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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Triggerhappy said:
    Considering the objective of Ozpin's conspiracy is to keep the maiden's out of the eye of history it could simply be that they don't have much opportunity to develop their fighting abilities or much need to for that matter.

    Which may be part of why Pyrra was put forward as a candidate to receive Ambers powers. Knowing that somebody was gunning for the maidens, ensuring the next Fall Maiden could at least defend herself was probably regarded as prudent.

    Ultimately the point of each maiden may be as much or more to keep their powers out of undeserving hands as to use them in a time of need.
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    All possible
    especially when you kick in the fact there appears to be another Cabal who Cinder is working for based on some things she says in her Flashback episode.

    It does make me wonder what the maidens are meant for in the first place. Sure we have seen they have power but that is it nothing else in comparsion to things we saw from Weiss for example what Amber does isnt all that impressive really. The only interesting part is that Amber doesnt need dust unlike weiss.
    There really needs to be something MORE to them then just power because otherwise they are just an oddity.
     
    EnderofWorlds said:
    Lolwut?

    Things have been building up to this for the entire season, with hints here and there and really taking off with the Yang vs. Mercury fight. I'm not sure how you can call this 'abrupt' when practically every other episode references the fact that there's shit going down and reaching a boiling point soon, combined with jump cuts to the Grimm moving ever onwards towards Vale.
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    As always, people fail to actually read my posts through in order to try and score points or something.

    I'm not saying I have issues with shit going down. I'm saying that the shit won't stop. It just goes from bad to worse to even worse to shit worse and so on. I mean, give us some fight banter or something. Where did the Grimm dragon come from? Why is Coco's gun suddenly ineffective? Why are the Grimm not attacking the White Fang, too. How did the WF get Grimm on the airships without them killing everyone on board?

    While it seems like everyone is flipping out about every single thing that is happening, about half of what's going on makes me scratch my head in confusion instead of gasp in shock, because I'm wondering what is up with the writers.
     
    revanninja said:
    It does make me wonder what the maidens are meant for in the first place. Sure we have seen they have power but that is it nothing else in comparsion to things we saw from Weiss for example what Amber does isnt all that impressive really. The only interesting part is that Amber doesnt need dust unlike weiss.
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    It goes hand in hand, in theory at least, with keeping their power from interfering with the world. Training them to release their full power is only tempting them to use that power, or allow themselves to be used by someone with the right insight and charisma.

    The way I see it, the maiden powers are not supposed to be a blessing to their wielder. They are, more often then not, a curse regardless of their potential for good, possibly even their necessity.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I'm not saying I have issues with shit going down. I'm saying that the shit won't stop. It just goes from bad to worse to even worse to shit worse and so on. I mean, give us some fight banter or something. Where did the Grimm dragon come from? Why is Coco's gun suddenly ineffective? Why are the Grimm not attacking the White Fang, too. How did the WF get Grimm on the airships without them killing everyone on board?
    .
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    Grim dragon was part of the Hillside ala Attack on titan Walls. Its unknown HOW it got there but since we know they are basically Ageless it probably fell asleep and just woke from its nape after X years.
    Coco's gun isnt ineffective against Grim its ineffective against Atals Paladins very much a big difference there.
    The grim ARE attacking White Fang as shown when they crashed the bull carrying them. The white fang are dropping them and running. They arent sticking around with the grim. As for how they got them on board same way Port got that grim into class they subdued them and put them into the Bulls before they woke up.

    Most of the questions you are asking have been answered earlier in the series example being the captured grim AKA Edgar its just coming together now is all.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I distinctly recall the minigun doing jack and shit against Griffons.
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    Coco's minigun was ineffective against an MP Atlesian Paladin, the prototypes of which required team attacks (RWBY and Ublek + Zwei) to defeat. The one she and the rest of her team was fighting was a full spec combat model.

    I don't remember Coco's gun being any less effective against Grimm in the previous episodes. We haven't actually seen its effect on the Grimm this season come to think of it. She may just not have been given an opportunity to bifurcate a whole swarm at once or she may be conserving her ammo, something that wouldn't have been as much of a concern during the tournament or last seasons battle to close a much smaller breach.

    Hammerspace or not her bullets have to run out eventually.
     
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    Zam said:
    The Griffons were also built up as so dangerous that the professors did not want a collection of some of their best students helping them fight them and instead told them to run.
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    I don't think that's exactly why they told them to bolt. Ruby took one out with her Scythe and one without. They're powerful, but not that powerful.

    Rather they wanted their students to get spread out and helping where they could rather than staying clustered in the probably indefensible stadium that was attracting heaps of Grimm.
     
