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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • MonochromeXClown said:
    If Cinder is redeemed I don't doubt that her life would be living alone as a hermit and chased by numerous "you have killed my ___ prepare to die" type people throughout her life till someone gets lucky.
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    Honestly, that'd be a good fate for her. Yes, she switched sides and all, but she would end up being hounded by the people whose lives she's ruined, effectively calling back to Rhodes telling her that she'll always be running now.

    That or if she keeps her Maiden Powers, basically will keep fighting until she tires.
     
    I feel like RWBY and Co coming back isn't going to do great things for Cinder's sanity. I fully expect her screaming "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?!" at Ruby not to mention it'll probably make Salem wonder what else she's been lying about.
     
    LordDarthYoda said:
    I feel like RWBY and Co coming back isn't going to do great things for Cinder's sanity. I fully expect her screaming "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?!" at Ruby not to mention it'll probably make Salem wonder what else she's been lying about.
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    I have no doubt Salem knows Cinder is lying through her teeth.

    Still, the moment Ruby shows up, what little of Cinder's mind and sanity is going to crack and shattered.
     
    LordDarthYoda said:
    I feel like RWBY and Co coming back isn't going to do great things for Cinder's sanity. I fully expect her screaming "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?!" at Ruby not to mention it'll probably make Salem wonder what else she's been lying about.
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    Depends on if she counts "I thought they died because they fell into the void and disintegrated" as lying.

    Though if Neo ends up attacking Cinder and conveys that they worked together, then we could see Salem going "SUSSY!"
     
    LordDarthYoda said:
    I feel like RWBY and Co coming back isn't going to do great things for Cinder's sanity. I fully expect her screaming "WHY WON'T YOU DIE?!" at Ruby not to mention it'll probably make Salem wonder what else she's been lying about.
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    I call that AND Ruby meeting Rhodes in the other world and casually revealing her past before expressing sympathy
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Adding to that, I don't think RWBY and Co will trust Theodore's words because they've been through three Headmasters who had betrayed their trust in some way. Even with Ozpin returning, they still had to deal with Ironwood's shit, especially since it led to this exact situation.

    "But CFVY and SSSN can vouch for Theodore."

    Like how Winter and Penny vouched for Ironwood?
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    But it would be different.
    Theo isn't enacting martial law and both Theo and the Beacon Brigade have each other's trust and some in the Beacon Brigade are good friends with our heroes.
    And when Theo hears what happened there is almost no chance of Theo being like The General or Lionheart.
     
    Pugman said:
    But it would be different.
    Theo isn't enacting martial law and both Theo and the Beacon Brigade have each other's trust and some in the Beacon Brigade are good friends with our heroes.
    And when Theo hears what happened there is almost no chance of Theo being like The General or Lionheart.
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    So would the conflict in Vacou be supporting a leader who is acting against the wishes of his people?
    Vacou already has revanchist tendency in its population. But to have to take in refugees whos ancestor literally destroyed old Vacou and made it an ecological hell hole it is now.

    It would not be pretty and any goodwill to the refugee would already be extremely thin.
     
    Pugman said:
    But it would be different.
    Theo isn't enacting martial law and both Theo and the Beacon Brigade have each other's trust and some in the Beacon Brigade are good friends with our heroes.
    And when Theo hears what happened there is almost no chance of Theo being like The General or Lionheart.
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    The heroes haven't read the books. Even if Theo seems like a good guy to the heroes, Ironwood seemed like a good guy for months before he snapped. It would be pretty jarring for the heroes to easily put their trust in this headmaster after being let down by all three of the others.

    And as for martial law, Theo basically is a warlord. Shade academy is "the only source of law and order in the kingdom" and the official government is virtually powerless. By definition, that means Theo is enforcing the law with a private militia (his students and huntsmen personally loyal to him). The only difference between him and ironwood is that Theo isn't bothering to come up with a pretense of legallity for what he's doing, and hasn't yet used his unchecked power to commit atrocities. That should give everyone pause when dealing with him.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    Ironwood seemed like a good guy for months before he snapped.
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    I feel like this needs to be emphasized.

