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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Psyga315 said:
    Before, it was understandable facist dictator, the typical "shooting and never asking questions" or "well, I'm going to use my authority to fuck over people". This is literally "MUWAHAHAHA, I HAVE A NUKE THAT I'M GOING TO USE ON THIS TOWN! STOP ME IF YOU CAN, RWBYMAN!"
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    Fascist dictators do treat entire populations of people as utterly disposable and would go out of their way to eliminate them for no reason other than it would be remotely convenient to them. That's a real thing that happens, and Ironwood has always seen Mantle as expendable. That's not a reach or an exaggeration of the character. This is a man that has always resorted to force as his first instinct and does not stop to consider the consequences.

    The most charitable read of Ironwood right now is that he's on 0 hours of sleep, traumatized, and high on morphine, and it'd just further highlight how you can't have a single person have all the power in a society, no matter how well-intentioned.
     
    Parabola said:
    Fascist dictators do treat entire populations of people as utterly disposable and would go out of their way to eliminate them for no reason other than it would be remotely convenient to them. That's a real thing that happens, and Ironwood has always seen Mantle as expendable. That's not a reach or an exaggeration of the character. This is a man that has always resorted to force as his first instinct and does not stop to consider the consequences.

    The most charitable read of Ironwood right now is that he's on 0 hours of sleep, traumatized, and high on morphine, and it'd just further highlight how you can't have a single person have all the power in a society, no matter how well-intentioned.
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    The sad part is that I can, somehow, be able to see other shows, point and go "yeah, that's a dictator/facist" and yet with this, even with some moments where I go "okay, he's a facist/dictator", I just... don't.

    Though, I think, at this point this, is more of a me problem than it is show's problem. I haven't exactly agreed on some recent moments in the show, started to dislike some of the main characters, and, before V7E2, was more than willing to jump on the "fuck Atlas, let it fall" wagon. Not exactly the best mindset to have going into the new seasons RWBY.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The sad part is that I can, somehow, be able to see other shows, point and go "yeah, that's a dictator/facist" and yet with this, even with some moments where I go "okay, he's a facist/dictator", I just... don't.

    Though, I think, at this point this, is more of a me problem than it is show's problem. I haven't exactly agreed on some recent moments in the show, started to dislike some of the main characters, and, before V7E2, was more than willing to jump on the "fuck Atlas, let it fall" wagon. Not exactly the best mindset to have going into the new seasons RWBY.
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    And the developments since V7E2 have made you less inclined to fucking Atlas and letting it fall? Because really, it seems the only reason it should stay up is because there's a large number of people directly beneath it at the moment.
     
    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    And the developments since V7E2 have made you less inclined to fucking Atlas and letting it fall? Because really, it seems the only reason it should stay up is because there's a large number of people directly beneath it at the moment.
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    Yeah, when Ironwood goes "You know that problem you guys were complaining about? yeah, I have some sort of idea to fix that." and he's met with "Hey, remember that thing we called Ozpin out for? Let's do that!"

    Definitely not the best play if they wanted me to hate Ironwood and love RWBY, though, again, the past scenes kinda hard-wired me to not like anything they do, so more of a me problem than a show problem.
     


    I should also note that the show isn't subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations, the avenues that the story decides to go down make sense within the narrative and are completely valid directions for it go. These aren't story beats that are occurring out of nowhere, we always have plenty of setup. Like this episode, the bomb did not go off, but Ironwood said that he could still use it, and my immediate thought was "Is he gonna use it on Mantle? Nah." And then he fucking threatens to use it on Mantle in order to get Penny to open the Vault, which totally makes sense since it gives him the leverage that he so desperately needed over Penny, but I sure as hell didn't put it together beforehand. This shit is so good.
     
    One thing I noticed about Cinder......you can literally pinpoint the moment everything started to go wrong for her. It's when Ruby one shotted her with those silver eyes and left her crippled for months.

    Ever since then its all been going downhill. Even after she recovered she has a permanent scar on her eye, and when they have to attack Haven her desire for revenge against Ruby causes her to make key blunders that not only lead to her defeat but fail to accomplish any objectives. Neo had to help her recover the relic. Her attempt to get Fria's power also fails, and she ends up having to run rather than face Ruby again (and notably she is TERRIFIED of the prospect of the silver eyes).

    Cinder has always wanted power due to the abuse she suffered. Getting the fall maiden's power was supposed to make her invincible. And they DID help her defeat Pyrrha.....but then Ruby came along and put her in the hospital with a single shot of her silver eyes. Ruby may not have intended to but she made Cinder feel as helpless as she was when the Madame was abusing her and painfully reminded her that she was still a mere mortal.

