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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    Gratitude:
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    And on the flip side of connection is the inherit RISK of making connections and trusting others.
    And what do our 3 villains/antagonists from Atlas (at least kind of) share? Unwillingness to risk.

    Ironwood's unwillingness to take the risk of trusting others was a big factor in him shutting everyone else down.
    Watts seemed to just about always have a back up plan or a way to keep himself clear of fault.
    And Jac did not like risking his position of power being at risk due to insubordination (which is why the status of heir was taken from Winter and later taken from Weiss).



    The Baby Brother


    Spider-Cat
     
    Got reminded of an argument that annoyed me so here:

    Their Tragedy is not in their Righteousness but in its Absence

    Characters like Arthas Menethil & James Ironwood are not tragic because they did horrible but necessary things and then fell to evil.
    They are tragic because they did horrible things they thought were necessary but actually weren't and that was how they continued their slide down the slipper slope.

    If Arthas was right to purge an entire city of civilians, if Ironwood was right to abandon Mantle, then not only do you make all the heroic characters who disagree with them idiots who succeed only due to the authors will.

    But you also indulge in a rather sordid and horrid ideology of "Its OK to sacrifice and murder people who can't defend themselves for your own ends" which is terrible in of itself, but also not thematically in line with the specific series in question.

    It also doesn't make narrative sense to have them be right about their first nightmarishly evil decision but then wrong about all the others. Like character wise that's not an arc, its a fucking mess.
     
    Zam said:
    Got reminded of an argument that annoyed me so here:

    Their Tragedy is not in their Righteousness but in its Absence

    Characters like Arthas Menethil & James Ironwood are not tragic because they did horrible but necessary things and then fell to evil.
    They are tragic because they did horrible things they thought were necessary but actually weren't and that was how they continued their slide down the slipper slope.

    If Arthas was right to purge an entire city of civilians, if Ironwood was right to abandon Mantle, then not only do you make all the heroic characters who disagree with them idiots who succeed only due to the authors will.

    But you also indulge in a rather sordid and horrid ideology of "Its OK to sacrifice and murder people who can't defend themselves for your own ends" which is terrible in of itself, but also not thematically in line with the specific series in question.

    It also doesn't make narrative sense to have them be right about their first nightmarishly evil decision but then wrong about all the others. Like character wise that's not an arc, its a fucking mess.
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    I mean, Stratholme very much did turn into an entire city of zombies after Arthas made it partway down the street. What was his alternative there? Maybe a quarantine or something, but, again, entire city. Undead. Five minutes after he went in. Everything that followed, yeah, absolutely not necessary, but there was very much an entire plagued city that needed to be dealt with and everyone else went 'I'm out' instead of putting forth better plans.

    Ironwood had good options he could have taken, had good options shoved in his face repetedly, but Arthas...didn't.
     
    Dermonster said:
    I mean, Stratholme very much did turn into an entire city of zombies after Arthas made it partway down the street. What was his alternative there? Maybe a quarantine or something, but, again, entire city. Undead. Five minutes after he went in. Everything that followed, yeah, absolutely not necessary, but there was very much an entire plagued city that needed to be dealt with and everyone else went 'I'm out' instead of putting forth better plans.

    Ironwood had good options he could have taken, had good options shoved in his face repetedly, but Arthas...didn't.
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    I thought I heard once that Arthas was partly responsible for that plague because he was looking for something to cure/save/stop so he could be a hero or something.


    Let's be thankful we will never have a Lichwood.
     
    Dermonster said:
    I mean, Stratholme very much did turn into an entire city of zombies after Arthas made it partway down the street. What was his alternative there? Maybe a quarantine or something, but, again, entire city. Undead. Five minutes after he went in. Everything that followed, yeah, absolutely not necessary, but there was very much an entire plagued city that needed to be dealt with and everyone else went 'I'm out' instead of putting forth better plans.
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    Arthas' first step towards the darkness definitely would have been all the more tragic if he'd had an alternative that wasn't just 'do nothing while a city suffers a zombie apocalypse'. But as it is, it reads like the writers thought it was actually necessary.

    Warcraft lore, man. Good in places and weird in many more.
     
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    I was told this about that particular part

    "Like, coming from a medical standpoint, the culling of Stratholme was an extreme that needed to be done because horrible zombies but by then, he's willingly taking the steps down a path that he knows isn't the right one.

