RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Zam · Nov 21, 2018

VolantRedX said:
Have you ever heard the expression "the circle of life"? Death is the way that the world renews itself. Without it there'd be no room for new life. Things would stagnate and fail to advance.

I feel like you've kind of missed my entire point in the post, and I have no idea how to clarify it without coming across as rude.

VolantRedX said:
Not submission, she could have actually done what the gods told her to do and tried to find meaning in life and death. You know the thing she's told will end her curse and allow her to move on. Which she not only fails to do but as Jinn outright said she starts looking for ways to spite the gods.

Doing what the golds told her would be straight up submission. And ending her curse isn't what she wanted, or why she sought them out, she sought them out so they could bring back her lover who died of a disease while very young.

VolantRedX said:
I'm sorry I was just trying to make the broader point that it seems wrongheaded to look at the GoL as some faith healer who has some moral imparative to bring people back to the dead.

I am confused an unsure how this even ties into what I said.

VolantRedX said:
Because it's not her death she needs to come to terms with. She needs to learn why death is necessary in the world and even on some level a good thing. Being made to learn from one's errors by being cursed is a pretty common theme in myths and fairy tales.

This in no way addresses what I said.

VolantRedX · Nov 21, 2018

Frankly, this debate isn't going to go anywhere productive because the two of us just have totally different views on the nature of death. No matter what we say that gap isn't going to go away. I suggest we end it here and stop filling up the thread.

Bea · Nov 21, 2018

Psyga315 said:
Fatmanfalling gets money, yes, but that's from his Patreon, you know, the site that people who like people's work go and pay to have them continue making the work? This means that people have to like this guy enough to pay him money.

Oh, and you know what else? He likes Volume 6 so far.

Now, your last point is granted and makes me inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, I know plenty of critics that I think miss the point, misremember details, etc. but are making their arguments in good faith, even on Youtube. Counterpoint though: there is a very distinct trend for people who specialize in negative critique to be doing so disingenuously, and it can be absolutely demonstrated that they are doing such, but happen to sound convincing to people who haven't seen the work, don't remember it well, or dislike it and are willing to accept something that vindicates their opinion without fact-checking.

Now especially in the Early Days, this was more because they just wanted attention and views and likes. Then came things like advertisements and Patreon, and there was a monetary gain to do it too. Patreon honestly comes across as a bit less money-grubbing than the ads, but we have the aforementioned three groups that if you sound convincing enough, have a good presentation and style, and seem to support your arguments, you can fool a lot of people, to be willing to support you to keep putting out "good content" and maybe get perks. CinemaSins is the most well-documented example of this sort of thing, mostly because they are fucking huge, but I know actual dozens of similar people practically offhand.

And you can see how that could make someone rather cynical, ya? I wouldn't go so far (like I said, I know some reviewers I'm sure aren't like this at all even if I typically disagree with them and think they were often uncharitable), but I'm not sure that making a heuristic on this front is entirely unfair, and therefore our YTer in question falling under that.

Serval · Nov 21, 2018

Psyga315 said:
Oh, and you know what else? He likes Volume 6 so far.

Looks like he doesn't like Chapter 3 though. Appearently didn't have enough lore (no aura or semblance explanation).
Source: RWBY Volume 6 Episode 3: Lost Fable Reaction & Discussion

Q99 · Nov 21, 2018

VolantRedX said:
I'd suggest watching that scene again, she doesn't just lie by omission. Salem outright says she thought of no one else but the GoD and that she knew only he had the power to grant her wish. She's deliberately playing up his ego and lying about her actions in order to gain his trust. Also, the curse is hardly a curse. It's not like they've said: "you're going to live forever to suffer alone for your hubris and never see your love again". They outright say she needs to understand why both life and death must exist and once she does they'll lift the curse and let her rejoin Ozma in the afterlife she knows probably exists. Compared to a lot of gods of myth that's a very tame curse. It's actually not too dissimilar to what the GoL tells Oz to do, and tellingly Oz is shown actually trying to grow as a person. He learns from his mistakes and refuses to fall into dismay or bitterness.

Still, she was trying to manipulate him to save a life- and they made her immortal the same time they gave her a reason to have the mother of all grudges.

Tython82 · Nov 21, 2018

Speaking of comparing Salem to Demona who remembers the awesome episode where they deal with a similar situation to Salems with the Jackel god voiced by the late Tony Jay?

