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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    Salem's Curse:

    View: https://www.tumblr.com/bestworstcase/733842108050538496/honestly-i-dont-even-read-it-is-a-curse-in-the
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    The thing is, realistically speaking, RWBY will in all probability find a way around Salem's curse.

    Be it by (somehow) getting Salem to accept the lesson the gods wanted her to learn, gaming the terms & conditions of her curse or (somehow) even getting the gods themselves to lift it.

    I am reasonably certain RWBY will accomplish this because I am reasonably certain that Salem will not survive beyond the end of the show.

    Taking Miss Just-Following-Orders (i.e. Emerald) on board is one thing. Desperate times call for desperate alliances.

    But Salem has committed altogether too many crimes against humanity for the story to give her a redemption - or at least not one that does not involve her final death.

    Just off the top of my head her rap sheet includes (but is not limited to) 1st degree murder(s), mass murder, multiple genocides, physical torture, psychological torture, Josef Mengele style magical experimentation (the Hound(s)), slavery (if you want to look at the Hound from a different angle) and likely much more besides.

    And she has been doing this kind of thing for all of recorded (Mark II) human history upon Remnant.

    She is so enduringly malignant, psychopathic, cruel and obsessive that she makes Adam look like a chilled out, decent person by comparison. And that (obviously) is saying something.


    Moreover her existence is no longer a secret to the peoples of Remnant.
    I highly doubt everyone is just going to forgive and forget the monster who has secretly blighted their lives and those of their fore bearers since time immemorial.

    Bumping Salem off stops RWBYs resolution from getting needlessly messy - and silly:

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By5hkB65Xkg
     
    Honestly, narratively speaking Ruby (and her friends) suffered as they did so they could come to understand Salem (and Cinder).
    "Strength will not bring victory."
    "But Balance is not two forces locked in never ending battle."

    Sure, trying to talk down a threat is not always going to work (Hi Adam) but it is the matter of trying, of reaching out and giving a chance that leads to change (Cordovin and Emerald).

    If anything I am pretty damn sure that the heroes will get Salem (and The Brothers and maybe even Cinder) to have a change of heart and back the fuck up and leave the world alone.
     
    Sworl said:
    The thing is, realistically speaking, RWBY will in all probability find a way around Salem's curse.
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    I feel as though you kind of missed the point regarding this post, namely that Salem's curse cannot be rule lawyered, it is literally just her having been physically transformed into something else that cannot die. Assuming the Brothers can even undo this, they are ascension are the only way to resolve it because its not a fae contract, its literally just "You were one thing now this thing" type deal.

    Also I find the "Salem has done too much evil" angle kinda ehh, when people advocate for the gods being reasoned with even though Darkness obliterated all life cos a few hundred people pissed him off and Light plans to kill every last mewling baby on the planet along with everyone else if they aren't up to his "Ethical standards" they are at a minimum as bad as Salem if not worse given they have significantly less reason to be so shit.
     
    Zam said:
    Also I find the "Salem has done too much evil" angle kinda ehh
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    At the same time, you have the genie having come out of the bottle with not just showing how Adam, Jacques, and Ironwood are irredeemable, but also having the V9 commentary outright say that Neo had done so much evil that she has to essentially kill herself and be a whole new person in some sort of twisted version of Logan's Run.

    Suddenly changing that narrative to say that Salem should change her mind is definitely some White Diamond shit, except somehow worse because Salem actually murdered people.
     
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    Psyga315 said:
    At the same time, you have the genie having come out of the bottle with not just showing how Adam, Jacques, and Ironwood are irredeemable, but also having the V9 commentary outright say that Neo had done so much evil that she has to essentially kill herself and be a whole new person in some sort of twisted version of Logan's Run.

    Suddenly changing that narrative to say that Salem should change her mind is definitely some White Diamond shit, except somehow worse because Salem actually murdered people.
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    Well I mean both of those are different circumstances. Also, I'm pretty sure the commentary was saying that she couldn't just leave with team RWBY because she did too much to them. Not because she was so evil. And of course the whole entire kill yourself and become a whole new person is not even necessarily what happens, as shown by Ruby leaving the tree as herself.

    Also, I'm pretty sure someone had a post earlier explaining how Jinn either lied or doesn't actually know everything.