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    Triggerhappy said:
    I don't remember Coco's gun being any less effective against Grimm in the previous episodes. We haven't actually seen its effect on the Grimm this season. She may just not have been given an opportunity to bifurcate a whole swarm at once or she may be conserving her ammo.
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    We saw Coco open up on a Griffon during one of the battles, when it was just sort of panning through the group, and the Griffon did indeed tank it.

    Given that Griffons have basically tanked everything bar Crescent Rose, though, that probably says more about Griffons than it does about Coco.
     
    Triggerhappy said:
    I don't think that's exactly why they told them to bolt. Ruby took one out with her Sythe and one without. They're powerful, but not that powerful.

    Rather they wanted their students to get spread out and helping where they could rather than staying clustered in the probably indefensible stadium that was attracting heaps of Grimm.
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    In all fairness though Ruby looked to be panting and worn out for a bit after fighting the Griffon and the second one, I assume you mean the big one, she less defeated and more redirected with a surprise attack and then fled from as it started exploding.

    You do raise a fair point, though by the same token Oobleck's dialogue about wanting his students to live to see it really didn't feel like telling them to go fight elsewhere to me.
     
    RadioactiveSpoon said:
    We saw Coco open up on a Griffon during one of the battles, when it was just sort of panning through the group, and the Griffon did indeed tank it.

    Given that Griffons have basically tanked everything bar Crescent Rose, though, that probably says more about Griffons than it does about Coco.
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    Considering that her handbag manages to bifurcate giant Nevermores I'm inclined to agree.
     
    Zam said:
    You do raise a fair point, though by the same token Oobleck's dialogue about wanting his students to live to see it really didn't feel like telling them to go fight elsewhere to me.
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    Think of it this way. A commander in a desperate fight may tell some of his soldiers to retreat from a position before it is overrun. This doesn't mean he's telling them to run away without reservation because they'll just be chased down and killed. He's telling them to go assume a more defensible position.
     
    Triggerhappy said:
    Think of it this way. A commander in a desperate fight may tell some of his soldiers to retreat from a defensive position before it is overrun. This doesn't mean he's telling them to run away. He's telling them to go assume a new more survivable defensive position.
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    Even then that still paints the griffons as tough enemies which was my main point, though I feel if Oobleck had intended it to be read that way he'd have just told them to go fight elsewhere and to leave the stadium to them, but that's just me. Sorry if this seems rude.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    As always, people fail to actually read my posts through in order to try and score points or something.

    I'm not saying I have issues with shit going down. I'm saying that the shit won't stop. It just goes from bad to worse to even worse to shit worse and so on. I mean, give us some fight banter or something. Where did the Grimm dragon come from? Why is Coco's gun suddenly ineffective? Why are the Grimm not attacking the White Fang, too. How did the WF get Grimm on the airships without them killing everyone on board?

    While it seems like everyone is flipping out about every single thing that is happening, about half of what's going on makes me scratch my head in confusion instead of gasp in shock, because I'm wondering what is up with the writers.
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    Of course it won't stop, because if it did it'd just be another Breach and that'd defeat the whole tone and purpose of the season. This is when the kid gloves come off, when things get serious and the actual threat that the heroes must face reveals itself and just how vile and depraved it truly is. The writers know this because this is what they're aiming for. Things started off on a high point with season 1, maintained it with season 2 with a hint of a decline near the tail-end, and is finally shooting downwards as is proper for season 3. The last episode will, most likely, have something to renew hope to line up nicely with a proper recovery Season 4 followed by the next several seasons being a journey/quest/adventure/what-say-you for beating the bad guys and foiling their evil plot.

    White Fang herding Grimm is probably's Cinder's doing, given her beetle and that clear connection to the Grimm, and even then it's not like they have direct control; it's more like they just threw them into dropships and hoped for the best. And it's working because populace chaos > whatever piddly negative emotions the mooks produce. Coco's gun not being as effective is a visual storytelling effect saying that this is nowhere near the Breach in terms of scale, it's infinitely worse; the Grimm have come in hordes, and this time they're packing quality along with no easy chokepoint to close up to save the day. Grimm Dragon's also probably a key factor in Mountain Glenn's failure; if the fucker's sweating and creating Grimm just by existing, then any civilization built near it is blatantly fucked.

    I'm all for quips, banter, and sarcastic and witty commentary, but there's a time and place for it. And these last several episodes are definitely not the time for it. Not unless they want to undersell the tone they're very clearly trying to get across here. It'd be like if Luke made a joke after the Darth Vader reveal; it'd completely destroy the entire tone of the scene and ruin the mood it's trying to get across: that of a shocking, earth-shattering revelation that throws everything the hero knows over his head, as well as having him be easily bested by the villain. Things are grim, everything's thrown into chaos, and things look bleak.

