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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Claudette Savagely said:
    Your definition of pretention makes anyone considering creative stuff beyond "wow, sure is pretty/ugly!" pretentious.

    I don't know what to say to this lol
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    Or I think people should choose what creative stuff they decide to dissect. There's a difference between reading the deeper meanings behind something like a Clockwork Orange and trying to find a deeper meaning from what is basically a simple cartoon. Not every piece of media is meant to be studied like that. There is such a thing as simple pop culture.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Or I think people should choose what creative stuff they decide to dissect. There's a difference between reading the deeper meanings behind something like a Clockwork Orange and trying to find a deeper meaning from what is basically a simple cartoon. Not every piece of media is meant to be studied like that. There is such a thing as simple pop culture.
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    And you decide what simple is, of course.

    I'll leave you to arbitrate our collective understanding of creative work as a species.

    Must be busy.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    There are no broader themes being expressed, no greater message to understand. It's a simple action sequence from a simple action show. No more No less. Can we please move on now?
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    While I'm not super sold on Psycho!Yang, I still find this attitude a little... wrongheaded? This may not be exactly what you're trying to get at, but I feel like it rhymes with it, at least.

     
    I'll be honest Leila's being a little disingenuous. A lot of Yang's "psycho moments" could be insensitivity or unintended malice. It's basically making a mountain out of a molehill and overblowing key details (Sorta like how Noah Berlatsky ignores that the superheroes are only portrayed as admirable if they face their demons or they are forced to admit that the mortals have a point). I've seen people say with a straight face that Dresden is a psychopath even though many of his actions (even in the days he was more sexist) were well meaning.

    We all do this; It's like people ignoring that a major point of Weiss's story is learning to face her bigotry and still act like she's evil (compare Flay Allster from Gundam Seed; while EARLY Flay is a horrible person it's also made very clear that she DOES genuinely fall in love with the man she seduces, and this, combined with her spending time as a pow and observing the other side helps her grow more empathy and overcome her bigotry to the point that when she sees a mass murder of the people she originally despised occur she breaks down in tears of disgust and horror). However, fans like to IGNORE the later part of Flay's development and paint her as being horrible even at the end (by which point she's become far more compassionate and sympathetic).
     
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    Claudette Savagely said:
    Oh dear, old chap.

    What I'm saying is this.

    Why does looking like a mobster mean you are a mobster who must be beaten right now without provocation?

    Why does beating someone who looks like a mobster and quite likely is a mobster place said beating beyond moral considerations?

    Why do visual totems trump thinking about depicted events?

    These are the points of mine that are of any moment; address them if you want idk

    Also
    >grabbing someone's genitals can't be both sexual and threatening

    What is sexual violence for 500, Alex?
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    Its a show so yes, because those visual cues and narrative build up decisions make that accurate.

    Can't? So you agree?

    Squirtodyle said:
    If Junior had been a woman and Yang grabbed this hypothetical female Junior by the breasts and squeezed hard enough to hurt, would that be considered sexual assault?
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    It would have been equally uncomfortable,perhaps a tad more due to real world cultural stuff, but not, it would functional be the same as bending back a finger or twisting someone's arm behind their back.

    Vindictus said:
    The issue is not whether or not the people at the bar hit some criteria of 'being bad' or not.

    The issue is why violence ensued.

    Was it instigated by the mobsters? Well, no. It was instigated by Yang. Then, after the mobsters de-escalated, she re-escalated it right back up.

    Well, surely she had some reason for initiating violence? Uh.. Well, again, no. She didn't ask for information, get rebuffed, then turn to intimidation; She started off with an unprovoked assault and demand for information, immediately got the information, and then turned around and escalated further- For no more apparent reason than because she enjoyed the violence.

    Like, I'm surprised that I have to explain that there are contextual differences between how people interpret 'Roughing up thugs to stop them from shooting a shopkeeper,' 'Roughing up thugs to gather information,' and 'Roughing up thugs because you think it's fun.'
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    Again, Junior said "You'll pay for that" taking him down, and also weakening a local gang, was a good/pragmatic decision.

    Richardson said:
    Controversial Opinion Time:

    It is entirely possible for 'someone on the side of good' to go too far. Actions are not just a binary good/evil. However, it is entirely possible to go too far. Yang getting into a fight is tolerable and acceptable by the genre conventions, Yang sexually harassing Junior by literally twisting his balls was not when she had other means of persuasion.