    I put the prediction that the Atlas arc is going to end with Cinder finally loosing for good AND that she'll be stripped of her Maiden powers (likely through the destruction of her Grimm arm). Salem coldly abandons her with the same words the Madame used, leaving Cinder broken and defeated. And I think Ruby will try to help her even after everything she's done.

    Rwby's come a long way. It's always been fun but the early seasons were rough in terms of world building and characterization. I'd be curious to see if RWBY could be remade later down the line with more experience (what we have now is pretty fun but oof the early seasons are tough to watch.)
     
    The one thing I find interesting about Ironwoods latest move is that it's so undisputedly public, and we've been steadily building up to it to come crashing down.

    No one is able to dispute or doubt what Ironwood has done now. Even shooting Slate wasn't that brazen given the limited number of witnesses he could round up.

    But now? Everyone in Atlas and Mantel will have seen that broadcast. Everyone knows.
     
    Marco said:
    The one thing I find interesting about Ironwoods latest move is that it's so undisputedly public, and we've been steadily building up to it to come crashing down.

    No one is able to dispute or doubt what Ironwood has done now. Even shooting Slate wasn't that brazen given the limited number of witnesses he could round up.

    But now? Everyone in Atlas and Mantel will have seen that broadcast. Everyone knows.
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    Now everyone in Atlas has confirmation everything Ruby said in her broadcast was 100% true. And the Grimm problem has been dealt with for the immediate future... We've seen before in RWBY what happens when someone like Ironwood loses the support of his followers. This is going to get messy.
     
    Indeed. At the same time the story quality has gone up. The themes of corruption in Atlas are better handled than the racism angle in Vol 1-3.
     
    Welp, Ironwood has officially lost it. Until now there was always a chance someone (Qrow, Ozpin, Ruby?) salvage him, but he crossed a line and can never go back.

    He won, Atlas is saved, reconciliation between Atlas and Mantle is possible (frankly if he were to offer Mantle a hand and help rebuild I doubt anyone will care much for him practically becoming a dictator). But no, he has to take control, because anything that is out of his control is something he sees as a weakness, as unreliable.

    I can see how some people would dislike how Ironwood's character has been developed. There have been many spots where he could back down, salvage his relationships and allies. If he hadn't decided to abandon mantle, if he would have allowed team RWBYQJNPRO to defend mantle while he concentrates on protecting Atlas, if he hadn't shot his way into leadership, if he'd even attempt a reconcliliation with Qrow, and if after Salem lost he'd take a good night's sleep to think things through... There have been many stopping points in his train ride towards an antagonist, but he never stepped off that train.

    At the end of last volume I was opposed to Qrow's vendetta against Ironwood. But now? I don't really see any other choice.


    Amusingly enough, it was Oscar doing him a favor that caused all of this. If he wouldn't have destroyed the whale Ironwood would have needed to use the bomb, as well as expend a large amount of forces to ensure it all works, which might make him unable to properly chase Penny and Co.

    The fact that Salem was relatively quickly driven back is what actually allowed him to become the antagonist of this volume, and I see no other possible outcome other than him being brought down.


    Also, poor Qrow and Robin getting approximately 12 seconds of screentime per episode this volume.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The sad part is that I can, somehow, be able to see other shows, point and go "yeah, that's a dictator/facist" and yet with this, even with some moments where I go "okay, he's a facist/dictator", I just... don't.

    Though, I think, at this point this, is more of a me problem than it is show's problem. I haven't exactly agreed on some recent moments in the show, started to dislike some of the main characters, and, before V7E2, was more than willing to jump on the "fuck Atlas, let it fall" wagon. Not exactly the best mindset to have going into the new seasons RWBY.
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    hell ya it's a "you" problem. You've have clearly been one of the main anti-rwby voices on this and spacebattlers for the last few years. you've spoken against damn near everything ruby and friends have done or tried to do while at the same time try to prop up any and all others.
    until you can admit that you have been wrong for the last few years and move on then from now till the end of the series you will likely keep having this problem and the rest off us will keep having to step up and tell you why you are wrong.



    Psyga315 said:
    Yeah, when Ironwood goes "You know that problem you guys were complaining about? yeah, I have some sort of idea to fix that." and he's met with "Hey, remember that thing we called Ozpin out for? Let's do that!"