    ...Which makes it all the more better when the heroes make it clear that they're not going to let this defeat keep them down, they're not going to go gently into that good night, and they most certainly will do their damned best to rise up, get better and stronger, and stop the villains to save the day. It's pretty basic storytelling, really.

    RWBY has it's fair share of problems (Maidens out of nowhere, a short runtime kicking it's ass, etc.) but I'm not sure how this is one of them, save for under a subjective and personal perspective. Because from a technical standpoint it's something that's been done fuck knows how many times in countless other stories, with similar results.

    Triggerhappy said:
    Considering that her handbag manages to bifurcate giant Nevermores I'm inclined to agree.
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    Meh, Nevermores are scrub-tier; they're normally the size of an actual raven or crow and the giant ones clearly are just the regular ones upscaled rather than being older and stronger like an Alpha Beowolf.
     
    Zam said:
    Even then that still paints the griffons as tough enemies which was my main point, though I feel if Oobleck had intended it to be read that way he'd have just told them to go fight elsewhere and to leave the stadium to them, but that's just me. Sorry if this seems rude.
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    I just don't see it. They're half trained hunstmen. But half trained hunstmen are still hunstmen expected to take on many times their number of Grimm. And their Kingdom is on the line. Oobleck of all people has to know 'run and hide' is not an order that will be obeyed.

    The Stadium was a fight where his students would be more a concern than a help. I think he fully knows they're going to be joining the fight elsewhere.
     
    EnderofWorlds said:
    Meh, Nevermores are scrub-tier; they're normally the size of an actual raven or crow and the giant ones clearly are just the regular ones upscaled rather than being older and stronger like an Alpha Beowolf.
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    Mind backing that up?

    Because the one in the first season had no problem with Yang unloading everything she had right down its throat. And more or less ignored everything team RWBY could hit it with until Ruby pulled an inverted guillotine.

    Sure it was their first fight and they've grown since then but GNs aren't exactly 'scrub' tier when it takes four novice huntsmen giving their all with a crazy plan to bring down just one.
     
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    Triggerhappy said:
    Mind backing that up? Because the one in the first season had no problem with Yang unloading everything she had right down its throat. And more or less ignored everything team RWBY could hit it with until Ruby pulled an inverted guillotine.

    Sure it was there first fight and they've grown since then. But GNs aren't exactly 'scrub' tier.
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    And the latest one was fended of by Ruby using Penny's sword followed by a rocket locker barrage. Excuse me for thinking that it's not exactly the creme of the crop in comparison to some of the other Grimm we've been shown. Especially the griffons, which have their own giant variant and greatly outclass the Nevermore.
     
    EnderofWorlds said:
    And the latest one was fended of by Ruby using Penny's sword followed by a rocket locker barrage. Excuse me for thinking that it's not exactly the creme of the crop in comparison to some of the other Grimm we've been shown. Especially the griffons, which have their own giant variant and greatly outclass the Nevermore.
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    Neither of which actually killed it mind.

    More startled and stunned respectively.

    It was then taken down by a three way kill.

    Edit : I'm not saying the gryphons aren't unusually tough. I just doubt the Giant Nevermores are unusually weak.
     
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    Triggerhappy said:
    Neither of which actually killed it mind.

    More startled and stunned respectively.
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    It was still pretty casually put down, all things considered, and the best showing it's ever had was during initiation vs. four first year students. The next time we see them they get mowed down by older, more experienced students with relative ease and then the time after that one of the first year students from the first Nevermore fight manages to fend it off for a bit with a weapon she's not specialized or particularly skilled in; followed by a rocket launcher barrage and a group kill to put it out of its misery.

    So yeah, I'm all for thinking that Nevermores are 'common' grimm vs Griffons 'uncommon' and the Dragon's 'rare'. Also fits with how they're the second most common grimm we've seen in the series so far.
     
    Triggerhappy said:
    I just don't see it. They're half trained hunstmen. But half trained hunstmen are still hunstmen expected to take on many times their number of Grimm. And their Kingdom is on the line. Oobleck of all people has to know 'run and hide' is not an order that will be obeyed.

    The Stadium was a fight where his students would be more a concern than a help. I think he fully knows they're going to be joining the fight elsewhere.
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    While fair points, even Ironwood told them he wouldn't fault them if they fled.

    Like I said I was mostly just trying to say the Griffons are meant to be a 'holy crap' enemy at least by student standards, Ruby took one out but looked very tired afterwards and is using one of the 'most dangerous weapons' as well.

    Triggerhappy said:
    Neither of which actually killed it mind.

    More startled and stunned respectively.

