian level, Yang grabbed and constricted someone's testicles to threaten him, or, because she didn't like his answer. That's a clear cut case for sexual assault.
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    That's not sexual assault. If it is, kicking someon in the balls is too, and, well... according to wikipedia (because damn, I don't want to look for an actual source of knowledge), sexual assault is defined as: "Sexual assault is any involuntary sexual act in which a person is coerced or physically forced to engage against their will, or any non-consensual sexual touching of a person."

    Grabbing someone's balls to inflict physical pain as a threat is not sexual assault. It's just assault. Violence.

    Now, so that my point isn't ignored because I used wikipedia, here's the definition according to the United States department of justice's website:

    "Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape."

    You could say "But she touched his balls, that's fondling", to which I would answer "No. You're strawmaning. You're wrong, and you should feel ashamed not to agree with me".
     
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