    Along with that, no one actually said that Salem was going to be redeemed? Just either teaching the meaning of life and death to her(which might not even work), or getting her to back off. And honestly, I never really understood the whole entire idea that someone can't be redeemed. As long as they are trying and it makes sense, then to me they shouldn't just be locked up or killed. Its just that people aren't required to forgive and forget.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    showing how Adam, Jacques, and Ironwood are irredeemable
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    Adam had Bumblebee constantly offering him an out and only killing him in a desperate bid to save their own lives, Ironwood was put into custody and killed by atlas falling, Jacques was put into custody and was killed by ironwood, both were planned to be evacuated with the rest of atlas.
     
    Zam said:
    Assuming the Brothers can even undo this
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    Why wouldn't Light be able to undo the curse when he was the one who dunked her in the water in the first place?
    We have seen them create, we have seen them destroy, we have seen them hit the undo button both ways, so I am pretty sure they can turn off the Ascension Blocker.

    Psyga315 said:
    At the same time, you have the genie having come out of the bottle with not just showing how Adam, Jacques, and Ironwood are irredeemable, but also having the V9 commentary outright say that Neo had done so much evil that she has to essentially kill herself and be a whole new person in some sort of twisted version of Logan's Run.

    Suddenly changing that narrative to say that Salem should change her mind is definitely some White Diamond shit, except somehow worse because Salem actually murdered people.
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    Not even sure what you are getting at, Psy.
    Adam and Ironwood died because they didn't back off and chill the fuck out. Adam was dead set on revenge and was given many chances to just leave. He did not take them and died for it. Ironwood was so locked in his head that he was the hero and that he knew the right course that he ended up alienating himself and it got him killed by the weight of the very "world" he tried to hold up.
    Meanwhile Jac was a snake that also showed no signs of even thinking about changing his ways, but he was also just uncerimoniously vaporized by Ironwood.

    Meanwhile Neo had a realization about stuff and willingly chose to step aside and start on a path of change.
    There is also Emerald who chose to change sides and we have seen her willingly help, so she is already on the path of change.

    For Salem at bare minimum she'd need to back off and not aim her spite and anger at humanity. At best it would mean her letting go of both Ozma and her grudges. In a sense her connection to The Brothers and to Oz (her two main grudes) are what have teathered her in this immortality curse. So if there is no Call On The Gods, then all RWBY need to do is find a way to convince Salem to back off and stop fucking with humanity. If there is a Call, than RWBY needs to convince both Salem AND The Brothers to piss off and put grudges aside.
     
    PrismatiChampion said:
    Along with that, no one actually said that Salem was going to be redeemed? Just either teaching the meaning of life and death to her(which might not even work), or getting her to back off. And honestly, I never really understood the whole entire idea that someone can't be redeemed. As long as they are trying and it makes sense, then to me they shouldn't just be locked up or killed. Its just that people aren't required to forgive and forget.
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    There was an interesting discussion on a Discord I m on recently regarding the concept of redemtpion and I think a lot of people struggle with the concept, so I'd say this is my four tiered breakdown on states that people call redemption but where only one of them is such:

    Opt out: This is what you mention and its basically the villain just packing it in and leaving what they do after is anyone's guess.
    Atone/atonement: This is what a lot of people call redemption but is actually just the action of making amends for a wrong or injury.
    Switch Sides: This is what a lot of people call redemption but it can be entirely unrelated to morality or atonement, even if it often involves it.
    Redemption means: The action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil. Which is to say, it is an absolution given by external means, basically what Zuko got with the group hug ETC.

    The thing is, the first three can also be narratively satisfying in their own.

    A villain does not need to become heroic or atone, they can just peace out like Nox did when he realized his plan could never succeed and everything he did was pointless. A villain can also just stop fighting the heroes and go on to do good stuff without needing to join the heroes or have the narrative or anyone in universe say "Yes, you are a good person now, you made up for the bad stuff." Plus a villain can switch sides for entirely selfish reasons and maybe not even change at the end of the story, such as the Legion of Doom in Justice League Unlimited.

