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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Q99 said:
    Yea. I only care about the way he is- how he developed could've gone either way or a bit of a feedback loop.

    Heck, meta-wise, did the creators make the personality first and then the semblance, or the other way around? No way of knowing.
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    Knowing how the writing might have worked, they thought of the Semblance first, left his character for a lengthy time, then when it's time to bring him into RWBY proper, just write his character as his character without factoring in his Semblance, or at least try to fit the Semblance better to his persona.
     
    The Narrator said:
    Probably the semblance. I get the impression that his intended characterization shifted a bit over the first few seasons before settling on creepy stalker ex.
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    What gave you the impression it shifted? I mean, he was introduced as a manipulative mass murderer who chose meaningless bloodshed over useful resources and had to hide behind Blake in order to use his oneshot Semblance which he also cackled happily about using before swinging it.

    I don't feel any of that is incongruous with what we saw later.
     
    Zam said:
    What gave you the impression it shifted? I mean, he was introduced as a manipulative mass murderer who chose meaningless bloodshed over useful resources and had to hide behind Blake in order to use his oneshot Semblance which he also cackled happily about using before swinging it.

    I don't feel any of that is incongruous with what we saw later.
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    Was he cackling in the Black Trailer? :???: I don't recall him showing much emotion at all.

    We really didn't see much of Adam between the Black Trailer and the end of Volume 3, so there was mostly just guesswork, but I think most people were operating under the assumption that, while he was probably a pretty evil dude, his main motivating factor was probably The Cause, rather than tormenting his ex-girlfriend. The psycho-stalker bit caught a lot of viewers by surprise. (It was never entirely clear before Volume 3 whether they had even been romantically involved.)
     
    The Narrator said:
    Was he cackling in the Black Trailer? :???: I don't recall him showing much emotion at all.

    We really didn't see much of Adam between the Black Trailer and the end of Volume 3, so there was mostly just guesswork, but I think most people were operating under the assumption that, while he was probably a pretty evil dude, his main motivating factor was probably The Cause, rather than tormenting his ex-girlfriend. The psycho-stalker bit caught a lot of viewers by surprise. (It was never entirely clear before Volume 3 whether they had even been romantically involved.)
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    After her got juiced up by the laser blast he let out a cackle if I recall:



    Sure, but what people expected isn't the same as what was canon, which I got the impression is what you were arguing with your "I get the impression that his intended characterization shifted a bit over the first few seasons before settling on creepy stalker ex.". Lots of people expected him to be some tortured bad boy in need of Blake's love to redeem himself, or a heroic character, or a morally grey antagonist ETC, but that doesn't mean the show shifted his intended characterization, merely that people's expectations were off base.

    Sorry if I misunderstood anything.
     
    The better question is: which interpretation is going to be the one that RT decides to go "Sure, why not?" to when somebody brings it up in an interview panel?
     
    Zam said:
    After her got juiced up by the laser blast he let out a cackle if I recall:
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    ...it might be a cackle? It's weirdly short and hard to hear clearly over the music and sound effects.

    Like I said, "evil" was expected. "Stalker ex" was not.


    Zam said:
    Sure, but what people expected isn't the same as what was canon, which I got the impression is what you were arguing with your "I get the impression that his intended characterization shifted a bit over the first few seasons before settling on creepy stalker ex.". Lots of people expected him to be some tortured bad boy in need of Blake's love to redeem himself, or a heroic character, or a morally grey antagonist ETC, but that doesn't mean the show shifted his intended characterization, merely that people's expectations were off base.
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    Yeah, but the completely lack of anything to hint at "Adam the abusive stalker" in the first two and a half seasons makes me doubt that they'd already decided that part from the beginning. Obviously it's impossible to know unless you were in the RT offices at the time, but you'd think they'd have shown us something to indicate it in the first couple volumes.


    Zam said:
    some tortured bad boy in need of Blake's love to redeem himself,
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    Fuck no. I hate that "Draco In Leather Pants" bullshit.
     
    Delphisage said:
    The better question is: which interpretation is going to be the one that RT decides to go "Sure, why not?" to when somebody brings it up in an interview panel?
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    Can you clarify that?

    The Narrator said:
    ...it might be a cackle? It's weirdly short and hard to hear clearly over the music and sound effects.

    Like I said, "evil" was expected. "Stalker ex" was not.
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    Fair enough it is pretty short.

    More or less what I said before, sorry, I get having certain expectations, oh goodness I do, but that's not the same as them changing things.

    The Narrator said:
    Yeah, but the completely lack of anything to hint at "Adam the abusive stalker" in the first two and a half seasons makes me doubt that they'd already decided that part from the beginning. Obviously it's impossible to know unless you were in the RT offices at the time, but you'd think they'd have shown us something to indicate it in the first couple volumes.
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    As I said, he was shown to be manipulative, had a disregard for Blake's feelings and opinions, if we hear the laugh enjoys being juiced up with destructive power and also actively relishes in pointless mass murder even when it is impractical, so while stalker ex wasn't telegraphed, I am unsure that was a mistake over it just being a surprise as he was very much marketed as evil.

