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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Mook said:
    Absolutely. For example the art style in the official RWBY manga looks so awful that I already had no intention of ever buying it, and that was before I learned that it too just keeps skipping tons of content when it's strength lies in the fact that it could have expanded on the early volumes and show things that the writers couldn't fit into the limited screentime of the show.
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    Why would the manga skip content? That sounds ridiculously counterproductive and without any actual net benefit whatsoever.
     
    Broken Base said:
    Why would the manga skip content? That sounds ridiculously counterproductive and without any actual net benefit whatsoever.
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    And yet that's exactly what it's doing, basically ripping out anything that isn't directly centered on Team RWBY themselves and even then failing to actually expand on what was already in the show in a meaningful way once it got past roughly the halfway point of Volume 1, in addition to a slow decline in artistic polish and detail (in what wasn't exactly a super-detailed art style to begin with).

    And I mean, say whatever you want about how bad the Jaune episodes were or that Ren and Nora shouldn't be main characters or whatever, but I think we can all agree that if a manga adaptation is going to basically rip Team JNPR out almost completely (and other characters; Emerald and Mercury are basically robbed of their establishing introduction as just one example), it should at least have something to replace all that with.

    There are good things to say about it (it does a good job - especially early on - of helping establish and expand on Team RWBY themselves), but they're getting steadily outweighed by the rest of the stuff I just mentioned.
     
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    Leingod said:
    And yet that's exactly what it's doing, basically ripping out anything that isn't directly centered on Team RWBY themselves and even then failing to actually expand on what was already in the show in a meaningful way once it got past roughly the halfway point of Volume 1, in addition to a slow decline in artistic polish and detail (in what wasn't exactly a super-detailed art style to begin with).
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    Oh, I wasn't doubting you guys. I'm just kinda flabbergasted; like the point of the manga would be that it's a retelling of the story, yeah? So like, what is even the point if you're going to crib large portions of the story out. It's not like you need to save space! It's a manga!

    But yeah, like, JNPR has its issues in my opinion (largely outside Juane their lack of overall development early on, and I don't like a lot of the early development that Juane got), but giving them even less development and basically slicing them out of the story is hardly an answer. In fact, it's the creation of a new problem!
     
    Eh, I am rather fond of the manga (as opposed to RWBY itself) and I have no issue with them cutting out an arc that focuses on what's supposed to be a side-character, especially since the characterization of the original four protagonists in the manga seems far stronger to me.
     
    Suzu said:
    Eh, I am rather fond of the manga (as opposed to RWBY itself) and I have no issue with them cutting out an arc that focuses on what's supposed to be a side-character, especially since the characterization of the original four protagonists in the manga seems far stronger to me.
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    Yeah, that stuff was good, but more and more we aren't even getting as much of that, IMO. Ever since the end of the initiation arc, it's been getting more like the artist is just rushing to get the whole adaptation out the door ASAP. And in the absence of that good stuff that propped up the other issues before, we've just got abridged versions of the episodes we already have, in manga form, and with much shittier fight scenes overall (seriously, Sun vs Roman is like two frames where you can barely even tell what's happening).

    EDIT: The manga really had me all the way up through initiation, but past that point it just felt like a gradual decline in the good qualities that made the bad ones more apparent, so eventually I just lost interest, because if I want to see most of what's happening in the manga right now I can just rewatch the show, which has most of the same story and characters by this point, but with actual backgrounds and fire effects that don't look like lazy blobs.
     
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    Leingod said:
    Yeah, that stuff was good, but more and more we aren't even getting as much of that, IMO. Ever since the end of the initiation arc, it's been getting more like the artist is just rushing to get the whole adaptation out the door ASAP. And in the absence of that good stuff that propped up the other issues before, we've just got abridged versions of the episodes we already have, in manga form, and with much shittier fight scenes overall (seriously, Sun vs Roman is like two frames where you can barely even tell what's happening).
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    I didn't get that feeling, but I barely remember Volume 1 in the first place.
     
