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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • I am pretty disappointed about Ilia as she has history in Atlas and could offer insights on how Faunus live there and are treated, I've heard she's getting a new outfit though and as this is a travel volume she may end up involved in the Atlas volume though I may be hoping in vain. Regardless, I would have liked her above all to be involved so I am sad to hear it.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    It has been confirmed Ilya will be staying behind in Mistral. Token gay character has appeared, checkmark ticked, tine to get rid of her. And before you go defending the decision by "character bloat" keep in mind that Ren and Nora will be coming along. And they have contributed so much in the last volume and have such interesting character arcs going on, amirite? Meanwhile Ilya could have actually had a purpose given her former life in Atlas and she might have to confront old demons while being able to give info about Atlas to the other protags. But nope, writing a character that happens to be gay is apparently beyond Miles Luna,so off she goes into the fridge.
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    I'm not gonna defend the decision. I like Ilia. But, well, I got the context I asked for, so thanks for that, at least.
     
    In depth summary of the NYCC preview; I'll try to draw attention to some stuff that hasn't been mentioned in the other sources posted.
    The preview looks far more complete than anything that's been shown at previous panels. There were no missing textures or models, the fight wasn't missing any animations, and soundtrack & VA work have been added already. In combination with the progress shown on gen:lock production looks to be significantly ahead of previous volumes.

    The preview opens with a skyrim-esque landscape, lots of snow and rocks. Eventually the camera focuses on a train track cutting alongside a mountain range. As the train passes closer to the camera team RWBY becomes visible on top of the train cars. A flock of manticore grimm are flying next to the train, shooting fireballs.

    RWBY is pretty much oneshotting them. Ruby herself is tipping towards over-confident; she almost gets blindsided by one of the manticores but Weiss is watching her back and creates an ice wall to protect her. JN_R climbs up to help defend against the grimm. Jaune holds position and blocks fireballs and Ren and Nora do a small combo maneuver.

    Suddenly RWBYJN_R notice a tunnel ahead and scramble to get back in the train cars. Weiss almost stumbles off the train car when they hit a bump, but Ruby catches her and uses her semblance to carry both of them to safety. Weiss warps into the same visual effect as Ruby does when she uses her semblance, except white.

    After the train enters the tunnel we cut to Adam in White Fang's throne room. Adam is not rejected by normal grunts. He's being denied by the same treacherous guards who helped him cover up Sienna's assassination. They may be trying to support a different figurehead, as Adam keeps saying "step away from my throne". The guards cite his cowardice and clear obsession with the Belladonna girl as reasons he shouldn't be in charge. When they bring Blake up Adam kills everyone in the room. He stares at the throne, mutters "the Belladonna girl", and cuts the throne in half in a rage.

    Cut to the train station. The train fight was in media res. They specifically show that the line to Vale is out of service. This next part might be a bit out of order:

    Qrow is sending a letter to Ironwood. The voiceover of the letter tells us how they handled Haven aftermath. Officially, Lionheart died heroically defending Haven against the terrorists and Ghira's militia was credited with stopping them. Qrow states he expects the train to get there before the letter, but alludes to the Relic being with them just in case. "We're bringing more than just bad news."

    An excited Ruby tells him to hurry up before using her semblance to weave through a crowd like traffic cones (she still doesn't demonstrate sharp turns though). She's bought a gift for Yang from the gift shop. We don't learn what's in the bag during the preview, but Yang would really like to know too. Nora wants a beach episode. Ren pictures himself shivering on a snow-covered Atlesian beach and says no thanks.

    Weiss is annoyed that they're all so excited to go to Atlas. "Some of us went to considerable effort to leave". Ruby tells her not to worry, her team will be with her every step of the way. The group is then approached by a pair of mookish Huntsmen.

    The huntsmen are the contracted protectors of the train, but they're here to offer special attention to RWBYJN_R's traincar to make sure its extra safe... as long as they pay an additional fee. Wink wink, nudge nudge. RWBYJN_R is disgusted. Qrow shows up and flashes his huntsman license to make them buzz off.

    Oscar jokes that saving the world is a big responsibility, but whenever guys like that show up he's glad it's their responsibility instead. Everyone chuckles. "Now we're just waiting on Blake... as usual." salts Weiss.

    Blake is saying goodbye to Ilia. Ilia feels she doesn't deserve the freedom Ghira granted her. Blake tells her to deal with it, and that she can show her gratitude by helping Ghira continue to improve human-faunus relations in Mistral. Ghira's militia being credited for stopping the Haven attack was a huge boost to the faunus image. Ilia goes for a hug, which Blake returns.