    Let's not kid ourselves, before Yang's future issues we're violently and permenantly dis-armed, she was on track to become someone in the same general vein of her mother, the raider scumbag chief. Raven didn't start out as a darwinist murderous scumbag either, Tai once found her to be someone outstanding enough to bang like the fourth of July. But Yang has changed. Perhaps not enough, perhaps more than we think. However, it is entirely possible to look at the Yellow Trailer and say, "What a bitch" while looking at end of Vol. 5 Yang and see someone who has committed to being a good guy, and working towards unfucking herself after getting a concentrated dose of Total Perspective Vortex and seeing her mother for the violent bitch she truly is.
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    How?! We see her do something like this once to a mobster and never again, the rest of the time she's calling Ruby the bees knees and planning parties and being there for her friends and saving people.

    Also, Raven came from a background of being a social Darwinist bandit and ran back there once things got too real, Yang comes from a background of having to raise her own sister because one mum left, another died, her uncle is a drunk who is barely there and her dad was either shut down or working.

    There is no comparison between them.
     
    Again, those guys should sign up for the Mental Olympics, what with all the acrobatics they are doing...

    For starters, that Yang acted like a psychopath is completely false. If she had gotten on the crowd and began firing on non-involved civilians I could see the point being made, but there's a far cry from that to keeping it with the mobsters that are clearly involved.

    And yes, they are mobsters, and the trailer goes out of it's way to clue you that way. From the weapons, to the way they act around Yang before she even approaches Junior, the "they say you know everything" line being an identifier of an underground ring leader common in media and the way they are dressed, all of these are common tropes that are meant to show something to the audience without telling them.

    That's not really subtle, and someone not being able to grasp what it means when watching it makes me thing that either they haven't interacted with much fiction at all or that they are being disingenuous and not wanting to see what's presented to them for whatever reason.

    Now, assuming it's the first one and the person had a brain fart, let's tackle the whole "in a vacuum" argument, which in on itself is kind of hypocritical.

    First, let's assume the show got cancelled after the Yellow trailer and that's all we had to judge from: what in the three other trailers told you this world operated in anything other than anime logic?! Was it Red Riding Hood gutting werewolves with a massive scythe, Snow White the Dark Souls character or Beauty the Ninja and her friend Chuuni Samurai the Beast fighting Giant Robotic Spiders?

    From the get-go, it's made clear that grievous harm and serious consequences just aren't results that are gonna be common in the series without some considerable narrative weight firepower.

    Saying that Yang went there trying to seriously damage the mobsters ignores that this is a world where being punched through a metal wall by a Giant Robotic Spider isn't a death sentence.

    And that's disregarding what we later learn about Aura, which in my opinion should put the final nail in the coffin to that argument.

    If all that doesn't make the context of the scene clear, that the trailers before shows us that we aren't supposed to think that anyone is seriously getting harmed answer, that these people are criminals and that no, Yang isn't maiming people for the hell of it, I want you to answer me this:

    If Yang is such a madwoman, why does she never act like one?

    Let's see, in Volume 1 she only gets to fight an Ursa and the Nevermore, in Volume 2 she fights the Paladin and the White Fang on the train and in Volume 3 she has three fights in the tournament, one of them being against Mercury.

    The rest of the time we see her? She's either supporting her sister and encouraging her to make friends, stopping Blake from breaking down and convincing Weiss to not be a racist asshole.

    Yeah, a true paragon of insanity, right there.
     
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    Do ya'll think... maybe this conversation is getting a bit too heated?

    Like, I'm not siding with anyone here, but maybe we'd all benefit if everyone took a step back from this?
     
    Barnaby said:
    Do ya'll think... maybe this conversation is getting a bit too heated?

    Like, I'm not siding with anyone here, but maybe we'd all benefit if everyone took a step back from this?
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    As someone who has been basically sitting on the sidelines, it has seemed to be getting a bit too heated.

    Is there anything else we all could discuss to perhaps shift topics?
     
    Crack theory, but Cardin is secretly a good guy. His bullying wasn't actually that- if you saw it from someone else's perspective, you'd see his actions in a whole new light.

    Like, if I weren't 99% sure he and his team were dead, I think it'd be fun to see him next season, doing general Chad stuff.
     
    Barnaby said:
    Like, if I weren't 99% sure he and his team were dead, I think it'd be fun to see him next season, doing general Chad stuff.
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    Why would you think he was dead? Last that I recall seeing of him was during the Fall of Beacon, and he seemed to be doing just fine. And you just know they were probably the first ones onto the evacuation ships, shoving small children and pregnant women out of the way. :p
     
    The Narrator said:
    Why would you think he was dead? Last that I recall seeing of him was during the Fall of Beacon, and he seemed to be doing just fine. And you just know they were probably the first ones onto the evacuation ships, shoving small children and pregnant women out of the way. :p
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    Watson says it was because their weakness and fear made them more interesting targets, but Doyle is telling me it's because M&K have been trying to remove some of the bloat in the cast list built up from the previous seasons.
     
