Remove ads

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Reader mode
Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
    Last edited:
  • Staff Post
    • GuestLurker said:
    That doesn't mean they're always wrong, just a really bad source. But something designed to notice patterns in what people feed it noticing that Ironwood's plan was full of holes from the start does show that it's not a narrative people should have been surprised about, and people's complaints about it are usually really stupid.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Thing is, if you word your prompts well enough, you can make the AI think any character is morally corrupt.

    I'll serve up an example of what I mean.




    Surprisingly though, Chat GPT did realize the nuance of the situation and eased up on calling Ruby a hypocrite, but still says that Ironwood had a right to know.
     
    Last edited:
    Psyga315 said:
    Thing is, if you word your prompts well enough, you can make the AI think any character is morally corrupt.

    I'll serve up an example of what I mean.




    Surprisingly though, Chat GPT did realize the nuance of the situation and eased up on calling Ruby a hypocrite, but still says that Ironwood had a right to know.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    This isn't a great avenue to pursue from either side. If I had more energy right now I'd try and track down sources, but ChatGPT doesn't 'realize' anything. It's very good at answering 'what word should go next', but there's no theory of mind applicable.
     
    SerGregness said:
    This isn't a great avenue to pursue from either side. If I had more energy right now I'd try and track down sources, but ChatGPT doesn't 'realize' anything. It's very good at answering 'what word should go next', but there's no theory of mind applicable.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    It projects patterns based on what it has been supplied as sources, meaning what you feed it decides what you get. How you phrase things decides what it says because it doesn't actually do any thinking on context and what you might be thinking or how the terms might be twisted.
     
    Literally every "AI" is not actually an Artificial Intelligence, they aren't sentient, they don't think, they are composting programs mixed with pattern recognition. Without feeding them millions of other people's work they can't create shit, because they don't create anything, they just chew up and vomit out other people's labor, hence why its theft hence why its garbage.
     
    Last edited:
    Zam said:
    hence why its theft hence why its garbage.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    But it can be cheaper than actually paying people, so if an individual wants something cheap and quick when they don't have the skills it can be useful, but it is also a possible way for corporations to cut more for the sake of making more money in the future. They tried it with backgrounds for one show on Netflix, and that is a threat to the long term sustainability of animators due to the logistics of the job. And South Park decided to do an experiment with it for an episode and you do notice how little it actually works as a complex narrative and how using it instead of thinking for yourself leads to it making up all kinds of bullshit to match whatever tone the program thinks is going on.

    On the small scale it isn't the worst thing ever, assuming it gained its data morally, but the long term implications are extremely concerning.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    But it can be cheaper than actually paying people, so if an individual wants something cheap and quick when they don't have the skills it can be useful, but it is also a possible way for corporations to cut more for the sake of making more money in the future. They tried it with backgrounds for one show on Netflix, and that is a threat to the long term sustainability of animators due to the logistics of the job. And South Park decided to do an experiment with it for an episode and you do notice how little it actually works as a complex narrative and how using it instead of thinking for yourself leads to it making up all kinds of bullshit to match whatever tone the program thinks is going on.

    On the small scale it isn't the worst thing ever, assuming it gained its data morally, but the long term implications are extremely concerning.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    To me that's like saying "I can't afford this chocolates bar so I'm just going to mug a guy for it", I can't afford tons of stuff I want I still don't steal from my fellow working class people. Art, chats, or whatever else aren't necessities for survival anymore than a chocolates bar is, this is just selfish, cheap, lazy people stealing others work for their own amusement or straight up profiting off it.

    Its definitely fucking over every single artist who makes money by commissioning and literally none of it has been obtained morally because the creators have never once asked permission and chuck tantrums when people protect their art to boot.
     
    Ruby drinking the Tea is framed as suicide. Ruby even fearfully asks the Smith if she is going to die.

    But, the WBY+J scenes treat it with all the gravitas of Ruby ghosting her smalltown neighborhood garage band and running away to college in the big city.

    Jaune can't understand why everyone wants to leave home and Yang is worried her little sister won't ever come back and visit.
     
    buli-buli said:
    Ruby drinking the Tea is framed as suicide. Ruby even fearfully asks the Smith if she is going to die.

    But, the WBY+J scenes treat it with all the gravitas of Ruby ghosting her smalltown neighborhood garage band and running away to college in the big city.

    Jaune can't understand why everyone wants to leave home and Yang is worried her little sister won't ever come back and visit.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I do agree that Jaune's scene had an issue with tone, I think most people do. Like Blake had been pushing the idea the Tree is not death but the issue is either Blake needed to have a conversation with Yang earlier or Jaune's scene needed Yang and Blake to have a radically different reactions. But I get the overall intention so I'm not letting an oof moment in one scene ruin anything for me.
     
    buli-buli said:
    Ruby drinking the Tea is framed as suicide. Ruby even fearfully asks the Smith if she is going to die.