    Pugman said:
    Why wouldn't Light be able to undo the curse when he was the one who dunked her in the water in the first place?
    We have seen them create, we have seen them destroy, we have seen them hit the undo button both ways, so I am pretty sure they can turn off the Ascension Blocker.
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    Mostly cos we don't know the exact limits of specifications of their powers beyond "Strong".
    Salem was made into a being of infinite life, then jumped into the pools of darkness and they couldn't destroy her but did mutate her, meaning her nature and curse may have changed in such a way Light cannot strictly do anything about it. There's also theories that the pools of darkness and light either might not have been created by them or had grown beyond their direct influence. Plus, before we jump on the idea the brothers cannot create something more than them, I'd note Jinn is more aware of the world around her than they are, so they can create stuff smarter and more omnipresent than themselves. Basically, until the gods do it, I don't trust that they can do something, especially given they, especially Light are not above lying about their nature and origins if it suits them.

    Um, pretty sure Remnants dead don't ascend, like at all, the brothers but especially Light don't seem to appreciate the concept or utilize it in anyway shape or form. Salem being converted into a being of infinite life was not an ascension blocker, even if she died she would not ascend, she'd likely end up in whatever state Ozma was before Light plucked him out of it, which given Ozma seems unaware potentially millions of years have passed is likely just cold storage.
     
    Yangs response to being in the same room as Salem was to punch her in the tits with explosives, then when helpless, draw the witches attention to her via calling her out as a little bitch, when she could have stayed silent and let Emerald take the wrath. Tha ain't mere bravado.
     
    Zam said:
    I feel as though you kind of missed the point regarding this post, namely that Salem's curse cannot be rule lawyered, it is literally just her having been physically transformed into something else that cannot die. Assuming the Brothers can even undo this, they are ascension are the only way to resolve it because its not a fae contract, its literally just "You were one thing now this thing" type deal.
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    Did the shows creators say it could not be rule-lawyered?

    Because honestly the nature of her curse is kind of vague; possibly intentionally or possibly as a result of the limited run time.

    As far as I can tell, it is as valid to say that the curse can be rule-lawyered as it is to say that it cannot.

    Zam said:
    Also I find the "Salem has done too much evil" angle kinda ehh, when people advocate for the gods being reasoned with even though Darkness obliterated all life cos a few hundred people pissed him off and Light plans to kill every last mewling baby on the planet along with everyone else if they aren't up to his "Ethical standards" they are at a minimum as bad as Salem if not worse given they have significantly less reason to be so shit.
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    First of all 'some people are sympathetic to worse characters' is hardly a logical argument as to why current era Salem should get much sympathy from an audience.

    Secondly, I doubt that you or anyone else could argue with a straight face that Salem - if she had the power to wipe out every human on Remnant with a wave of her hand and if doing so could get her closer to achieving her goals - would have the slightest moral compunction* against genociding humanity in short order.
    Every last 'mewling babe' and all.


    Anyway, my initial point was about how I think it unlikely that Salem will live beyond the end of the show.

    She is not one of the protagonists of the show and all of our stories heroes have good reason to want her dead and gone.**

    Indeed they had quite the freak out when they discovered that Ozpin had been lying, Salem was immortal and consequently, offing the Grimm Queen in classic Huntress fashion was not a viable option.

    But I'm sure they will get around that eventually.





    *She might have practical reasons not to do it; but given how ancient and weird in the head she is at this point, who really knows.


    **I remember the the fic 'Hazredous' Interruptions, an Nanoha / RWBY crossover on Spacebattles from some years back.

    The story was generally well received, but (as detailed here) fell at the last hurdle, when it had Salem (blatantly) get away with it despite the best efforts of those Meddling Kids.

    Additionally, it had Salem effectively give the two fingers to the gathered leaders of Remnant and by extension the many peoples they represented.
    I know that Shadow People are mostly irrelevant, but the principle of it still matters.
     
    Sworl said:
    Did the shows creators say it could not be rule-lawyered?

    Because honestly the nature of her curse is kind of vague; possibly intentionally or possibly as a result of the limited run time.

    As far as I can tell, it is as valid to say that the curse can be rule-lawyered as it is to say that it cannot.
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    The creators have not said yay or nay but I maintain it makes no sense to claim it can be rule lawyered given no magic of the brothers it shown to work the way rule lawyers think it does. Let alone the fact said curse was applied by dumping Salem in the Spring of Life which is what had the effect and we know it would have had the same effect had she jumped in on her own given the pool of darkness.

    Sworl said:
    First of all 'some people are sympathetic to worse characters' is hardly a logical argument as to why current era Salem should get much sympathy from an audience.