In the end the grieving father does learn the lesson Salem failed to learn....albeit through fusing himself with said god but still.

Tikigod784 · Nov 21, 2018

There's probably a parallel in the posters siding against the gods in this debating fans of jrpgs.

...considering the ff8 influences, I wonder if those two will be the final bosses?

Flare · Nov 21, 2018

Tikigod784 said:
There's probably a parallel in the posters siding against the gods in this debating fans of jrpgs.

...considering the ff8 influences, I wonder if those two will be the final bosses?

Nah, it probably will be the evil witch ~~Ultimecia~~ Salem, but only after gathering the ~~7 Lights and 13 Darknesses~~ Four Maidens to ~~usurp the Warring Triad~~ kill the Gods

Zam · Nov 21, 2018

Honestly I would find it hilarious if Salem's plan was kill/de-power the gods and something she actually pulls off and if de-powered then she's defeated, the cast are like "Yeah... no we aren't giving you power over the cosmos back, sorry but we don't think you're mature enough to handle it. But hey, this can be an important learning experience for you!"

Shinji117 · Nov 21, 2018

Zam said:
Honestly I would find it hilarious if Salem's plan was kill/de-power the gods and something she actually pulls off and if de-powered then she's defeated, the cast are like "Yeah... no we aren't giving you power over the cosmos back, sorry but we don't think you're mature enough to handle it. But hey, this can be an important learning experience for you!"

"Mortality is an important part of the natural order after all."

Sworl · Nov 21, 2018

Psyga315 said:
Logic time, if YouTube is this goldmine that you make it out to be, then why did RT move out to its own channel? Why not just set up shop on Youtube as well as their channel for maximum money?

Fatmanfalling gets money, yes, but that's from his Patreon, you know, the site that people who like people's work go and pay to have them continue making the work? This means that people have to like this guy enough to pay him money.

I should point out that using Youtube as a platform to get attention, followers and by extension monetary reward/support via patreon and increased traffic on your own website is a perfectly viable strategy. Hence why Alex Jones was so steamed about getting his videos removed from it and various social media websites.

Psyga315 said:
So... yeah, no. He just hates it for Youtube money and not aaaaannnnyyyyything else.

Based upon what I have been told, that seems like a possible conclusion to draw, yes.
I for one avoid the things I hate unless I have incentive not to.

I don't know anything about this Fatman; but I will say that if he has consistently found RWBY awful (or generally more bad than good by a wide margin) over the past five seasons, then one would have to wonder why he is still even watching the show, much less putting in the time and effort to make long verbose videos about it.

Could it perhaps be that acting like a self-righteous, belligerent loud mouth can win you easy money/attention/votes from people who want to have the opinions they already hold reinforced and/or validated in a theatrical, grandstanding manner?

Bea · Nov 21, 2018

Sworl said:
one would have to wonder why he is still even watching the show, much less putting in the time and effort to make long verbose videos about it.

Could it perhaps be that acting like a self-righteous, belligerent loud mouth can win you easy money/attention/votes from people who want to have the opinions they already hold reinforced and/or validated in a theatrical, grandstanding manner?

I used to watch things I hate- I watched all of Mahouka. There is a genuine strain of thought among people that through watching or experiencing bad things can both make you understand good storytelling more, and appreciate the things you like for what they do right in contrast. I don't believe this point of view has any merit anymore, but people do and I get why. Breaking it down through having to write a case for your opinion only would help with that in theory.

It also could be that he likes critiquing things, and RWBY was what he started critiquing and just hasn't decided to stop, perhaps believing it could genuinely get better- and for him it has a little, evidently. Or sunk cost fallacy set in. Or he feels just... off doing detailed critiques and then stopping in the middle of a work, and he had no idea how much he'd dislike it in full when he started. Or he hates it but thinks that it's just too popular still and wants to try and convince people, maybe entertain people, or support people that don't like it in some sense, and this is something that works for him and he enjoys.