    But, the WBY+J scenes treat it with all the gravitas of Ruby ghosting her smalltown neighborhood garage band and running away to college in the big city.

    Jaune can't understand why everyone wants to leave home and Yang is worried her little sister won't ever come back and visit.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Tonally it also kinda proves Ruby's rant correct that it's basically "smiles all around" and they "gotta stay positive". That's practically their mentality and it's never challenged in any way.
     
    ijp92 said:
    Ruby drinking the Tea is framed as suicide. Ruby even fearfully asks the Smith if she is going to die.

    But, the WBY+J scenes treat it with all the gravitas of Ruby ghosting her smalltown neighborhood garage band and running away to college in the big city.

    Jaune can't understand why everyone wants to leave home and Yang is worried her little sister won't ever come back and visit.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    man, I've been posting a lot this morning.

    At any rate, I've thought of a simpler way to fix this episode and even people's complaints about last episode.
    Just don't code it as suicide.

    I mean let Neo think it is. That's her whole motivation afterall.

    But instead, let Ruby see it not as a way to escape the pain of being herself, but rather Neo's emotional and physucal torture.

    I think there's a big difference between
    drinking poison tea in order to reincarnate because you hate being yourself
    and
    drinking teleporting tea because you want your torturer to stop kicking you and killing your friends.

    And if Ruby wasn't trying to die, them WBY's reactions make a lot more sense too.
     
    Last edited:
    *sigh*
    The reason we didn't get WBY freaking out at the start is because they are still in action mode after being blasted by the cat who than ran off with Neo's body to get to Remnant.
    Basically, a danger was heading for the possible exit and Ruby was going to be there.
    As for the smiles, what the heck is wrong with WBY+J getting a quick moment of reassurance.
    Not to mention we DID get to see worry/concern when they found the Ruby Tree.

    As for the suicide stuff
    Sorry but for the ascension, tree, and tea and the whole point of the narrative to work you NEED the death coding.
    If you didn't have it and it was just Ruby drinking teleporting tea to get out of the beating then the whole dramatic ending of episode 8 would not of worked.
    If Ruby did not see it as a way to just escape everything, it would take away from her narrative where she was hitting absolute rock bottom.
    It would take away from Jaune's narrative where he is trying to escape death because of his fear of failure after everything from Pyrrha to Penny.
    If neither of these 2 see the tree as a death allegory, even if for a moment before the bottom, then it pulls the trigger to soon.
    Jaune needs to face failure and understand it doesn't make him any less of a huntsmen, a hero, or just a Good Man.
    Ruby needs to fall to the utter pits of despair, and then rise from that, to continue her journey of coming to understand Salem, of finding the answer and being the guiding light she has been set up as since the very beginning.
     
    Goddamit, I didnt want this to happen but once again rooster teeth made the same pitfall on the depiction of suicide just like Genlock

    I swear they should just not try to tackle this kinds of topics.
     
    It's a bit harsh, but I'm not surprised that the Genial Gems decided not to remember their time with Jaune. He was basically their prison warden keeping them weak and helpless because he couldn't see outside of his trauma.


    On a happier note, I'm pretty sure that the Blacksmith was working on Little, so we'll be able to see their new form before RWBYJ leaves the Ever After. I'm guessing after travelling with Ruby their going to become a Huntress/Therapist mix so they can help people.
     
    Indivisible said:
    On a happier note, I'm pretty sure that the Blacksmith was working on Little, so we'll be able to see their new form before RWBYJ leaves the Ever After. I'm guessing after travelling with Ruby their going to become a Huntress/Therapist mix so they can help people.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I can totally see her be like "Yo, give me the cheat codes to beat Salem" and the Blacksmith be like "cool, here ya go" and Ruby busts out as a Super Saiyan, because that's the route I see RWBY going.
     
    KnightofRoyalty said:
    Spoilers
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    A: Spoilers

    B: No it's not the same mistake. Admittedly I haven't seen season 2 of that show but I understand it was not remotely this. It is made quite clear that drinking the tea was a horrible act of depression on Ruby's part. It's tragic she drank the tea that is made painfully clear. But what's also clear is that the tea is not death. It's a legit alien concept so direct comparisons are wonky but Ruby made the tea not understanding nunances of the situation. Like jumping off a cliff that has safety measures at the bottom. It's still an attempt if you don't know there's a safety net at the bottom. Blake drinking the tea for example would not be suicide because she understands it's not death. Admittedly she wouldn't understand the blacksmith part so it would still be less risky then she realized.

