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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • It do be like that at times. I have been watching clips of Vol 1 as reference for my quest, and haven't watched Vol 7 -- and so when I saw clips of the later volumes, I'm like "damn, that actually looks good". So kudos for that.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Yeah, her racism always struck me as more the excuse she told herself to explain her father's misdeeds. Once she admitted that, the excuse started to lose its grip on her, especially with Blake, Sun and Velvet to show her better.
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    Eh. Even leaving aside her dad's misdeeds she's extremely privileged and even those who aren't outright malevolent can have a hard time seeing how unjust things are (look at how many white people fail to realize the system's stacked against POC and get angry if you point it out). It would be a more casual racism like "Why can't they the racial minority better themselves? Clearly they're just lazy" rather than admitting the system is stacked against the minority's favor. Not the genocidal racism of the nazis but a more patronizing racism.

    Or to bring up a Lucifer example. In Episode 8 of Season 4 Amenadiel becomes friends with a black boy named Caleb Mayfield. Caleb becomes a suspect in the murder of a teacher and THIS happens


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlBBgdjHuB4&t=75s

    Amenadiel encounters the same racist cop (James Reiben) in Season 6, and when he tells Chloe (another police officer) about it she's genuinely shocked since she believes in the system (she says there are safeguards and that surely Reiben would have had sensitivity training). This prompts her to do some digging and she learns that Reiben and dozens of other officers have had complaints against them swept under the rug, and that her faith was badly misplaced.

    Chloe wasn't malevolent or even prejudiced in this case, but the fact that she's a.) a white woman and b.) the daughter of a veteran cop made her believe in the system to the point she was oblivious to actual injustice.

    Weiss I could see being like Chloe is in Season 6 (blindly believing that of course the system is good and just and that any Faunus who gets arrested must be a bad guy....and than getting a cold hard taste of reality.).
     
    I personally think Weiss could have used more development on that score; even people who aren't outright malevolent can be downright clueless about injustice unless they're directly confronted with it. That's just me.
     
    *stops banging head* Here we go again.

    Weiss on at least 3 accounts in the first volume alone is relatively quick to change her tune despite coming off as a prissy bitch on first encounter.

    Moment 1 - When Ruby dashed out to fight the Deathstinger on her own and got pinned by the Nevermore, Weiss was the first to take action and saved Ruby while giving a very tsundere apology and the 2 managed to mostly fall in step with each other to finish initiation.

    Moment 2 - The very next story arc had Weiss being pissy about Ruby being named team leader, but a talk with Port got her to calm down and change her focus into being the "Best Partner".

    Moment 3 - After the blow up with Blake and the cat girl being missing for the following 12 hours Weiss has enough time to think and come to the conclusion that Blake's past with the Fang does not matter because she is not part of the group any more.

    Her being "privileged" in any regard does not mean she needs to have any part in any faunus related story. Her story, and in fact the story of a vast majority of the cast, is about personal traumas, how people handle their traumas, and how to move forward.
    The sins and atrocities that Jac has imparted on Faunus kind is not a cross for Weiss to carry.

    Now....if you'll excuse me.
    *returns to the wall*
     
    We'll have to disagree.

    1.) Even if Weiss's bigotry comes from trying to avoid facing the fact her dad's an asshole it's still bigotry. Having her just stop being racist feels like lazy writing and ignores how actual racists grow out of it (the ones who do change only do so after gaining knowledge and engaging in a LONG period of self reflection.) I'd have preferred it if Weiss spent the back half of Vol 1 and all of Vol 2 slowly getting better as she meets more people and sees various things challenged.

    2.) Let's put it this way. Mining companies in South Africa got rich by brutalizing local tribesmen and having godawful working conditions. The grandchildren of those original CEOs shouldn't be punished or blamed for what their ancestors did; they should still admit that yes they only enjoy the wealth they have because of what their parents and grandparents did, and that maybe they should give back to the communities their ancestors hurt to build their wealth since someone has to address the wrong.)