I don't agree with many of his critiques, I dislike his video and argument style and think he is far too verbose, but there are plenty of reasons not to default to the worst faith assumption about a person.

devilkingx2 · Nov 21, 2018

I watched all of fatmanfalling's review and aside from some overly nitpicky complaints he makes a lot of good points

1. Night vision doesn't work that way so technically turning off the lights to make your camo harder to detect wouldn't work

2. There's literally constant retcons like the opening episode of V5 retconning the ending of volume 4 by changing how they got to mistral and what they did

3. The directors commentary is totally at odds with the show, claiming that yang tried not to pick a fight with a guy she punched immediately, implying she didn't see the bandit trap coming and followed a creep with a grudge into the woods on blind faith, corsec and fennec being hands off schemers supposedly, fennec who later died for the cause not being totally on board with Adam's plan, etc.

4. Countless plot holes nobody else picked up on, like how didn't cinder find it suspicious that raven can portal to them at any time but needs help assassinating Qrow, not noticing vernal's lack of maiden eyes, that one scene where raven uses maiden powers (faking that it's vernal) without her mask on, etc.

And much more.

Also lol at people who pretend to care that fatman dislikes their best friends miles and kerry, those poor rich and successful men being besieged by mean words from a random guy on the internet, what a horrible lives they must live *scene transition to miles in a hot tub with a hot blonde* nobody has ever survived not being liked by someone on the internet before *scene transitions to literally any interaction between two people online*

Mook · Nov 21, 2018

VolantRedX said:
Frankly, this debate isn't going to go anywhere productive because the two of us just have totally different views on the nature of death. No matter what we say that gap isn't going to go away. I suggest we end it here and stop filling up the thread.

I mean, if you're going to make a case for Salem being selfish I think a far more compelling argument can be made by pointing out that she used lies and deceit to get everyone aboard her "kill the gods plan" and that Jinn, the infallible and impartial narrator explicitly noted that she fully acknowledged the possibility that doing so could fail, but she went through with it anyway just because it might hurt the gods at least a little bit. It seems pretty safe to say that she cared more about fulfilling her own goal of spiting the gods than she cared about the lives of the people she was using as cannon fodder to accomplish that goal.

Especially when we see that after seemingly seeing an entire "army" being wiped out in an instant she vows to just keep tossing more people into the meat grinder, without a care in the world for their lives as long as she can keep spiting the gods. Its only after the God of Darkness points out that he saved everyone the time and effort by just wiping out everyone in one go that she lets go of the plan to keep sacrificing more people to annoy the gods.

Which really puts the whole "she blamed everyone but herself" thing into perspective. I mean really, if Ruby, or Blake, or Yang, or Ozpin, or whomever on the firmly good guy side had somehow managed to tick the God of Darkness off with the result being the genocide of the human race, do you think any of them would have blamed "humanity" instead of blaming themselves?

I mean, blame the God of Darkness sure, but if you declare war on the gods and use lies to get other people to join your war it seems pretty damn selfish to blame those people for being killed instead of blaming yourself for getting them killed. If Ironwood led a squad of his soldiers into a Grimm lair and ended up getting them all killed you could be damn sure he would feel responsible for their deaths, since he was the one who led them. But Salem felt not one iota of guilt for leading mankind to its doom, even though anyone with some good sense could have told her that picking a fight with gods was a bad, bad idea.

Serval said:
Looks like he doesn't like Chapter 3 though. Appearently didn't have enough lore (no aura or semblance explanation).
Source: RWBY Volume 6 Episode 3: Lost Fable Reaction & Discussion

So he's whining because Miles and Kerry didn't shove in exposition about power mechanics that are completely irrelevant to the story being told? I would say I'm surprised but I'm not.

devilkingx2 said:
2. There's literally constant retcons like the opening episode of V5 retconning the ending of volume 4 by changing how they got to mistral and what they did

I'm going to stop you right there. Volume 5 did no such thing. You just outed yourself as being exactly the kind of dupe we discussed earlier who falls for criticism of made up flaws because it "sounds right".

thesevenwielder · Nov 21, 2018

Psyga315 said:
So... You gonna show me some proof that they get paid in YouTube bucks in an industry where if you do anything slightly "advertiser unfriendly" (which has been shown to also include LGBTQ+ content) you don't see any nickle and dime, and, even if it is monetized, that money is likely going to RT due to "copyright infringement" (despite it being fair use) and not to the people making this content, and that's if the viewer doesn't have adblocker on?

Everything else you said is solid, such as Monty's being used as an excuse to bash his friends and long time partners, and your opinion is your opinion, but it's the belief that these people only criticize RWBY because it makes them money and not because they legitimately have problems with it is just arrogant.