    And more to the point, it's not death because Ruby will still be Ruby after this. Gen:Lock did controversy because they didn't know what the heck to do with the vanity project. RWBY is one of their biggest show and this volume has been in the plans since Monty Oum's day. There's no way the plan was "Have main character experience death of personality". A Franchise at this point run by the people who helped make it in the first place wouldn't do that. Ruby isn't dying in any sense, she's changing yes, but that's probably amounting to a confidence boost and her moving away from cosplaying as her mom at most.

    Indivisible said:
    It's a bit harsh, but I'm not surprised that the Genial Gems decided not to remember their time with Jaune. He was basically their prison warden keeping them weak and helpless because he couldn't see outside of his trauma.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Yeah, the rebirths we see there is legit reason why the character wouldn't want to remember, why would the Red Prince want to remember being defeated, why would the Gems want to remember being tortured by a well meaning Rusty knight with horrible PTSD?
     
    I suspect the memory loss isn't an optional thing, actually, but I also don't think it'll matter in Ruby's case. I'm pretty confidant she'll be leaving this 'Soul Forge' with her own weapon - after some much needed insight into what being a Huntress meant to her mother, how Summer dealt with her own failures, and how that compares to Ruby's own idealized version and the pedestal she had placed Summer atop of - thus denying Ascension and the accompanying personality death.

    This is, of course, assuming you can back out of or deny your Ascension. But, seeing as the entire process seems to be up to the ascend-y and what they want, I think it's safe to assume you probably can.

    If this does end up being accurate, she'll still have a ton of healing to go through, considering... everything about her confrontation with Neo and her choice at the end of it.
     
    Last edited:
    Darth Vader said:
    I suspect the memory loss isn't an optional thing, actually, but I also don't think it'll matter in Ruby's case. I'm pretty confidant she'll be leaving this 'Soul Forge' with her own weapon - after some much needed insight into what being a Huntress meant to her mother, how Summer dealt with her own failures, and how that compares to her own idealized version and the pedestal she had placed Summer atop of - thus denying Ascension and the accompanying personality death.

    This is, of course, assuming you can back out of or deny your Ascension. But, seeing as the entire process seems to be up to the ascend-y and what they want, I think it's safe to assume you probably can.

    If this does ends up being accurate, she'll still have a ton of healing to go through, considering... everything about her confrontation with Neo and her choice at the end of it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    My thinking is that is for two reasons. CC never confirms it has to happen just that keeping the memories is "Pointless" which isn't definitive. Also the Blacksmith sayings distinctly that nothing happens there that Ruby doesn't want to happen. The implication being is that Ascension turns beings into what they want to be and nothing more or less. Like the Paper Pleasers basically became exactly what they said they wanted to be.

    On a separate note

    While I don't like how the Jaune scene was handled. I should point out two things. Grief is a tricky thing. I've seen tales of people handling the death of a loved one basically without getting upset for weeks or months, until something reminds them of the person they've lost. Like they drive by a store and think "Oh I bet my wife would love that place" and then they just break because that's when it clicks that they're really gone. People react differently to grief. And combined with the Gems being a clear sign that Ascension is not a horrific thing and Jaune didn't fail the Paper pleasers by not protecting them, it was the first decent moment the Group had in a cascade of awful.

    I still think Yang should not have been smiling.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    My thinking is that is for two reasons. CC never confirms it has to happen just that keeping the memories is "Pointless" which isn't definitive. Also the Blacksmith sayings distinctly that nothing happens there that Ruby doesn't want to happen. The implication being is that Ascension turns beings into what they want to be and nothing more or less. Like the Paper Pleasers basically became exactly what they said they wanted to be.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    No, I see what you mean, and I more or less agree. I just find it odd that the Afterian's would deliberately choose to loose their memories. Two or three, sure, but all of them, in every Acre? I dunno.
     
    I was taken by surprise by how short this episode was, I literally shouted "It can't end like this!" at the end! :rofl:

    I see that I'm not the only one to had found the part with WBYJ and the Genial Gems to be awkward. I get what it is about, and that Jaune needed to see the post-Ascension Paper Pleasers/Genial Gems to realize that Ascension isn't death and be able to move on (hell, I even predicted this scene a couple of weeks ago), but them going all smiles upon it just after Ruby disappeared felt jarring, especially Yang who was near catatonic in shock in the previous episode.

    IMHO a way to have it flow better would be to have Yang see the GG and goes "So Ascension really isn't death. So that means that Ruby..." and then have her smile a bit as she regained hope.

    Weiss and Blake's line about how they'll have to accept whatever comes out of Ruby's wooden cocoon could be jarring too, but personally I took it as them deciding to have faith in Ruby, the fact that Yang does raises the fear that it won't be Ruby anymore helps, as it acknowledges that the situation is far from perfect and that Weiss and Blake are acting more in faith than facts.