    Like, literally they've worked with him for what seems to be months, vouched for him when the Council turned against him and held his two seats in question (even though him losing power would be a good thing given how much of a stranglehold he had over Mantle), and even when he gone off the deep end and proven he wasn't going good anytime soon, they locked him up with the implication that he's being taken to Vacuo alongside Jacques*.

    They could have, at any moment, turned on him and backstabbed him in a more direct way instead of trying to put up with him. But they didn't. Because for the most part, Ironwood was (shock of shocks) on their side and vice versa (barring the whole "gatekeeping the truth from Ironwood" thing) until circumstances led to him and RWBY having a disagreement that turned into division. And unfortunately for them, that sort of weary trust led to them losing Penny and a bunch of other people.

    They tried open trust with Lionheart** and got rewarded with an ambush that nearly killed Weiss. They made an agreement with Ozpin but Ozpin valued that trust like paper once the Lamp was in their possession, good intentions or not. Even with Ozpin saying how he's willing to try again with trusting RWBY, they both make it clear that trust as a whole is a risk. And given how they've been burned three times with trusting a Headmaster, especially the last time they trusted a Headmaster, I doubt they're going to go into things with blind faith in Theo just because CFVY and SSSN vouch for him due to having fun novel-exclusive adventures with him.

    Pugman said:
    And when Theo hears what happened there is almost no chance of Theo being like The General or Lionheart.
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    Kinda like how Ironwood heard what happened to Lionheart and how he outright stated he wouldn't be like him (but ironically being like him anyways?)

    * = The only reason Ironwood was left for dead at the end was because of the whole Cinder situation and obviously Winter wasn't able to return to fetch him when the shortcuts were closed off.
    ** = Ozpin warned that he isn't to be trusted yet they went to his surprise meeting anyways without any precautions save for having their weapons on them, which Qrow implies is something they would have had on them regardless of whether it was actually an ambush or not.
     
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    MonochromeXClown said:
    So would the conflict in Vacou be supporting a leader who is acting against the wishes of his people?
    Vacou already has revanchist tendency in its population. But to have to take in refugees whos ancestor literally destroyed old Vacou and made it an ecological hell hole it is now.

    It would not be pretty and any goodwill to the refugee would already be extremely thin.
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    mr_stibbons said:
    The heroes haven't read the books. Even if Theo seems like a good guy to the heroes, Ironwood seemed like a good guy for months before he snapped. It would be pretty jarring for the heroes to easily put their trust in this headmaster after being let down by all three of the others.

    And as for martial law, Theo basically is a warlord. Shade academy is "the only source of law and order in the kingdom" and the official government is virtually powerless. By definition, that means Theo is enforcing the law with a private militia (his students and huntsmen personally loyal to him). The only difference between him and ironwood is that Theo isn't bothering to come up with a pretense of legallity for what he's doing, and hasn't yet used his unchecked power to commit atrocities. That should give everyone pause when dealing with him.
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    Psyga315 said:
    I feel like this needs to be emphasized.

    Like, literally they've worked with him for what seems to be months, vouched for him when the Council turned against him and held his two seats in question (even though him losing power would be a good thing given how much of a stranglehold he had over Mantle), and even when he gone off the deep end and proven he wasn't going good anytime soon, they locked him up with the implication that he's being taken to Vacuo alongside Jacques*.

    They could have, at any moment, turned on him and backstabbed him in a more direct way instead of trying to put up with him. But they didn't. Because for the most part, Ironwood was (shock of shocks) on their side and vice versa (barring the whole "gatekeeping the truth from Ironwood" thing) until circumstances led to him and RWBY having a disagreement that turned into division. And unfortunately for them, that sort of weary trust led to them losing Penny and a bunch of other people.