    The Narrator said:
    Fuck no. I hate that "Draco In Leather Pants" bullshit.
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    Fair and good.
     
    It's not like he did any stalking per se until S3 anyway and started being super-possessive in his words in the first conversation they had post-train heist. They were together until the moment when Blake decided to get out of dodge due to the unnecessary murder plan.

    But back in S1 Blake was still the person who found the WF had gone too far and quit, and Adam specifically the straw that broke the camel's back. He almost certainly had smaller incidents before she made her split on the train, and after that she had time to think things over and see the pattern more. And her cold and untrusting attitude- she acted like someone who'd been hurt and it took a bit for the other girls to get in.
     
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    Zam said:
    Can you clarify that?
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    Not much to clarify. I don't believe there was a clear motive for making Adam the way he was other than "samurai are cool, and making antagonists into jilted ex-lovers makes them scary". For some reason, my mind drifted from "Adam deliberately fights this way" to "RoosterTeeth deliberately wrote Adam this way" to "If anyone asks if it was deliberate, they'll lie through their teeth and say they did". Again, I'm paranoid and cynical enough to assume the worst of this show's production to the point that I think they're stealing ideas from the fandom and using them in the show.
     
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    Delphisage said:
    Not much to clarify. I don't believe there was a clear motive for making Adam the way he was other than "samurai are cool, and making antagonists into jilted ex-lovers makes them scary". For some reason, my mind drifted from "Adam deliberately fights this way" to "RoosterTeeth deliberately wrote Adam this way" to "If anyone asks if it was deliberate, they'll lie through their teeth and say they did". Again, I'm paranoid and cynical enough to assume the worst of this show's production to the point that I think they're stealing ideas from the fandom and using them in the show.
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    Or, more likely, he was made that way to fit Blake's story, and Blake is someone who certainly has had her motives talked about in the writing room. Adam was made to fit Blake's story needs and fits so a lot of both her arc and initial attitude.

    Your cynicism doesn't really fit with what'd make sense, I think it's too knee-jerk. At some point occam's razor just says they thought about stuff, it's downright silly to attribute every move that works to 'luck'. No writer is that lucky, and writing isn't rolling dice.
     
    Delphisage said:
    Not much to clarify. I don't believe there was a clear motive for making Adam the way he was other than "samurai are cool, and making antagonists into jilted ex-lovers makes them scary". For some reason, my mind drifted from "Adam deliberately fights this way" to "RoosterTeeth deliberately wrote Adam this way" to "If anyone asks if it was deliberate, they'll lie through their teeth and say they did". Again, I'm paranoid and cynical enough to assume the worst of this show's production to the point that I think they're stealing ideas from the fandom and using them in the show.
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    I agree with Q99, and feel you haven't really provided anything to support this claim.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Speaking of Adam and fan theories on Tumblr, here is something I found
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    I don't see anything. I think you typed in your link improperly.

    Q99 said:
    Or, more likely, he was made that way to fit Blake's story, and Blake is someone who certainly has had her motives talked about in the writing room. Adam was made to fit Blake's story needs and fits so a lot of both her arc and initial attitude.

    Your cynicism doesn't really fit with what'd make sense, I think it's too knee-jerk. At some point occam's razor just says they thought about stuff, it's downright silly to attribute every move that works to 'luck'. No writer is that lucky, and writing isn't rolling dice.
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    I know it's kneejerk. But I just do not have the desire to give this show's writing the optimistic benefit of the doubt. Occam really cannot help here when Hanlon seems just as applicable.

    Still, I do admit that it's an interpretation that could indeed work for Adam's character. Kinda silly that it was made in defense of Blake's fight against Adam only lasting one exchange, though, since I really don't have any issues with that scene as far as the self-contained episode goes. It manages to fit standard samurai tropes, and the whole scene was obviously meant to be about Adam getting utterly humiliated by Menagerie. Shame that RT decided to backtrack the very next episode and have him get away.
     
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    Delphisage said:
    I know it's kneejerk. But I just do not have the desire to give this show's writing the optimistic benefit of the doubt. Occam really cannot help here when Hanlon seems just as applicable.
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    Hanlon's razor... when they got something right? That doesn't really fit when talking a positive.

    Basically the crewby would have to be the luckiest writers on the planet to 'accidentally' hit consistent characterizations like that.

    If they didn't have it planned in advance- which seems unlikely considering how much setup is done in S1- then they worked back and made it fit, which is also writing skill.

    Shame that RT decided to backtrack the very next episode and have him get away.
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    That's not really backtracking, at least not personality-wise. That's showing how he's a coward when things aren't going his way- and the hit he took wasn't that bad, so he's in relatively good shape.
     