    Definitely not the best play if they wanted me to hate Ironwood and love RWBY, though, again, the past scenes kinda hard-wired me to not like anything they do, so more of a me problem than a show problem.
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    I mean, let's take this vaguepost as an example.
    Yes, Ruby kept a secret from James, but we saw how unsure she (and her friends) was of such a call. And we saw her end up with consequences for it. Has it caused her to be unreasonable? To outright kill people? Did she try to lash out at Yang? NO on all counts.
    Meanwhile Ironwood has reacted to everything with frustrated anger, practically demanding everyone to do what he says no questions asked. When he friends out Ruby lied he puts out an order for her and her friends to be arrested and does not even try to reason with them or try to understand why she lied in the first place. Despite everything he knows about her, her friends, all they have been through, and what they had spent the previous 2 weeks doing for him, one lie about ozpin, one act of disobedience in not arresting Robyn, and everything is out the window. Then it just falls apart faster and faster from there. Oscar tries to talk and reason with him, but just IMPLYING Ironwood is afraid and The General loses it and shoots the kid off a platform. A fellow councilman marches up to him and rightfully demanding answers gets shot in the face the very next day.
    TL;DR the difference here is that RWBY is not willing to sacrifice lives and are willing to come up with crazy plans on the fly, while Ironwood NEEDS to be in control of The Plan and anything in the way of it can be cast aside.
     
    In addition Ozpin and co came off as somewhat inept in vol 2 and 3. While I don't agree with all of Leila Hanns points she was right that cinders triumphs were as much ozpin and co being inept as cinder being skilled
     
    LordYam said:
    In addition Ozpin and co came off as somewhat inept in vol 2 and 3. While I don't agree with all of Leila Hanns points she was right that cinders triumphs were as much ozpin and co being inept as cinder being skilled
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    That.... isn't actually a problem, though?

    'Character makes mistakes' is not a narrative problem.
     
    It came across as less mistakes and more "these people are fucking idiots who couldn't lead a marching band."

    making mistakes ok. Being THAT incompetent and foolish is just irritating.

    Again RWBY isn't bad; the early story is still uneven in terms of quality

    Leila Hann did an in depth analysis of how the dance infiltration was utterly implausible even from a storytelling perspective and how it only worked because the heroes were incompetent
     
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    LordYam said:
    It came across as less mistakes and more "these people are fucking idiots who couldn't lead a marching band."
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    No, I don't agree. They were arrogant. They slipped up. But I don't think they did so to a degree that made them look incompetent, really. They didn't understand the threat they faced because she was good at what she did and had methods they weren't aware of. She needed Watts to do most of the real damage, and the Ozpiracy had no reason to think Watts was working for Salem.

    LordYam said:
    Leila Hann did an in depth analysis of how the dance infiltration was utterly implausible even from a storytelling perspective and how it only worked because the heroes were incompetent
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    People can do as much 'in depth analysis' as they like, it doesn't mean I have to agree with them, especially when that person is, based on earlier mentions in this thread, mired in the hatedom.

    Having watched the episode many times, I still don't have a problem with the dance infiltration.
     
    Gladsome said:
    Having watched the episode many times, I still don't have a problem with the dance infiltration.
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    My main problem is the hilariously bad animation in the roof running :)

    On a more practical note, Cinder's need to be dramatic ended up giving RWBY the opportunity to investigate Mountain Glenn, resulting in the Breach not being as messy as they'd hoped. But without the knowledge Watts was alive, they weren't able to counter the real threat... Which, now that I think about it, is much like what I was noting around Salems plans this volume. They planned in enough advantages that a few problems didn't automatically ruin the scheme.
     
    That's your perogative. I like the series; the writing is erratic and the way certain themes were handled in early volumes was shallow and hamfisted. Later volumes have improved but the early problems are there
     
    I'm wondering if Cinder could have a redemption arc. If rooster teeth could pull it off believably it would be cool even if a lot of fans are pissed
     
    Gladsome said:
    No, I don't agree. They were arrogant. They slipped up. But I don't think they did so to a degree that made them look incompetent, really. They didn't understand the threat they faced because she was good at what she did and had methods they weren't aware of. She needed Watts to do most of the real damage, and the Ozpiracy had no reason to think Watts was working for Salem.
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    Also I've always had the impression that what Salem/Cinder pulled throughout volume 1-3 was a rather large departure from the previous trust and countertrust shadow war that the two immortals had been 'playing' which helped to catch them off guard. Said departure arising from a combination of new technologies (the CCT etc) Salem getting the right minions (Watts to write the virus), timing and so on.
     
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