Like, you're implying that there is no such thing as RWBY criticism because the people who have legitimate grievances with it are only saying that to get, what, literal nickles and dimes? Logic time, if YouTube is this goldmine that you make it out to be, then why did RT move out to its own channel? Why not just set up shop on Youtube as well as their channel for maximum money?

Fatmanfalling gets money, yes, but that's from his Patreon, you know, the site that people who like people's work go and pay to have them continue making the work? This means that people have to like this guy enough to pay him money.

Oh, and you know what else? He likes Volume 6 so far.

So... yeah, no. He just hates it for Youtube money and not aaaaannnnyyyyything else.

The species didn't go extinct though. Their bodies disappeared in the light, that means they didn't die because we didn't see their bodies. /salty s

Oh my god, this. Claiming that people only criticize RWBY for YouTube monies is so dishonest.

VolantRedX · Nov 21, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
Oh my god, this. Claiming that people only criticize RWBY for YouTube monies is so dishonest.

Think it was more that Fatman specifically does. Even if it was all born from a pure motive that doesn't change the fact that he's terrible at being a critic. No matter his complaints, no matter how right or wrong he is the fact he's putting out 2 hour long videos show he's just shit at his job.

Gears · Nov 21, 2018

VolantRedX said:
no matter how right or wrong he is the fact he's putting out 2 hour long videos show he's just shit at his job.

if video length is the only quality standard for criticism i'd be platformed on vine.

VolantRedX · Nov 21, 2018

Gears said:
if video length is the only quality standard for criticism i'd be platformed on vine.

It's not that the short video is better, but 2 hours is way too long for any critical take. It shows a lack of discipline and focus. It's easy to rant about anything for 2 hours, never mind something as flawed as RWBY, but the mark of a skilled critic would be to boil the major points down to a manageable length and focus on several major points.

thesevenwielder · Nov 21, 2018

Serval said:
Looks like he doesn't like Chapter 3 though. Appearently didn't have enough lore (no aura or semblance explanation).
Source: RWBY Volume 6 Episode 3: Lost Fable Reaction & Discussion

Mook said:
So he's whining because Miles and Kerry didn't shove in exposition about power mechanics that are completely irrelevant to the story being told? I would say I'm surprised but I'm not.

How is that not a legitimate criticism? How was Humanity able to live long enough to develop semblances and aura with the Grimm pools constantly spawning? Did they exist before the gods left? Yes, I am aware that it wasn't exactly pertinent to Ozpin's backstory, but you must also understand that this was supposed to be the exposition / backstory episode. Just because the volume is better and has a lot of strong points going for it doesn't mean that it's flawless.

I'm going to stop you right there. Volume 5 did no such thing. You just outed yourself as being exactly the kind of dupe we discussed earlier who falls for criticism of made up flaws because it "sounds right".

Everyone makes mistakes now and then. Personally I've found most of his points correct in some way. But yes, I went back to check the transcript, and FMF was wrong on that particular point.

VolantRedX said:
Think it was more that Fatman specifically does. Even if it was all born from a pure motive that doesn't change the fact that he's terrible at being a critic. No matter his complaints, no matter how right or wrong he is the fact he's putting out 2 hour long videos show he's just shit at his job.

No.

Imma stop you right there.

Every. Single. Time. A critiquer of RWBY pops up, at least a dozen of you all start yelling that they are just doing it for the clicks and YouTube Monies.

For chrissakes, it is so absurd that even when those people have actually complimented this volume, you still say they are only doing it for clicks.

Like it is literally unfathomable for you all that people could actually have legitimate issues with the show, or genuinely compliment it when it does something right. Frankly I'm surprised that I haven't been accused of criticizing the show for clicks.

Serval · Nov 21, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
How is that not a legitimate criticism? How was Humanity able to live long enough to develop semblances and aura with the Grimm pools constantly spawning? Did they exist before the gods left? Yes, I am aware that it wasn't exactly pertinent to Ozpin's backstory, but you must also understand that this was supposed to be the exposition / backstory episode. Just because the volume is better and has a lot of strong points going for it doesn't mean that it's flawless.