    Him getting away annoys me from a narrative standpoint, because I'm not really sure what purpose he serves to the story at this point. Blake's already overcome her fear of him and proven that she can beat him, so having him as an adversary doesn't really accomplish anything for her character arc anymore, and the plot is moving past the White Fang onto more important villains. I guess they could still give Yang a crack at him, but we've got no shortage of named villains at this point, so I'd rather they'd cut out some of the chaff.
     
    I'm honestly wishing for something really stupid to happen with Adam after this, like him killing Raven and stealing her powers.
     
    The Narrator said:
    Him getting away annoys me from a narrative standpoint, because I'm not really sure what purpose he serves to the story at this point. Blake's already overcome her fear of him and proven that she can beat him, so having him as an adversary doesn't really accomplish anything for her character arc anymore, and the plot is moving past the White Fang onto more important villains. I guess they could still give Yang a crack at him, but we've got no shortage of named villains at this point, so I'd rather they'd cut out some of the chaff.
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    Blake overcame him in a situation where she had all the advantages, that doesn't mean he can't pose a personal threat to her, or Yang for that matter who still hasn't had the chance to confront her trauma over what he did to her. So I feel there is still room for him to serve as personal villain.

    Delphisage said:
    I'm honestly wishing for something really stupid to happen with Adam after this, like him killing Raven and stealing her powers.
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    Pretty sure that would be impossible for several reasons.
     
    Delphisage said:
    I'm honestly wishing for something really stupid to happen with Adam after this, like him killing Raven and stealing her powers.
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    That's one thing that there's no danger of. That Y chromosome means he can't have Maiden powers.

    I don't think we have to worry too much about Adam turning into a Villain Sue. As far as that sort of thing goes, I was way more annoyed by Cinder surviving being crushed under tons of metal during her fight with Pyrrha or Hazel not going down after all the shit that got piled on him (or through him) at the end of Volume 5.
     
    The Narrator said:
    I don't think we have to worry too much about Adam turning into a Villain Sue. As far as that sort of thing goes, I was way more annoyed by Cinder surviving being crushed under tons of metal during her fight with Pyrrha or Hazel not going down after all the shit that got piled on him (or through him) at the end of Volume 5.
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    And you just know they're gonna refuse to kill off Cinder after all this.

    Zam said:
    Pretty sure that would be impossible for several reasons.
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    Would sure be a useful way of keeping him relevant after refusing to just get rid of him in the finale, though. Though it's probably redundant to give Yang another reason for revenge on Adam when he already took her arm off, though I also have the feeling that the robot arm just made her stronger and wouldn't be motive enough because of it.
     
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    Delphisage said:
    And you just know they're gonna refuse to kill off Cinder after all this.
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    We don't actually know that.

    Delphisage said:
    Would sure be a useful way of keeping him relevant after refusing to just get rid of him in the finale, though. Though it's probably redundant to give Yang another reason for revenge on Adam when he already took her arm off, though I also have the feeling that the robot arm just made her stronger and wouldn't be motive enough because of it.
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    He traumatized her and stole a piece of her, however useful the prosthetic is, Yang would probably much rather not have been traumatized, face night terrors, lose her arm and thus all feeling and sensation there.

    The Narrator said:
    Hazel got impaled. That implies that his Aura was breached. But it didn't seem to amount to much in the end.
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    Aura seems more vulnerable when people are surprised, plus we know powerful enough attack can breach it even if there's still Aura present, Adam's strike, The Grimm Knights punch.
     
    Hazel not only has aura, but (1) a durability-related semblance, and (2) his aura is specifically noted as regenerating fast.

    So Weiss's attack might've pierced him when he was at 40%, knocked him down to 20%, and then it can go up again from there.

    Also I think Cinder is dead.
     
    Sure would've been nice if they actually showed what they were talking about with regards to Hazel's aura regenerating.
     
    Delphisage said:
    Sure would've been nice if they actually showed what they were talking about with regards to Hazel's aura regenerating.
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    I mean, they showed him taking way too many hits, and aura's not really that visible except when it takes a hard hit or breaks. Considering precise aura level is fairly invisible, it's not something that lends itself to a visual representation.
     
    Q99 said:
    I mean, they showed him taking way too many hits, and aura's not really that visible except when it takes a hard hit or breaks. Considering precise aura level is fairly invisible, it's not something that lends itself to a visual representation.
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    It didn't have to be presented as invisible-until-it-breaks, though. Aura is the most clearly inspired by Halo's energy shields, and those things showed pretty clearly whenever they got hit by something, even showing how low the shields were getting in later titles by getting brighter and more visible as they kept taking hits. Here, the only way to tell how strong or weak an aura is is if it gets broken or if they just straight-up show us an HP bar.
     
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