    Edit : I'm not saying the gryphons aren't unusually tough. I just doubt the Giant Nevermores are unusually weak.
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    I think its just a case of comparisons, in the Breach Coco took out several large Nevermore with ease but is unloading her bullets onto one and it didn't die immediately and there are much bigger Griffons. Though yeah the big ones probably aren't weak all things considered.
     
    EnderofWorlds said:
    It was still pretty casually put down, all things considered, and the best showing it's ever had was during initiation vs. four first year students. The next time we see them they get mowed down by older, more experienced students with relative ease and then the time after that one of the first year students from the first Nevermore fight manages to fend it off for a bit with a weapon she's not specialized or particularly skilled in; followed by a rocket launcher barrage and a group kill to put it out of its misery.
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    Again, considering how hard they put it down I think that speaks volumes for how little they wanted to give it even a chance to recover.

    Not to mention the lockers seem to have hit it in a powered dive. So a dozen 100+ kilogram projectiles hitting at 200+ kph while the Nevermore was caught completely by surprise. It didn't even go down to the first half dozen.
     
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    Honestly, there's just too much stuff in this thread for me to read through, so I'm going to just skip through the thread and hope it hasn't been mentioned yet. Frankly, I don't like the more recent episodes. I like parts of it, such as Yang being injured (though i'll agree that it's irritating how often Yang gets beaten down) and the Roman speech. The only reason i'm happy with that is because Roman isn't dead. I mean, seriously. Anyway, I just don't like the overall tone of it.

    My first problem is the sudden ALL THE CHARACTERS that occurs. Okay, there are a lot of them, but it's a case of too many cooks in the kitchen for me. They're basically a bunch of students running around being completely inconsequential except for a few characters. Basically they take a bunch of named characters and demote them to mooks to showcase a few named characters. Also, Velvet bores me. So that battle was boring to sit through. Anyway, it felt like I could sit through everything that the defending students did and shrug because it meant almost nothing, except for Weiss getting the hang of summoning.

    Second is Cinder. Cinder isn't a good villain in my eyes. I don't feel like she's threatening, and whenever she does something damaging it happens because "lol l33t hax" or "I'm literally the best Hunter to ever Hunt". Plug a phone into a central computer? Boom, you now have an undetectable virus that can control everything from the contestant randomization to the speakers in the stadium. I wouldn't even mind that if it wasn't for the fact that it's legitimately undetectable apparently. And somehow any attempts to investigate what she might have done to the computer turned up nothing. And how this virus can basically plug into anything and take control in a matter of moments. If the technology-centric country of Atlas can't invest in half-decent cyber defense, how did the terrorists get an expert who can make a super-virus like that? And she can apparently dress up in a Haven Uniform and get a whole room assigned to her, when i'm willing to bet that none of the Haven kids recognize them. Yet they were in the class and on record as attending. Because Cinder is extraordinarily talented at manipulating people. And stealth, and fighting, and literally everything she does.

    Then there are the maidens, which everybody is essentially screaming in terror over. I heard someone on the thread mention that Cinder was only at half Maiden power and capable of scaring Adam, so how much must full Maiden Cinder be? Well, we've already seen a full powered Maiden before, and she was defeated by three hunters. THREE. HUNTERS. This is a nation with an entire academy devoted to training hunters who apparently fear a Maiden who can be taken down by three hunters, even if one is exceptionally skilled. Sure, maybe they're afraid of a rogue Maiden because of her individual power against say a squad of hunters, but they also should have access to the other three Maidens. Who actually probably should have been informed once they knew someone was targeting Maidens for their power, but that's not something I remember well enough to talk about. I feel like the power of the Maidens vary heavily based on what the writers want to happen. The villains are fighting a maiden? Her blows can be tanked and she can get beaten up if she engages three people at once. A villain has Maiden powers? She now possesses inconceivable power, and is a threat to the entire world or something.

    Essentially, Cinder's entire plan feels like Cinder wank. Adam is at a proper power level, he's the leader of the White Fang (at least on a regional level). He should be able to beat up two first year students. Roman is a very experienced criminal who just saw someone he has a personal connection/investment in get thrown off an airship, and running away is no longer an option. His combat ability makes sense, just like his cunning and achievements with his abilities. Cinder exists to no-sell literally everything that could be a defense. She is the primary villainous mary-sue.

    Of course, I'm probably wrong about a lot of this. So I would invite somebody to prove me wrong. Don't take my long rant as a sign of obtuseness, there is a fair sign where i'm unsure about if I interpreted it correctly.
     
    revanninja said:
    It does make me wonder what the maidens are meant for in the first place. Sure we have seen they have power but that is it nothing else in comparsion to things we saw from Weiss for example what Amber does isnt all that impressive really.
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    The fairy tale says that their powers were a gift from the hermit for being kind to him.
     
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