    Weiss in this situation is the grandchild or child of the people who inflicted greivous crimes on a community. She shouldn't be jailed for it or even blame herself for it. Her dad made the decision to be a prick after all. But the fact remains she only enjoys wealth and status because of her father's crimes. And she's also in the position to give back what he stole.
     
    LordYam said:
    I personally think Weiss could have used more development on that score; even people who aren't outright malevolent can be downright clueless about injustice unless they're directly confronted with it. That's just me.
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    As pointed out before, in a post you didn't respond to, abolitionists always existed and came from many social classes including that of the wealthy. Your idea that a person cannot on their own learn right from wrong is inherently false.
     
    I'd still prefer a more gradual change in character. Vol 1's finale could be the start but I'd like to see Vol 2 as showing her continue to grow out of her prejudice.
     
    LordYam said:
    I'd still prefer a more gradual change in character. Vol 1's finale could be the start but I'd like to see Vol 2 as showing her continue to grow out of her prejudice.
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    The fact that early character developments have to happen over the course of a few minutes is certainly a flaw in early RWBY, but I really don't see where something like that is going to slot into the first three volumes. There's just no where to fit in a whole slew of things that really should have been included in V1 and V2. Even if you cut the Jaundice Arc in half (probably a good idea) there's only so much more you can add (in which case I think you need more Yang stuff - she's the least developed main character in the early show). It's a point of criticism you can certainly level at the show, but its not a thing that would have been easy to remedy.

    As far as Weiss and the faunus go, Weiss's story isn't about the faunus and tying her in only brings more bloat to the middle volumes. Weiss's story is about her relationship to her family and coming to grips with how horrible her father is to everybody, not just the faunus. The story really points this out in V3 in the fight against FNKI when Weiss has to confront someone who has been directly impacted by her father's shitty business practices. By the time of the final confrontation with Adam in V6, Weiss doesn't have anything to gain as a character from being further rubbed in her father's shit. So instead, the focus is on Blake coming to terms with her abuser and Yang overcoming her fears of the man who maimed her. It's also an opportunity to develop the relationship between Blake and Yang and move it forward from the strained reunion from the end of V5/beginning of V6.* Weiss simply didn't have a role to play in all of that.

    *And as much as I love my Bees, you need something along these lines regardless of the romantic aspects of the relationship because you need to shore up their trust in each other as combat partners and compatriots as well. Certain folk like to harp that Weiss and faunus stuff was sacrificed for a particular type of romance, but much of what happened needed to happen, romance or not.
     
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    For me, the problem with Weiss isn't Weiss. It's more that it mostly frames racism against the faunus as coming from people who are bad and/or ignorant, and there not being enough focus on systemic injustice.

    I have a similar problem with marvel movies, in a way. There's this annoying thing they've done where an antagonist like Killmonger says racial oppression needs to be fixed, but because he's violent, he has to be opposed. Falcon and the Winter Soldier has antagonists that say immigrants are getting a raw deal, but because these antagonists are violent, they have to be opposed.

    Ultimately, marvel movies and RWBY give me the impression that they want to say the status quo is shitty while letting their protagonists be morally justified to defend that shitty status quo.

    The racism I wanted to see addressed was that of the moderate, the lukewarm supporter that MLK wrote about from Birmingham jail. The racism I see in RWBY seems to bend over backwards let those "well-meaning moderates" off the hook.
     
    Emma said:
    For me, the problem with Weiss isn't Weiss. It's more that it mostly frames racism against the faunus as coming from people who are bad and/or ignorant, and there not being enough focus on systemic injustice.

    I have a similar problem with marvel movies, in a way. There's this annoying thing they've done where an antagonist like Killmonger says racial oppression needs to be fixed, but because he's violent, he has to be opposed. Falcon and the Winter Soldier has antagonists that say immigrants are getting a raw deal, but because these antagonists are violent, they have to be opposed.

    Ultimately, marvel movies and RWBY give me the impression that they want to say the status quo is shitty while letting their protagonists be morally justified to defend that shitty status quo.