    They tried open trust with Lionheart** and got rewarded with an ambush that nearly killed Weiss. They made an agreement with Ozpin but Ozpin valued that trust like paper once the Lamp was in their possession, good intentions or not. Even with Ozpin saying how he's willing to try again with trusting RWBY, they both make it clear that trust as a whole is a risk. And given how they've been burned three times with trusting a Headmaster, especially the last time they trusted a Headmaster, I doubt they're going to go into things with blind faith in Theo just because CFVY and SSSN vouch for him due to having fun novel-exclusive adventures with him.


    Kinda like how Ironwood heard what happened to Lionheart and how he outright stated he wouldn't be like him (but ironically being like him anyways?)

    * = The only reason Ironwood was left for dead at the end was because of the whole Cinder situation and obviously Winter wasn't able to return to fetch him when the shortcuts were closed off.
    ** = Ozpin warned that he isn't to be trusted yet they went to his surprise meeting anyways without any precautions save for having their weapons on them, which Qrow implies is something they would have had on them regardless of whether it was actually an ambush or not.
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    OK yes, our heroes don't know what has happened in Vacuo and yes MIGHT be warry of Theo, but let me ask you 3.
    What was the lesson learned in Volume 8?
    "Trust is a Risk"
    So yes, they have been burned, but they will have to trust Theo. Why? Because they need to work together to stand against Salem and her forces.

    As for Ironwood, Ruby and Co. had good reason to not outright trust Ironwood with the full truth. The nation is on lockdown, all it's forces were pulled back and there is the embargo, and that is before they even get to Atlas. What do they see when they finally arrive? Basically all of the massive airships hovering around the floating city. That was clue 1. Next they slip into Mantle and see on every billboard screen Ironwood (and Winter) and the speech and the method unsettled all of them, including Qrow and Weiss. And lastly the ambush and arrest by the ACEOPS after Ruby and Co. (with Penny) took care of the Grimm that got in.
    Ironwood lost the support of our heroes when he chose 1 city over The People he was meant to protect.
     
    Pugman said:
    OK yes, our heroes don't know what has happened in Vacuo and yes MIGHT be warry of Theo, but let me ask you 3.
    What was the lesson learned in Volume 8?
    "Trust is a Risk"
    So yes, they have been burned, but they will have to trust Theo. Why? Because they need to work together to stand against Salem and her forces.
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    Uh I didn't say anything about not trusting Theo? I said the conflict in Vacuo might be RWBY supporting a leader who is going against the wishes of the people of Vacou. Which is the opposite of second half of Ironwood situation of stopping a leader who is going against the wishes of their people.

    Since their is a decent amount of revanchist tendency in Vacou to begin with. So the refugees of the people who turned their home into ecological hellhole devoid of resources would have not end well for anybody.
     
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    Pugman said:
    OK yes, our heroes don't know what has happened in Vacuo and yes MIGHT be warry of Theo, but let me ask you 3.
    What was the lesson learned in Volume 8?
    "Trust is a Risk"
    So yes, they have been burned, but they will have to trust Theo. Why? Because they need to work together to stand against Salem and her forces.

    As for Ironwood, Ruby and Co. had good reason to not outright trust Ironwood with the full truth. The nation is on lockdown, all it's forces were pulled back and there is the embargo, and that is before they even get to Atlas. What do they see when they finally arrive? Basically all of the massive airships hovering around the floating city. That was clue 1. Next they slip into Mantle and see on every billboard screen Ironwood (and Winter) and the speech and the method unsettled all of them, including Qrow and Weiss. And lastly the ambush and arrest by the ACEOPS after Ruby and Co. (with Penny) took care of the Grimm that got in.
    Ironwood lost the support of our heroes when he chose 1 city over The People he was meant to protect.
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    That's the major problem.

    Trust is a risk. They risked themselves trusting in Ozpin, Ironwood, and Lionheart, and got burned by all three of them in some way.