    I mean, removing the game aside, the implication is that Arthas wanted to cull the people of Stratholme before Mal'ganis to save them from the damnation of the demon/undead - but he doesn't give any credence to the horror that he's committing.

    Stratholme is the start of him justifying the means, and unwilling to listen to anyone else. he's right, he's the only one who knows what's right and his fatal flaw (Pride) kicks in properly.

    By Northrend, he's sacrificing his men and the ships because he's still blinded by "I'm doing the right thing".

    Like, Arthas is a good villain because he embodies the idea that the path to hell is paved with good intentions. He takes each and every step on his own - with no influence beyond the taunting of a demon and a necromancer's last words."
     
    Ah, so the answer isn't what he does but how he does it.

    Still would have been just that bit better with an alternative to turn down but ah well.
     
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    Parabola said:
    Arthas' first step towards the darkness definitely would have been all the more tragic if he'd had an alternative that wasn't just 'do nothing while a city suffers a zombie apocalypse'. But as it is, it reads like the writers thought it was actually necessary.

    Warcraft lore, man. Good in places and weird in many more.
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    The thing about Stratholme is that whether Arthas was right or not doesn't matter. It may have been the most effective way to deal with a situation where everyone in the city was going to die no matter what, but the horror of actually carrying it out drove his fall.

    As the Arthas novel depicts it, he's an emotional wreck during the slaughter. His hammer stops glowing with the power of the Light, and as the Light responds to conviction rather than goodness it means his belief in his own righteousness is wavering. Then Mal'Ganis reveals himself and it says: "Something like joy shot through Arthas. He was vindicated. Mal'Ganis was here, he was behind the plague". The only way to live with what he had done and vindicate his actions was to destroy Mal'Ganis and the Scourge, no matter the cost, and so he took up the cursed blade.
     
    FEEEEEELS!


    Dermonster said:
    I mean, Stratholme very much did turn into an entire city of zombies after Arthas made it partway down the street. What was his alternative there? Maybe a quarantine or something, but, again, entire city. Undead. Five minutes after he went in. Everything that followed, yeah, absolutely not necessary, but there was very much an entire plagued city that needed to be dealt with and everyone else went 'I'm out' instead of putting forth better plans.

    Ironwood had good options he could have taken, had good options shoved in his face repetedly, but Arthas...didn't.
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    One of the novels has someone straight up say the Culling was unnecessary. Given this isn't a Warcraft thread I am ambivilent about outlining alternatives but the smoothest is:

    Lock down the city
    Order everyone into their homes
    Have Jaina call for back up via teleportation
    Station guards through the city to kill any who turn
    Have Uther and a squad of elite counters Mal'ganas's efforts. (Maybe with Jaina if she's back and or can't leave)

    This way Mal'Ganas can't turn people by force cos he's too busy trying not to be smighted by Uther which slows the changes. The people who don't turn are left alone, while the dead sealed inside their homes are of limited threat and can be killed while they clumsily try to get out locked doors & windows.

    The problem is that Arthas is a temperamental princeling who never should have been in charge of something of this scale and who when angered chooses to lash out* despite his training as was established in his first mission where despite years of training, Uther still has to council him on not murdering his enemies to make himself feel better.

    The game had already established Dalaran was willing to do quarantine but was being refused by the king, and the idea grain that's been in the town for little over a day or two could have gotten to everyone is unrealistic, especially when we do see survivors in game that were likely missed by Arthas's purge.

    *(IE not even giving his allies a chance to present alternatives after they disagreed with him and banishing them)
     
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    I'll keep my thoughts quick because this isn't a warcraft thread but:

    1) Grain infected with the Plague of Undeath had just shown up in Stratholme
    2) Arthas sees people taking infected grain into their homes and concludes it's too late.
    3) The culling.

    From my understanding, milled grain can last for three or so months before being baked into bread, and raw grain can last for six. Far from everyone in the city would have had time to eat the infected grain, but Arthas had written off the whole city.

    It's like when James decided to abandon Mantle. There's a surface level logic to it, but it breaks apart as you delve beneath the complexes that led to that decision.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    You know I wonder if their a noticeable disparity in literacy between people who live in the cities like Vale and those who live in small or nomadic settlements?
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    Its possible, though I think it depends wildly on circumstances cos we know Scroll service was still a thing and villages that are struggling a lot would be Grimm lure so chances are most well established settlements are likely operating in a pretty good place. But by the same token not everyone needs to read for a settlement to function either so, yeah I think it'd vary a lot.
     
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