    Leingod said:
    Which was of course why he decided not to properly explain the way the options he presented to Ozma would actually work (choosing to be uselessly vague both about how his reincarnation would work and what had happened to Salem), thus denying him the Knowledge necessary to make an informed Choice.
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    I already admitted he wasn't perfect. Yang isn't perfect either (and keeps the secret of Raven being the Spring Maiden from her family and allies); does that make her a jerk on the level of the Dark God who wiped out humanity? No, it doesn't.

    Maybe the Light God did indeed keep some details secret for fear that Ozma would say "No". If so, I assume it was because Ozma was the Light God's only option. A hero he could count on to put other people's interests before his own, and who actually had someone he cared about to go back and help. Even heroic Ozma refused to go back and help the new humanity until he was told that Salem was still on Remnant.

    I doubt there were any other trustworthy heroes that gave a shit about Salem.
     
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    Staff Notice - Don't format posts to be bait
    Broken Base said:
    Oh, I wasn't doubting you guys. I'm just kinda flabbergasted; like the point of the manga would be that it's a retelling of the story, yeah? So like, what is even the point if you're going to crib large portions of the story out. It's not like you need to save space! It's a manga!

    But yeah, like, JNPR has its issues in my opinion (largely outside Juane their lack of overall development early on, and I don't like a lot of the early development that Juane got), but giving them even less development and basically slicing them out of the story is hardly an answer. In fact, it's the creation of a new problem!
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    From what I've pretty consistently heard (and seen scans to back up), the manga takes RWBY and actually tries to tell a coherent story in which characters have consistent personalities and talk and interact like real-ish people, and where necessary information is related at a natural and helpful pace.

    Not everyone is a fan of that.
     
    Leila Hann said:
    From what I've pretty consistently heard (and seen scans to back up), the manga takes RWBY and actually tries to tell a coherent story in which characters have consistent personalities and talk and interact like real-ish people, and where necessary information is related at a natural and helpful pace.

    Not everyone is a fan of that.
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    A rushed story, not a consistent one. Cut out JNPR, fine, but put something in to replace it that expands the main cast while doing so. The manga doesn't do that and instead rushes through the rest of the first three volumes.

    THAT is the problem people have.
     
    DragoNT said:
    Adorafying
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    I like this word.

    I've heard someone suggest that the person assigned to do the RWBY manga doesn't actually like the job, or is trying to finish it as quickly as possible to move onto something else, and that's why they've begun to cut content and race over storybeats the anime already covered.

    I like their early work, but I wanted more out of later chapters and we're not getting it.
     
    Leila Hann said:
    No idea. Personally, every single thing I've seen and heard about the manga suggests a vast improvement over the source material. I might give it a read if I get a good opportunity.
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    Yeah, the big problem overall is that it's an abridging of the Beacon saga where we already have many spin-offs and adaptations that either rely on the Beacon Saga for inspiration or outright use it as a backdrop. Ironic for a show about "keep moving forward".

    Not helped by the fact that they cut out a lot of JNPR. Not just in the manga, but also in the TV cut of the dub. I get the need to excise the Jaune Arc, since Jaune's "I never got into Beacon" thing never amounted into anything outside of possibly making him a worse character for some, but it seems to be an unhealthy obsession for the Japanese versions to essentially cut them out of the picture.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Yeah, the big problem overall is that it's an abridging of the Beacon saga where we already have many spin-offs and adaptations that either rely on the Beacon Saga for inspiration or outright use it as a backdrop. Ironic for a show about "keep moving forward".

    Not helped by the fact that they cut out a lot of JNPR. Not just in the manga, but also in the TV cut of the dub. I get the need to excise the Jaune Arc, since Jaune's "I never got into Beacon" thing never amounted into anything outside of possibly making him a worse character for some, but it seems to be an unhealthy obsession for the Japanese versions to essentially cut them out of the picture.
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    Exactly. If things need to be cut, and I admit the Jaunedice arc didn't need to be how it was, then something needs to replace it to actually expand the characters as characters. How do the girl's handle study sessions, what conflicts come up in the dorm, what are their grades like, what kind of fights in training do they have, how did they come up with the combo attacks.