    Even with the deception they gave Ironwood and even with the red flags they got, they still trusted him to work with him. They trusted him enough to bail him out when he was rightfully called out and almost got impeached. They trusted him enough to carry on with his plan despite it screwing over Mantle. They trusted him enough to eventually tell him the whole truth.

    And it backfired. Hard. With Ozpin, he regained their trust. With Lionheart, they weren't too inconvenienced by his betrayal.

    But Ironwood?

    He made everything go to shit by making things difficult for them. As much as I don't like blaming Ironwood for every single bad thing in RWBY, even for the things he wasn't involved with, a majority of the bad things in the endgame was due to him being a dumbass and still wanting to levitate Atlas even though Salem is still on the landmass. To put simply, Penny and several people from Mantle are dead mostly by his hands, directly or not.

    And the worst part? He only got that far because the group decided to trust him. To work with him. To protect him. To advise him.

    Had they said "no, we don't trust you" from the start instead of pussy footing around and checking to see if he is worthy of their full trust, either he nuts up and actually works with RWBY to meet their demands (which aren't that high), tries to justify his antics like he did in "Worst Case Scenario" (since they seemed to just buy his word and not escalate the issue any further) or we end up having him antagonize RWBY earlier and as a result not have the betrayals happening at the worst possible time.

    So, I honestly don't think they're going to easily trust Theodore just because Coco says he's cool or because he acts nice. The other Headmasters practically laid the groundwork for there not to be an easy trust system in place.

    You know how people say "Oh, RWBY doesn't trust Ironwood because of Lionheart?" Well, I'm basically saying "RWBY shouldn't trust Theo because of Ironwood".
     
    Psyga315 said:
    (barring the whole "gatekeeping the truth from Ironwood" thing)
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    Even that they didn't like but were worried he was already too stressed and potentially unstable given his then current semi(probably a bit more than semi but they were being hopeful)-authoritarian behavior.
    Zam said:
    Musings on Faunus Fairy Tales:

    View: https://dameschnee123.tumblr.com/post/676974560325812225/alright-its-think-about-tiny-details-in-rwby-and
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    Well that was sad.
    Psyga315 said:
    You know how people say "Oh, RWBY doesn't trust Ironwood because of Lionheart?" Well, I'm basically saying "RWBY shouldn't trust Theo because of Ironwood".
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    I'm thinking team RWBY+Jaune would be showing up after some time has passed in Vacuo, where that drama is mostly or at least in a large part handled in the books so they can get to the main plot quicker.

    Though it might be interesting if their friends trust him to do his job at least due to having worked with him over the time they were gone and seen who he is even under stress while the ones who fell are still concerned about that, especially if they do bring Neo with and their friends are experiencing the same thing from the other side with her.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    I'm thinking team RWBY+Jaune would be showing up after some time has passed in Vacuo, where that drama is mostly or at least in a large part handled in the books so they can get to the main plot quicker.
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    That I feel is, sadly, a very likely route, using the Old Beach as an excuse to skip over some of the more interesting bits like the forced relocation or the trust issues just so they can get to the next step of the Scavenger Hunt storyline without any delays.

    That said, it'd be interesting if they end up trusting Theodore but Theodore doesn't trust them given how their trips to Mistral and Atlas led to their demise and worrying that the same might happen to him. I don't think it'd be happening, but it'd be interesting.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    Uh I didn't say anything about not trusting Theo? I said the conflict in Vacuo might be RWBY supporting a leader who is going against the wishes of the people of Vacou. Which is the opposite of second half of Ironwood situation of stopping a leader who is going against the wishes of their people.

    Since their is a decent amount of revanchist tendency in Vacou to begin with. So the refugees of the people who turned their home into ecological hellhole devoid of resources would have not end well for anybody.
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    Ok to address you I point to not 1, but 2 books that cover that issue.
    And given the final events of the second book I think it would be kind redundant to have similar issues with outsides happen AGAIN.
    Especially when those leading the refugees are friends of the Beacon Brigade who have helped the people of Vacuo and even helped rally a defense against The Crown and the Grimm in the same battle.
    So really even if the group is Atlesians I'd bet you Coco and others would make it clear that is group means no harm.