    Barnaby said:
    Watson says it was because their weakness and fear made them more interesting targets, but Doyle is telling me it's because M&K have been trying to remove some of the bloat in the cast list built up from the previous seasons.
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    No need to kill them to take them off the cast list. Now that the school is gone there's no reason why the audience would ever expect to see them again. Much like Team CFVY, the teachers, the rest of Sun's team, all of the teams from the tournament... pretty much very character from Beacon except for Team RWBY and the survivors of Team JNPR has left the story, but the only ones who did so because they were dead are Penny and Pyrrha. Everyone else has just gone their separate ways.

    'Tis possible that we'll see Team CRDL again as hired muscle for some bad guy down the line. Or that we'll just never see them again, because they have no involvement in what our heroes are doing. Neither would really be surprising.
     
    Small side thing about the Yellow Trailer. The junk-grab was totally supposed to make you (the viewer) uncomfortable. Yang is brash and loud and doesn't give a shit what you think. That's the character they were going for. So maybe there isn't any justification for her questionable antics. The situation is actually a bit self-explanatory. She asked for info. He told her he didn't have it. She, through what she'd heard about him, believed he was full of it and decided to be forceful in getting the information. She clearly didn't mind getting in a fight. She also didn't take any of them seriously, hence kiss-and-make-up that kinda implies she's got a weird sense of humor. Psycho seems like a strong word, but they're also not trying to portray her as a pinnacle of virtue. Context doesn't dismiss the psycho argument, it explains why that's not what's being implied.

    In my opinion, there's a perspective where you can come to the Pyschopath!Yang conclusion. Maybe it's focusing on certain character aspects to the point of ignoring other tropes and cues in the media. I more suspect that it's a perspective where you watch ANY SHOW and you're not interested in the setting- you're just pushing a narrative for some reason. Granted, you can totally have some interesting dialogue around said narrative, but clearly there's a different thread for that, which some people are advertising. Cool. There's no obligation for someone to go from this thread to that one, however. Especially if some people who did not initiate the topic consider the idea to be disingenuous from the start.


    Sorry @Barnaby brought it up again.


    Also speaking of trailers, I got the physical manga finally- it's a pretty good re-do of the trailers narratively speaking. I'm intentionally not using it in the above topic of course, but it did get me thinking that given the narrative dissonance between the original trailers and the series proper, it'd be cool if they re-visited them at some point. Maybe on the 10-year anniversary or something if the show is still going.
     
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    Barnaby said:
    Watson says it was because their weakness and fear made them more interesting targets, but Doyle is telling me it's because M&K have been trying to remove some of the bloat in the cast list built up from the previous seasons.
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    Counterpoint: RWBY Chibi season 3 has a skit where Cardin is attempting to apply for work as one of Cinder's minions. So, we'll probably see Karen- sorry, Cardin- again at some point.
     
    Since the next Volume is apparently going to Atlas, I'd really like it if they could actually delve into the nature of the Schnee Dust Company's wrongdoing in general and the anti-faunus discrimination in particular. Our heroes have spent a lot of time dealing with the White Fang, it would be nice to see the other side of the conflict for a change.

    On that subject, way back in Volume 1, Weiss talked about family or board members being killed or disappearing and the White Fang being responsible, but in all the interactions with the White Fang since there there hasn't been any mention of assassinations or abductions. What if they were false flag operations? What if Jacques Schnee were taking out rivals and blaming it on the White Fang?
     
    The Narrator said:
    Since the next Volume is apparently going to Atlas, I'd really like it if they could actually delve into the nature of the Schnee Dust Company's wrongdoing in general and the anti-faunus discrimination in particular. Our heroes have spent a lot of time dealing with the White Fang, it would be nice to see the other side of the conflict for a change.

    On that subject, way back in Volume 1, Weiss talked about family or board members being killed or disappearing and the White Fang being responsible, but in all the interactions with the White Fang since there there hasn't been any mention of assassinations or abductions. What if they were false flag operations? What if Jacques Schnee were taking out rivals and blaming it on the White Fang?
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    Well since the Fang seems fairly decentralized and the cell leaders apparently have vast freedoms in how they operate it is just as likely that the leaders of the Atlas WF were far more militant than anyone else given the nature of Atlas society.
     
    The Narrator said:
    Since the next Volume is apparently going to Atlas, I'd really like it if they could actually delve into the nature of the Schnee Dust Company's wrongdoing in general and the anti-faunus discrimination in particular. Our heroes have spent a lot of time dealing with the White Fang, it would be nice to see the other side of the conflict for a change.

    On that subject, way back in Volume 1, Weiss talked about family or board members being killed or disappearing and the White Fang being responsible, but in all the interactions with the White Fang since there there hasn't been any mention of assassinations or abductions. What if they were false flag operations? What if Jacques Schnee were taking out rivals and blaming it on the White Fang?
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    I'd love this to be honest and I also feel it could be a very natural and intriguing (If done well) expansion on Blake's arc and views on the WF. She's cut out the worst the WF can offer in Adam, but now she's gotten full peaceful, well what's she gonna do now when faced with the same issues her father and Sienna were five years ago that compelled the change in leadership and strategy? How is facing that going to make her feel, what will she consider ETC. Could be quite interesting, especially if Ilia is there as well, let alone her team.
     