    The racism I wanted to see addressed was that of the moderate, the lukewarm supporter that MLK wrote about from Birmingham jail. The racism I see in RWBY seems to bend over backwards let those "well-meaning moderates" off the hook.
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    This certainly isn't wrong. But I think this is a problem that's mostly divorced from the character Weiss. Outside of V1C15/16, it's completely divorced from Weiss. Honestly, the overall faunus plot is probably RWBY's biggest flaw as a story. They tried, but I honestly don't think the writing team had the experience to say anything substantive regarding racism, especially back in 2013. But IIRC, they've admitted that the faunus racism plot wasn't handled as well as it should have been. From V6 on it's pushed into the background, but honestly, the stuff in the background - particularly in V7 and V8 - is better presented than anything in the preceding five volumes because it does start to show as more of a systemic issue than simply "only bad people are racist."

    EDIT: Also, take a shot for every time I've typed "honestly." I've really got to work on that. :p
     
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    Erinyes said:
    From V6 on it's pushed into the background, but honestly, the stuff in the background - particularly in V7 and V8 - is better presented than anything in the preceding five volumes because it does start to show as more of a systemic issue than simply "only bad people are racist."
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    Maybe in a future volume they can touch on it again with the details in the future with more experience, to correct the issues with what they did so far with it? The show's not over, so deciding that what we have seen so far defines the show's view of a subject is kind of foolish, especially given how things went with Ironwood over time compared to what people thought he was as of volume two or three.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    Maybe in a future volume they can touch on it again with the details in the future with more experience, to correct the issues with what they did so far with it? The show's not over, so deciding that what we have seen so far defines the show's view of a subject is kind of foolish, especially given how things went with Ironwood over time compared to what people thought he was as of volume two or three.
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    Maybe, but they've kinda got their hands full with the actual main plot of the show right now. I have doubts that there will really be any time available to dedicate towards faunus racism as a plot point going forward. Almost certainly not in any real depth.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    Maybe in a future volume they can touch on it again with the details in the future with more experience, to correct the issues with what they did so far with it?
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    Potentially? Problem is where the hell are they gonna fit it? Between resolving most of it in Mistral and doing a suspiciously similar subplot with Mantle, the Faunus issue pretty much rode itself out. The show explored the avenues and it seems more focused on either fleshing out the main group or the plot itself.

    Unless we either undo the peace Faunus got with Mistral, reveal that there are tensions in Vacuo, or have Tyrian carry the racism subplot, it's practically done.
     
    Emma said:
    For me, the problem with Weiss isn't Weiss. It's more that it mostly frames racism against the faunus as coming from people who are bad and/or ignorant, and there not being enough focus on systemic injustice.

    I have a similar problem with marvel movies, in a way. There's this annoying thing they've done where an antagonist like Killmonger says racial oppression needs to be fixed, but because he's violent, he has to be opposed. Falcon and the Winter Soldier has antagonists that say immigrants are getting a raw deal, but because these antagonists are violent, they have to be opposed.

    Ultimately, marvel movies and RWBY give me the impression that they want to say the status quo is shitty while letting their protagonists be morally justified to defend that shitty status quo.

    The racism I wanted to see addressed was that of the moderate, the lukewarm supporter that MLK wrote about from Birmingham jail. The racism I see in RWBY seems to bend over backwards let those "well-meaning moderates" off the hook.
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    I can get the status quo criticism for earlier volumes but it feels a bit strange after volume 8, the arc that begins and ends by showing us a society riddled with sysmetic injustices that ultimately falls because of the conditions created by those systemic injustices and because those who'd risen to the top because of said status quo ended up serving evil in their various attempts to preserve the status quo (Jacques who gives Watts the keys to the Kingdom in his attempt to get elected and Ironwood who neglects Mantle's physical and cyber security and then actively chooses to screw over the poorest and the most minority heavy portions of his Kingdom to preserve the wealthy elites and the high tech Silicon Valley).