    Sun arrives to say goodbye too. Neptune also pops out from behind Sun, but gets distracted when he sees Ilia. Sun says Blake doesn't need him anymore, which makes her a sad kitty. Sun says it's not just that. "Seeing your team back together made me realize... I'm like the worst leader ever." Sun is taking SSSN to do some good in Vacuo. Blake steps in and gives him a kiss on the cheek, end preview.
    Weiss's scarf somehow works with her outfit. It looked like the same color and texture as Ruby's cape, which drew so much visual attention I didn't notice her stockings at all. She has these new accessories because its cold. She also has a suitcase in the train station, which could be carrying dust or the Relic.

    Ruby's semblance gains have continued, and she is clearly over the moon about the team being back together.

    CRWBY paid attention to the complaints about teleportation during the last group battle. The first group fight of the season is distributed over evenly spaced train cars, making it much easier to track where people are. I personally am expecting a Manticore King/Duke/Lord/whatever to show up at some point.

    The WF may have been excised from the story what with Adam murdering the people who propped up its internal power structure + Ghira's leadership of the militia being noted to successfully improve the faunus image.
     
    StellarSeeker said:
    Y'know, you can make this point without implying that the writers of the show are homophobic.
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    This does fit the pattern of tokenism and minimalization that you often see from writers who want progressive cred but don't actually want to have gay characters.

    Its a pretty endemic sort of homophobia among pop writers. And calling it out is a good thing.
     
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    I mean, I get being salty about this show. While I try to couch my harder critiques with soft language, l understand the frustration.

    Leila Hann said:
    Its a pretty endemic sort of homophobia among pop writers. And calling it out is a good thing.
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    Yeah, I think there an important distinction there. We don't know who they are as people (public personas being just that) and we don't know what they feel.

    But the decisions a creator makes can be judged. Whether it's for the homophobic culture it helps perpetuate or something else, calling them out for those decisions is something that should be done.

    Like, I think JK Rowling probably isn't a racist or homophobic, but she's made some really ugly decisions in her work and also from the safety of her Twitter feed. I'll call things like that in a heartbeat.

    The fact that she's usually defensive when people bring up her ignorant decisions rather than listening to those people might just mean she's really emotionally invested in Harry Potter, but even if she isn't racist, not acknowledging or working to improve those problematic elements helps those who are.

    Put another way, if you say something homophobic, even if it's not what you feel in your heart, you still said something homophobic. The action speaks for itself.
     
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    I'm going to withhold judgement for now given that I'm 90% sure we're going to see at least some shipping this season and wouldn't be shocked if Ruby is confirmed to have feelings for Penny.
     
    Mook said:
    Especially considering that in one of the other series Miles and Kerry worked on we have Mr and Mr Miller who are awesome, hilarious and adorable together.
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    I... don't know if that works as a defense.

    I mean, maybe you could see one thing cancelling out the other, but in general I think each thing needs to be looked at on it's own terms.
     
    I mean, regardless of what you think of the person/people that gave it, it's a valid point. You can certainly make the argument that "shipping is coming", but let's remember that that's the argument we've been making (more others than me last couple seasons) since at least Volume 2 and it never goes anywhere. Now it might this time, that is something that nobody can deny, but the longer they put it off, one has to agree that the less likely it's going to be executed in, at the very least, a meaningful way.

    Like, I've honestly been old school and shipped White Rose and Bumblebee since Volume 2 at the latest, and I still kinda do. But the show feels determined to toss every spanner in the works as possible, and make it as hard as possible for me to believe that at the very least, it's going to become canon. (Which certainly isn't NECESSARY, but it'd be nice and show their commitment to equality, diversity, all that good stuff, like Monty promised several volumes ago.) And like... the more the show seems to show no particular interest in pushing a F/F (or M/M for that matter) ship, the more I think a reasonable case can be made that if they intend to, they're just going to slap it onto the end, or near the end, and pretend that means something despite the hours upon hours fans waited for it to happen.

    The lack of thought and lack of care that have gone into building up such a relationship and if anything providing contrary evidence, can lead to somebody viewing events like this with cynicism. It's certainly possible that they're still going somewhere with all this, and that the contrary evidence won't mean anything in the long run, but we can't know either way so when we do get points that signal in that direction, concern and even cynicism aren't entirely unreasonable.
     
    To be honest, I don't trust the show in showing any kind of ship, regardless of the genders of those in relationships together. I remember how they showed Ren and Nora holding hands at the end of Volume 4 and that was it - did they even share any dialogue together in Volume 5? I'd rather them not even dip their toes into shipping at all if it means any potential couples get the Renora treatment.
     
    Emma said:
    I... don't know if that works as a defense.