    Zam said:
    I'd love this to be honest and I also feel it could be a very natural and intriguing (If done well) expansion on Blake's arc and views on the WF. She's cut out the worst the WF can offer in Adam, but now she's gotten full peaceful, well what's she gonna do now when faced with the same issues her father and Sienna were five years ago that compelled the change in leadership and strategy? How is facing that going to make her feel, what will she consider ETC. Could be quite interesting, especially if Ilia is there as well, let alone her team.
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    And also consider that we're going back to Weiss' homeland, so unless Miles and Kerry have completely stopped giving a damn about character arcs, it's presumably going to involve her facing her father and finally breaking his hold over her. Thematically, you would think that would involve her taking a hard look at his crimes. Team RWBY has members who came from both sides of this conflict. Blake's faced her guilt over the past, so it should be Weiss' turn to do the same. Plus, we've had five frickin' volumes of fighting the White Fang, so it would be nice to change it up.
     
    Zam said:
    I'd love this to be honest and I also feel it could be a very natural and intriguing (If done well) expansion on Blake's arc and views on the WF. She's cut out the worst the WF can offer in Adam, but now she's gotten full peaceful, well what's she gonna do now when faced with the same issues her father and Sienna were five years ago that compelled the change in leadership and strategy? How is facing that going to make her feel, what will she consider ETC. Could be quite interesting, especially if Ilia is there as well, let alone her team.
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    The Narrator said:
    And also consider that we're going back to Weiss' homeland, so unless Miles and Kerry have completely stopped giving a damn about character arcs, it's presumably going to involve her facing her father and finally breaking his hold over her. Thematically, you would think that would involve her taking a hard look at his crimes. Team RWBY has members who came from both sides of this conflict. Blake's faced her guilt over the past, so it should be Weiss' turn to do the same. Plus, we've had five frickin' volumes of fighting the White Fang, so it would be nice to change it up.
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    Oh we're definitively changing things up. Its no coincidence that the writers went so far out of their way to absolutely destroy Adam's hold on the White Fang, even having Ilia make a speech where she points out that nobody is going to follow him after this. Conflict from the White Fang in the future will almost certainly only come from Adam and maybe a few lone wolf radicals (I could see the Lieutenant staying on Team Salem to get a shot at the Schnees for example) instead of the organization as a whole being a enemy. By this point the heroes have grown past that anyway, terrorists scrounging up whatever gear and fighters they can from the bottom of a barrel just isn't a big threat. Now that the team has leveled up it makes sense to have them start fighting the top dogs of the world (Atlas, SDC, Salem's enforcers, ancient Grimm, etc) instead of underdogs like the White Fang or Torchwick. And possibly (and hopefully) more systematic issues that aren't so easy to resolve such as racism and economic disparity.
     
    So RT did an AMA with Miles, Kerry, and Paula. Mostly basic stuff, but we do now finally have an answer about if Jaune is a self-insert character for Miles.

    On Jaune being Miles' self insert character Kerry said: "In the first few Volumes, if Jaune was in a scene it was almost always because either Monty or myself wanted him in a scene. From the very beginning, Monty was very big on having that archetype of character be fairly prominent in the show. Miles has always been incredibly hesitant to insert Jaune into scenes, to the point where he's voiced before that he wishes sometimes that he didn't voice him. So, if people want to be mad at someone for Jaune being in scenes, take it out on Monty and I :p"


    Milles added to that: "Yeahhh, more or less what Kerry said. I won't lie and say that I didn't have fun getting to do lines in the booth. It's always a pleasure to get to do more acting, especially if it's a character that gets to do more dramatic scenes. But yeah, the accusations that Jaune was a "self-insert" really started to get to me over the years, to the point where I began actively avoiding writing scenes that had him in it. Now if I was voicing someone like Torchwick or Watts. Bro. Fuckin' rename the show "Teenagers Get their Butts Kicked by Awesome Badguys: The Roman Torchwick Hour of Villainy - Starring, Written, and Directed by Miles 'Loves Playing Villains' Luna""
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    [Info] CRWBY AMA w/ Miles Luna, Kerry Shawcross, and Paula Decanini summary
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    • VolantRedX said:
    So RT did an AMA with Miles, Kerry, and Paula. Mostly basic stuff, but we do now finally have an answer about if Jaune is a self-insert character for Miles.
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    If you're linking that part from the AMA, might as well link this tumblr page which had a full list of all the stuff asked and answered:

     
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