    View: https://youtu.be/A38gKXhzlBA?t=108


    The core conflict of the Atlas arc is that ultimately the heroes choose to reject the status quo even if it means becoming enemies of the state, which puts them in stark contrast with Rhodes who attempts to hold exactly that kind of attitude of saying that the status quo is shitty while still defending it and ends up creating Cinder Fall as we know her.

    The same Cinder who twice over proves instrumental in destroying Atlas, but who could have been a hero if people such as Rhodes had been more willing to stand against the unjust systems that were "powerless" to help her but not powerless to punish her.


    Erinyes said:
    Maybe, but they've kinda got their hands full with the actual main plot of the show right now. I have doubts that there will really be any time available to dedicate towards faunus racism as a plot point going forward. Almost certainly not in any real depth.
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    I mean the story has brought the entire population of one of the most racist Kingdom's of Remnant (emphasized a lot in Volume 7 and 8) to the least racist Kingdom as refugees, which has also suffered greatly as a colony of the other Kingdoms and still retains a lot of bitterness from that history. I'm not sure exactly how much focus there will be on Faunus prejudice in the Vacuo arc but it certainly won't be apolitical or pro-status quo.
     
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    Erinyes said:
    This certainly isn't wrong. But I think this is a problem that's mostly divorced from the character Weiss. Honestly, the overall faunus plot is probably RWBY's biggest flaw as a story.
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    Agreed. She was not the problem, just the best way to productively talk about the problem.

    Erinyes said:
    From V6 on it's pushed into the background, but honestly, the stuff in the background - particularly in V7 and V8 - is better presented than anything in the preceding five volumes because it does start to show as more of a systemic issue than simply "only bad people are racist."
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    Mook said:
    because those who'd risen to the top because of said status quo ended up serving evil in their various attempts to preserve the status quo (Jacques who gives Watts the keys to the Kingdom in his attempt to get elected and Ironwood who neglects Mantle's physical and cyber security and then actively chooses to screw over the poorest and the most minority heavy portions of his Kingdom to preserve the wealthy elites and the high tech Silicon Valley).
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    I'll admit that I am the most casual of casual fans- I cringed my way through the first few seasons then dropped it, but I still watch a few eps here and there and can't deny the show still fascinates me.

    But I have to admit that while these things certainly sound like improvements, it also doesn't sound like the problem has been fixed. Like, it's certainly better that there's some acknowledgement that class plays a factor, and that oppression can be so interwoven into the background that it can be easy to miss, but I think I'll wait until they go further. Like, these descriptions don't really sound like they draw attention to the way "decent" people are complicit, or how "less racist" and "more racist" are sort of missing the point.

    But to be fair, I think I'm applying a standard to them that may not be suitable for what they are. I'd want to see something truly radical- something progressive enough that it would piss off a lot of people, where they dared to take a hard stand and really put some skin in the game (and if anyone's saying they've already done that, then assume I mean I want them to go further.) Anything else, to me, would be the same wishy-washy neoliberal pablum.

    I recognize that the show has definitely improved, and that it's probably unfair of me to want it to go out on a limb like that, but that's simply where I'm at.
     
    I will die on a hill that RWBY hasn't had a Faunus Racism plotline. It had a White Fang plotline. Even with my extremist views in this regard, we haven't had a single episode that focuses on Faunus without the White Fang. It is like having a movie about life in the Middle East like a family sitcom then the Taliban comes rolling in. It isn't about the Middle Eastern family, it is about the Middle Eastern family & Akhundzada.
     
    AlertFiend said:
    I will die on a hill that RWBY hasn't had a Faunus Racism plotline. It had a White Fang plotline. Even with my extremist views in this regard, we haven't had a single episode that focuses on Faunus without the White Fang. It is like having a movie about life in the Middle East like a family sitcom then the Taliban comes rolling in. It isn't about the Middle Eastern family, it is about the Middle Eastern family & Akhundzada.
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    There's some validity to that, yeah.
     
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