I feel it's a bit strange to not like an entire episode for what it didn't show. Like, was he expecting to get an answer to every mystery of Remnant in the 3rd episode of the season?
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I have a feeling he had certain expectations and when they weren't furfilled, he had a kneejerk reaction of disliking the episode. It certainly happens to me sometimes with some movies.

VolantRedX · Nov 21, 2018

thesevenwielder said:
No.

Imma stop you right there.

Every. Single. Time. A critiquer of RWBY pops up, at least a dozen of you all start yelling that they are just doing it for the clicks and YouTube Monies.

For chrissakes, it is so absurd that even when those people have actually complimented this volume, you still say they are only doing it for clicks.

Like it is literally unfathomable for you all that people could actually have legitimate issues with the show, or genuinely compliment it when it does something right. Frankly I'm surprised that I haven't been accused of criticizing the show for clicks.

Fuck off with that dude, I've criticized this show so don't come in with "you people don't believe that people can have any criticism". I even point out that Fatman had a lot of solid points in his video, but it doesn't matter because he's not good at his self-appointed task. The easiest thing in the world is to rant undisciplined about anything, but actual skill and critical ability are in finding a focused argument that boils your issues down into an actually focused and useful critique. Actually, skilled critics are able to focus their points and make arguments that aren't longer than the show they're critiquing. And if he truly can't cut a single second of his script, then make 8, 15 minute long episodes each focusing on an overarching theme. Show some discipline and actual fucking craftsmanship. Even if every point he makes is valid and thought out it's not a useful critic, because it's two fucking hours long. If FMF wants to be seen as an actual critic and not just nerd rambling into a mic for hours he needs to actually take pride in his work and try to be a critic.

Psyga315 · Nov 21, 2018

I do admit 2 hours is pretty long and he'd probably service himself better by splitting them into smaller videos, since he tends to bring up random episodes on tangents.

Like, at one point he literally decides to change topics to something else.

I should also bring up that this is just part one of the review. Part 2 is most likely gonna cover Battle of Haven.

Bea · Nov 21, 2018

I honestly think it is possible to make a 1-2 hour critique (or in most cases honestly above 30) of something and not have it be meandering, unfocused, have minor quibbles that distract from your key points that are also far more disputable and nitpicky, hit on the same point in far too many ways because you don't know when to stop (I have this problem when arguing sometimes tbh), and just have parts that could be chopped completely off.

I just haven't seen one yet.

I don't think fatman is doing this in bad faith, I think he can have points worthy of consideration, sometimes acceptance. His presentation is terrible and the way his videos bloat make them almost unwatchable for anybody that wants to do any reasonable degree of fact-checking. If he wants to be a good critic, he should present his videos in a more concise way; even splitting it off into subsections and such would do such a massive service. the bar of entry here is so great that I can almost guarantee you that regardless of what YT commenters may claim, 99% of the people that properly engage with his work will be people explicitly directed to it, or people looking forward to a bashfest (even if it isn't quite what they necessarily get).

hellgodsrus · Nov 21, 2018

Yup. I dislike fatmanfalling not because he dislikes RWBY, but because his criticisms are generally nonsense and the ones that aren't are buried under such massive piles of bad delivery that I generally don't notice them. You can do good long-form critiques, but it takes a lot of effort and structuring, and generally requires some sort of substantive analysis.

The only hour-plus video essays I can think of off the top of my head that I enjoy are MovieBob's Really That Good videos - partly because he deliberately made it as the antithesis of standard internet negativity, and partly because he uses actual critical analysis, discussion of themes, etc., and is always willing to admit when he's not an expert on the subject (like in his video on the Matrix where he says that as he doesn't know that much about gender studies it makes it hard for him to do a substantive critique of the debated idea of it being a metaphor for transness). And even then, he can go on long diversionary tangents that detract from the main point he's trying to make.

Slater · Nov 21, 2018

Regardless of the rampant mediocrity of most youtube reviewers.

I remember for years people used to joke about Ozpin being discount Dumbledore. More specifically during V1-3 then after but still.

But this volume has imo really turned him into one of the best characters in the show.

He's a real neat mix of Dumbledore, the Wizard of Oz and the Avatar.

Actually speaking of Avatar he even has two Gods being massive parts of his origin. Though hilariously the Brothers are actually wayyyy more nuanced the the Kites from Korra simply because there capable of talking through there disagreements , apologizing for misunderstandings and working together.

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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