    Still, that plot threads on an awkward edge between Ascension being an alien process that is actually more akin to therapy and soul searching rather than annihilation, and the fact that what Ruby did (and how Neo pushed her to do it) was definitively coded as a suicide attempt and that Ascension might leave you as someone different (akin to death of personality), and while Ruby actually didn't wanted to kill herself: the temptations she got through the volume was to "be anyone else" and "cast that burden aside", in short that was a fancy way to tempt her to throw the towel and leave the fight behind, like Raven did before. She even says to CC that she "doesn't want to be me anymore", not that she wanted to die.

    But still, once all is said and done, Ruby better apologize to her team - especially to Yang - for worrying them like that, depending on how it goes, that could calm some controversy.


    Other thoughts:
    • I loved how Herb came back, like "Aaaah, that break was great, I feel so refreshed! *crack knuckles* Well, back to work!"
    • I also loved CC's mix of Neo's dramatic flair with their Cat body language, and how increasingly manic they are, both in their tone and body language, especially as they're recounting what happened with Alyx, you can feel how much of a sore spot it is, and how their feelings that they kept bottled up for so long are now exploding. Still, hearing Neo with CC's voice is weird! :D
    • The Ruby zombies were half-unnerving, half-goofy, I guess that they would had have more impact if they actually got to fight.
    • Oh, I haven't noticed at first, but Summer's book in the first scene is the same one that's burning in the opening! I guess that this symbolize how the tale was partly fabricated, and now they are living through the reality behind the story.
     
    Last edited:
    Darth Vader said:
    No, I see what you mean, and I more or less agree. I just find it odd that the Afterian's would deliberately choose to loose their memories. Two or three, sure, but all of them, in every Acre? I dunno.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Alien Society. Like there is no or little implication family exists, we know love exists from a couple of lines but there's little indication that families really exist. And death only happens in Ever After under very specific circumstances. So less attachment to specific people and the knowledge they're immortal effectively.
     
    Pugman said:
    Briar Rose

    View: https://nyxlarkyn.tumblr.com/post/714732211397672960/im-adding-more-fuel-to-my-briar-rose-potential


    WBY+J

    View: https://www.tumblr.com/the-penitent-ao3/714723122842091520/i-think-the-most-tone-deaf-rwby-critique-is-the
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Hmm. I have some major problems with that second tumblr post, and it's the first one where I feel like some of the criticisms of toxic fandom positivity might be... semi accurate.

    Firstly, comparing 'I think this sensitive plot point about grief/suicide was slightly mishandled in this one scene' is not the same - or worse - as deliberate misleading readings of the text like 'Bumblebee is abusive' or 'Ironwood was right', and implying they are the same is incredibly chilling to actual honest critique. There's nothing wrong with pointing out minor stumbles. It doesn't mean you hate the show.

    Secondly, while I get what the post is trying to say, and I think the scene at the tree with WBYJ conveyed it quite well, the coding of the Genial Gems scene (along with, honestly, background fandom issues around focusing on Jaune's trauma over the girls, which is debatable because Jaune here is acting more as a foil/parallel to Ruby so arguably it was necessary on a narrative level but still kinda feels not great) made it a bit too positive - less about moving forward, or focusing on a combat goal. This could have been fixed with additional tweaks (really minor ones, a couple of line deliveries, or facial animation) or better yet, one extra scene just before with them discussing the suicide coding of Ruby's tea party and coming to the rebirth realisation about the tree - fuck, it could even have been just three or four clear lines!

    I think the difference between this and genLOCK - or even Penny's death at the end of V8, which I still fucking hate - is that there's clearly good intentions here on a character arc level. We'll see if they can nail it in the last episode, but it's not actively stupid and malicious like genLOCK, or for furthering a different set of characters' arcs. And I think it's important to note where they misstep in this, because it's an important issue, and acting like pointing out minor mistakes is the same as malicious, actively counter-textual misreadings like the tumblr post does is not only silly, but kinda dangerous.
     
    Last edited:
    hellgodsrus said:
    ... (along with, honestly, background fandom issues around focusing on Jaune's trauma over the girls, which is debatable because Jaune here is acting more as a foil/parallel to Ruby so arguably it was necessary on a narrative level but still kinda feels not great)...
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    It wasn't lost on me that Jaune was the one who ended up with the full group hug that Ruby's needed since last season (she has needed more than that, but still). You can point to in-character reasons it ended up that way, Jaune breaking in a more visible way not least of them, but as much as I think Jaune's struggle would be okay - interesting even! - on its own, unless they manage to really solidly weld it to what Ruby's going through next week, it will have ended up taking more than its share of oxygen from the Ruby stuff.
     
    Last edited:
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top