    Secondly, I doubt that you or anyone else could argue with a straight face that Salem - if she had the power to wipe out every human on Remnant with a wave of her hand and if doing so could get her closer to achieving her goals - would have the slightest moral compunction* against genociding humanity in short order.
    Every last 'mewling babe' and all.
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    I disagree, if someone claims the gods can be reasoned with but Salem can't I do not trust that persons stance even a little because they are infinitely shittier people than her and even more powerful, so the idea they can be made to listen and she never could strikes me as inherantly contradictory and absurd.

    What in the world does that have to do with anything I said?

    Sworl said:
    Anyway, my initial point was about how I think it unlikely that Salem will live beyond the end of the show.

    She is not one of the protagonists of the show and all of our stories heroes have good reason to want her dead and gone.**

    Indeed they had quite the freak out when they discovered that Ozpin had been lying, Salem was immortal and consequently, offing the Grimm Queen in classic Huntress fashion was not a viable option.

    But I'm sure they will get around that eventually.
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    Which again has next to near bearing on what was actually being discussed. Hell, even Bestofworstcase thinks Salem will die/ascend at some point and they are Salem's number 1 fan by all accounts.

    You do realize the rest of this is not actually a narrative, thematic or structural (As in world building) reason for her to die right? The characters have reasons to want a ton of people dead, that doesn't mean said character would die, would die by their hand or would be someone they actually want to execute. Hell, Blake & Yang both gave Adam endless ways out till he gave them no choice and Blake had a complete breakdown after the fact and is still impacted by the trauma of it. "The heroes hate the villain" is not actually a reason for the villain to die in a show like RWBY, with main characters like these.

    Sworl said:
    *She might have practical reasons not to do it; but given how ancient and weird in the head she is at this point, who really knows.


    **I remember the the fic 'Hazredous' Interruptions, an Nanoha / RWBY crossover on Spacebattles from some years back.

    The story was generally well received, but (as detailed here) fell at the last hurdle, when it had Salem (blatantly) get away with it despite the best efforts of those Meddling Kids.

    Additionally, it had Salem effectively give the two fingers to the gathered leaders of Remnant and by extension the many peoples they represented.
    I know that Shadow People are mostly irrelevant, but the principle of it still matters.
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    A fanfic has literally no impact on this discussion, like not even a little.

    But if you want to discuss it, what I have gathered people's issue was is that Salem in that setting- Rather than an abuse victim who was jerked around, traumatized and disproportionately damaged by gods for a request they could have granted & had zero reason not to save Light being a control freak, who then saw her entire species wiped out & was left alone for millennia or millions of years, becoming infused with Grimm essence and then having the worlds worst divorce- Was instead some rando scientist who kept slaughtering massive amounts of innocent people seemingly just cos she didn't particularly like their behavior, origins, species or what have you. Then showed up, humiliated everyone, got told she was basically justified and ambled off with a total victory while everyone else was a blank slate.

    I feel I need to inform you that not only is that a significantly less interesting character with a less interesting and tragic origin story and motive but "Wanders in, flips everyone off, gets exactly what she wants and leaves" is not an idea that's been proposed by anyone, ever.

    The closest anyone has come is Bestworstcase and even their reads highlight that Salem does do incredibly monstrous things, that the cast have every reason to fucking hate her, that a lot of her decisions are frankly not ideal at best and that any potential (I need to stress this potential) alliance against the gods would be one born of necessity. & that given the nature of the show being RWBY would mean Salem would not be the one calling the shots or getting to be correct and badass or well loved.
     
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    Sworl said:
    Did the shows creators say it could not be rule-lawyered?

    Because honestly the nature of her curse is kind of vague; possibly intentionally or possibly as a result of the limited run time.

    As far as I can tell, it is as valid to say that the curse can be rule-lawyered as it is to say that it cannot.
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    Well its not really a curse. The Gods themselves didn't curse her, they threw her into the pool of light. Based off of what we know of the pools, it is likely permanent.

    Psyga315 said:
    I think the point is that, if this is how the fan reaction to a Salem Redemption would go in a fanfic, imagine what would happen if this happened in canon.
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    Was it actually a redemption? That sounded less like a redemption and more like Salem just left.
     
    Kilg%re has always been an incredible dumbass, and seeing him get a movie or two as one of the dueling big bads is a delight. It's one of the reasons I hope the two movies were successful, because DC needs to invest a bit more in their collection of weird.
     
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