    I would have liked all of these questions to be answered, and that was what the manga promised, but instead we are just about finished with Volume 3 and I don't feel like I've learned anything new about the girls. In fact I feel their characters have been slower to progress despite the intense pace, because they don't seem to change. There are moments of sudden change, but nothing gradual. Why couldn't we get Weiss slipping up with her racism? Or Yang's temper actually causing problems for her but she doesn't fully learn the lesson so Adam disarming her helps Taiyang get the point across better.

    I'm not looking forward to how they handle Salem in the manga because of how rushed and cut everything is.
     
    I like the tight focus the manga keeps on the main characters and cuts out elements of the original story I consider highly unnecessary to the overall experience. By the end of the day, JNPR are supposed the side-characters, or they should be, unless the entire series was about an ensemble cast, in which case, it was telegraphed poorly.

    All in all, for me, the manga also has better story-telling and pacing compared to the original, coupled with the fact that I (I understand this might be subjective) find looking at static images more pleasurable than animation (because I found it to be subpar in non-fight scenes).

    (The manga also actually made me care about RWBY in general, so there's that)
     
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    I mean, the problem is that the manga just kinda... falls apart in the latter half?

    The first half is by all means an objective improvement over the the first half of V1, but the second half is basically the same as the latter half of V1.
     
    Violation of Rule 4 - Sniping
    Leila Hann said:
    From what I've pretty consistently heard (and seen scans to back up), the manga takes RWBY and actually tries to tell a coherent story in which characters have consistent personalities and talk and interact like real-ish people, and where necessary information is related at a natural and helpful pace.

    Not everyone is a fan of that.
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    "RWBY fans just don't like anything that isn't shit!"

    Cute.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Yeah, the big problem overall is that it's an abridging of the Beacon saga where we already have many spin-offs and adaptations that either rely on the Beacon Saga for inspiration or outright use it as a backdrop. Ironic for a show about "keep moving forward".

    Not helped by the fact that they cut out a lot of JNPR. Not just in the manga, but also in the TV cut of the dub. I get the need to excise the Jaune Arc, since Jaune's "I never got into Beacon" thing never amounted into anything outside of possibly making him a worse character for some, but it seems to be an unhealthy obsession for the Japanese versions to essentially cut them out of the picture.
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    I'm not hearing anything bad, here.
     
    But what's wrong with cutting that stuff though? What problems does it create? JNPR are meaningless to what little narrative volumes one and two have. Cutting their presence can only improve the story by making it more focused.

    And yeah, making Ruby a real character with desires and agency helps a lot too.
     
    Delphisage said:
    >implying there are flaws in getting rid of the worst character
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    I'm playing devil's advocate here, but Jaune is basically the ultimate foil to Ruby. While both of them hit the same conclusions at almost the exact time (i.e. figuring out that Pyrrha was set up and later having the same thoughts about Pyrrha fighting Cinder, right down to similar word choices), they have very polar opposite views on certain situations, such as when they need to split up their team in Volume 4. Ruby believes things will work out okay while Jaune is more pessimistic about it. Ruby blames Salem for what happened to Pyrrha, but Jaune blames Cinder to the point where he caused the battle of Haven. There's also their views on Ozpin. Ruby's response is to question Ozpin, but still regard him as the mentor. However, Jaune instantly goes for the jugular and not only accuses him of forcing the Maidens on Pyrrha but also calls him a liar and assaulting Oscar.

    And it goes right down to how they got into Beacon. Both of them went in through non-normal means, but whereas Ruby got in by doing what she loves, Jaune got in through manipulation. Essentially we're looking at Jaune potentially being a nicer version of Sasuke or Bakugou to Ruby's Naruto or Deku. To remove Jaune's involvement is to remove the depth that makes Ruby... Ruby.

    The problem is that the Jaune Arc is so unneeded that its removal didn't even remove anything in the grand scheme of things. Outside of Cardin blackmailing Jaune, when does the "I faked my transcripts" thing come into play?
     
    "Jaune could work, if we turn him into a completely different character than he is!"

    So like I said, there is no reason for him to exist.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The problem is that the Jaune Arc is so unneeded that its removal didn't even remove anything in the grand scheme of things. Outside of Cardin blackmailing Jaune, when does the "I faked my transcripts" thing come into play?
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    An Arthur clenched fist meme in Volume 5. It is quickly forgotten about afterwards.
     
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