    I mean, maybe you could see one thing cancelling out the other, but in general I think each thing needs to be looked at on it's own terms.
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    It does when the accusation is not only that a show is bad with gay representation but that the writers are actively being homophobic. Again these are the same writers that worked on a show with lines like "My cool gay dads. :coolbeans:" and "You danced with two girls tonight, and a dude. I'd say that makes you pretty cool. :cool:"


    Like yeah, as Broken Base points out there hasn't been any real gay romance. But there also has barely been any romance at all. The only truly canonical ship in the show so far is Arkos, and that sunk as soon as it launched.
     
    Mook said:
    It does when the accusation is not only that a show is bad with gay representation but that the writers are actively being homophobic. Again these are the same writers that worked on a show with lines like "My cool gay dads. :coolbeans:" and "You danced with two girls tonight, and a dude. I'd say that makes you pretty cool. :cool:"


    Like yeah, as Broken Base points out there hasn't been any real gay romance. But there also has barely been any romance at all. The only truly canonical ship in the show so far is Arkos, and that sunk as soon as it launched.
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    Flower Power is a canonical ship technically....they just haven't done anything with it yet.
     
    Mook said:
    It does when the accusation is not only that a show is bad with gay representation but that the writers are actively being homophobic. Again these are the same writers that worked on a show with lines like "My cool gay dads. :coolbeans:" and "You danced with two girls tonight, and a dude. I'd say that makes you pretty cool. :cool:"
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    I really feel that doesn't address the point, but there's probably nothing productive that'll come from continuing this.

    Tython82 said:
    Flower Power is a canonical ship technically....they just haven't done anything with it yet.
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    I love shipping, but Renora is the one I'd really like to stay platonic. A straight girl and boy with an intimate friendship without needing romance is what I like about their dynamic.
     
    Emma said:
    I love shipping, but Renora is the one I'd really like to stay platonic. A straight girl and boy with an intimate friendship without needing romance is what I like about their dynamic.
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    Nora was introduced as having feelings for Ren. Like at no point was their relationship platonic.

    As for Illia specifically why I'd like to see her stick around especially in Atlas I can see why the writers would leave her behind. Her arc was over, and her main role was to interact with Blake while giving the WF a humanizing face. Her being gay wasn't really all that important to her character beyond explaining her focus on Blake. Having her stick around doing fuck all because she's "the gay one" and they need her to be part of the story for representation would be worse because that is the definition of tokenism. As it is it looks like the writers are moving on from Blake's arc and characters like Sun, Illia, and her parents are heading off to allow new characters to enter the story.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Nora was introduced as having feelings for Ren. Like at no point was their relationship platonic.
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    Really? Huh, well, maybe when I saw that I just read the scene as Nora just having a lot of feelings in general, but I suppose it's just a part of season one that's slowly evolved inside my head into something different from what it actually was.

    I still prefer my thing, though, even if it's fakey nonsense.
     
    Does RWBY even need relationships? I feel its kinda overstretched as it is, especially when its short run time is considered. Given how unfocused several of its themes and plots have been, I'd rather they stick to what they know rather than bringing in an unknown element. Nothing wrong with just having people be friends.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Having her stick around doing fuck all because she's "the gay one" and they need her to be part of the story for representation would be worse because that is the definition of tokenism.
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    Easy fix. Make everyone gay.



    Gaz said:
    Does RWBY even need relationships? I feel its kinda overstretched as it is, especially when its short run time is considered. Given how unfocused several of its themes and plots have been, I'd rather they stick to what they know rather than bringing in an unknown element. Nothing wrong with just having people be friends.
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    Does it need it? No, but personally, a story like this without romantic love would end up feeling a bit too sterile for me. That's just a taste thing, but still.

    And still, you can have queer characters even if the story has no romance in it.
     
    Emma said:
    Really? Huh, well, maybe when I saw that I just read the scene as Nora just having a lot of feelings in general, but I suppose it's just a part of season one that's slowly evolved inside my head into something different from what it actually was.
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    Volant is overselling it in my opinion, but Volumes 1 and 2 are certainly very heavy with subtext.

    Gaz said:
    Does RWBY even need relationships? I feel its kinda overstretched as it is, especially when its short run time is considered.
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    I was going to write a lot here but I've done a lot of effort posts today and I'm a little tired. Romance gives adventure stories nuance and depth, they provide the characters with stronger bonds, further reasons for them to be fighting and pushing their limits, something that ties them when everything gets darkest, people that they know will have their back and thus they can enter the most fearsome danger with a smile; even if she can't be there in reality, she's there in spirit.

    You know, stuff like that.
     
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