    Psyga315 said:
    That's the major problem.

    Trust is a risk. They risked themselves trusting in Ozpin, Ironwood, and Lionheart, and got burned by all three of them in some way.

    Even with the deception they gave Ironwood and even with the red flags they got, they still trusted him to work with him. They trusted him enough to bail him out when he was rightfully called out and almost got impeached. They trusted him enough to carry on with his plan despite it screwing over Mantle. They trusted him enough to eventually tell him the whole truth.

    And it backfired. Hard. With Ozpin, he regained their trust. With Lionheart, they weren't too inconvenienced by his betrayal.

    But Ironwood?

    He made everything go to shit by making things difficult for them. As much as I don't like blaming Ironwood for every single bad thing in RWBY, even for the things he wasn't involved with, a majority of the bad things in the endgame was due to him being a dumbass and still wanting to levitate Atlas even though Salem is still on the landmass. To put simply, Penny and several people from Mantle are dead mostly by his hands, directly or not.

    And the worst part? He only got that far because the group decided to trust him. To work with him. To protect him. To advise him.

    Had they said "no, we don't trust you" from the start instead of pussy footing around and checking to see if he is worthy of their full trust, either he nuts up and actually works with RWBY to meet their demands (which aren't that high), tries to justify his antics like he did in "Worst Case Scenario" (since they seemed to just buy his word and not escalate the issue any further) or we end up having him antagonize RWBY earlier and as a result not have the betrayals happening at the worst possible time.

    So, I honestly don't think they're going to easily trust Theodore just because Coco says he's cool or because he acts nice. The other Headmasters practically laid the groundwork for there not to be an easy trust system in place.

    You know how people say "Oh, RWBY doesn't trust Ironwood because of Lionheart?" Well, I'm basically saying "RWBY shouldn't trust Theo because of Ironwood".
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    And in doing so you don't seem to understand the lessons the show is putting out.
    How many times have our heroes gotten their butts kicked? How many times have plans not gone as planned? Who have the recently let into their circle?
    You fall, you get up.
    Just because they have been burnt by authority figures before does not mean that they should not trust Theo. They will need to work with him just as he will need to work with them, otherwise it will just be a repeat of Atlas.
     
    Pugman said:
    Ok to address you I point to not 1, but 2 books that cover that issue.
    And given the final events of the second book I think it would be kind redundant to have similar issues with outsides happen AGAIN.
    Especially when those leading the refugees are friends of the Beacon Brigade who have helped the people of Vacuo and even helped rally a defense against The Crown and the Grimm in the same battle.
    So really even if the group is Atlesians I'd bet you Coco and others would make it clear that is group means no harm.
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    I mean if it was a small group than maybe Coco and other would have no issue. But this is the surviving population of both Atlas and Mantle in a region known for its scarce resources. People will get angry if they have ration their own supplies to support the refugees who come from the nation that made Vacuo such an ecological disaster it is today.

    All the goodwill Coco and other made will run out fast the longer the refugee remain in Vacuo with a huge risk of acts of violence being committed towards the refugees by native Vacuoan.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    So, I honestly don't think they're going to easily trust Theodore just because Coco says he's cool or because he acts nice.
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    Then I hope Ruby likes being a powerless hobo in Vacuo because nobody there has any reason to really give a crap what she says otherwise what with Theo being the only really authority there and them probably not liking a foreigner coming in there and trying to be in charge.
     
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    excalibur2008 said:
    Then I hope Ruby likes being a powerless hobo in Vacuo because nobody there has any reason to really give a crap what she says otherwise what with Theo being the only really authority there and them probably not liking a foreigner coming in there and trying to be in charge.
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    We get it. You're still salty she refused to submit to Ironwood and went against his moronic plan
     
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