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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • excalibur2008 said:
    My point is that at NO ACTUAL POINT was Leo previously betraying them being treated remotely as a reason to not tell Ironwood and any comparison to Ozpin was to how they saw him as a lying bastard and didn't care why he did it.
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    Last two headmasters lied to them and broke their trust, why list both when the most recent occurrence is example enough with no counter-example to contrast against for the sake of arguing a point they're mostly on the same page about anyways?
    excalibur2008 said:
    This is very much them not agreeing with the idea that previous betrayals justify lying to your allies.
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    Have you ever heard of the term "trust, but verify" before? They may want to trust Ironwood, but they have many examples of Headmasters and Atlesian authorities not being on the up-and-up, not to mention the state of Mantle and them being brought to Atlas in cuffs making them even more worried. They even planned to tell Ironwood everything once he was in a less concerning state, and did so once he seemed to be willing to work with others and extend trust to people who seemed risky himself.
     
    Pugman said:
    So I'd say it would be a safe guess that Team Refugee (Nora, Ren, Oscar, and a lesser extent Emerald) are going to put their trust in the people at Shade Academy, and the Beacon Brigade will help enable trust between both groups. After all, the Brigade eared the trust and respect of the people of Vacuo.
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    Yes, but also don't forget that each of the Headmasters were compromised in some way, shape, or form, and every time they had put their trust in them, they got fucked over in varying degrees of hardness.
    • Trusting Ozpin caused them to find out that Salem couldn't be killed, but overall just inconvenienced them from the trip to Atlas.
    • Trusting Lionheart nearly got Weiss killed.
    • Trusting Ironwood got Penny and several other people killed.
    GuestLurker said:
    Last two headmasters lied to them and broke their trust, why list both when the most recent occurrence is example enough with no counter-example to contrast against for the sake of arguing a point they're mostly on the same page about anyways?
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    If people are gonna justify them not trusting Ironwood by saying "Leo", then by all accounts, Theodore shouldn't be an exception because Ironwood just solidified their justifications.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Trusting Lionheart nearly got Weiss killed.
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    Pretty much going behind his back to recruits Huntsmen to go after Raven themselves while Ozpin comments on him acting kind of shady is the exact opposite of trust.

    Which is another reason blaming Leo for not trusting Ironwood doesn't work as probably the only ones who actually felt betrayed were Ozpin and Qrow.
     
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    excalibur2008 said:
    Pretty much going behind his back to recruits Huntsmen to go after Raven themselves while Ozpin comments on him acting kind of shady is the exact opposite of trust.
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    Yeah, but the problem is that they didn't really do much once they found that they didn't actually have Huntsmen to recruit, even when they know where Raven was. Instead, they waited until Leo told them to come over to his place, so I count that as trusting.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Yeah, but the problem is that they didn't really do much once they found that they didn't actually have Huntsmen to recruit, even when they know where Raven was. Instead, they waited until Leo told them to come over to his place, so I count that as trusting.
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    They were cautious. That is why they all went together and brought their weapons.

    Psyga315 said:
    Yes, but also don't forget that each of the Headmasters were compromised in some way, shape, or form, and every time they had put their trust in them, they got fucked over in varying degrees of hardness.
    • Trusting Ozpin caused them to find out that Salem couldn't be killed, but overall just inconvenienced them from the trip to Atlas.
    • Trusting Lionheart nearly got Weiss killed.
    • Trusting Ironwood got Penny and several other people killed.


    If people are gonna justify them not trusting Ironwood by saying "Leo", then by all accounts, Theodore shouldn't be an exception because Ironwood just solidified their justifications.
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    And yet, the books have already covered Vacuo in a way, such as building trust and support between Theo/Xanthe and the students such as the Beacon Brigade.
    Not to mention Ruby's global message.

    Ozpin (inadvertently) left Leo in a spotlight position in a bad area without much if any of a support network, thus making him easy pickings for Salem.
    Ironwood was isolated due to a mix of Atlesian culture and his own actions.
    Theo, on the other hand, has not been shown to be alone or isolated.

    Vacuo is also where the Great War took a turn, and in this new War it shall do the same.
     
    Fun fact, I recall sharing meta that said Leo was probably isolated due to being a Faunus and his seeming lack of allies at Haven and it got torn apart by people screeching "Heacanon headcanon the show didn't say that!" then as the story goes on and is expanded in other spheres we find out that was exactly the case.

    Also to cut annoyance off at the path ahead, the reason it didn't get directly brought up in the show is both cos it didn't need to be at the time and because one of the founding concepts of RWBY's writing is that it likes to establish a character or aspect of the world and then reveal info on it later as the story progresses.
     
    Zam said:
    Also to cut annoyance off at the path ahead, the reason it didn't get directly brought up in the show is both cos it didn't need to be at the time and because one of the founding concepts of RWBY's writing is that it likes to establish a character or aspect of the world and then reveal info on it later as the story progresses.
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    That's a very generous way of saying the writers don't flesh out characters in the show then dump their character bios in a commentary track so that people can pay for the privilege of learning someone's backstory.

    Either way, the show still didn't say that, the writers did- a notable difference. Leo has only come up twice since he died and neither of those scenes had anything to do with his Faunus heritage isolating him. It was said out-of-show. If you need to consume out of show content to understand character motivations, you've fundamentally failed as a writer.

    This is the same reason people hated the World of Remnant shorts: It's writers assigning homework.
     
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    ArtFartCop said:
    That's a very generous way of saying the writers don't flesh out characters in the show then dump their character bios in a commentary track so that people can pay for the privilege of learning someone's backstory.

    This is the same reason people hated the World of Remnant shorts: It's writers assigning homework.
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    That was after they shut down the other only way of getting the privilege of learning someone's backstory: gacha Clash Royale that people easily dismiss as propaganda even though it doesn't make sense for some of the cards giving tragic backstories to people that the Kingdom would obviously oppose.

    And even then, that homework doesn't even come up that often in the actual show or gets retconned in some fashion. The only time it's ever become important was in the CCT Episode where Ozpin was like:

    Ozpin said:
    If for some very vague reason, which I'm very sure won't be important in the upcoming episodes of this Volume, the CCT were to go down, we'd all be in a communications blackout which is teehee funny and poetic, right? Like, that's not actually gonna happen, right? Right?
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    Psyga315 said:
    That was after they shut down the other only way of getting the privilege of learning someone's backstory: gacha Clash Royale that people easily dismiss as propaganda even though it doesn't make sense for some of the cards giving tragic backstories to people that the Kingdom would obviously oppose.

    And even then, that homework doesn't even come up that often in the actual show or gets retconned in some fashion. The only time it's ever become important was in the CCT Episode where Ozpin was like:
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    I think the Volume 5 commentary was before Amity Arena's IRL closure but otherwise yeah. M&K got way too comfy in general after Volume 3 with relegating character lore into side material and just expecting fans to follow them around like a cat chasing a laser dot. Especially once the factor of charging for said information came in by locking it behind convention panels, side games and commentary tracks.
     
    Unaligned Player said:
    I thought that was because, in the words of Qrow: "What? Leo. We're Huntsmen."
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    Aye, but it was still them being cautious. Qrow and Oz had a slowly growing feeling that something was up with Leo, especially with that message asking for them to meet him that night.


    Psyga315 said:
    That was after they shut down the other only way of getting the privilege of learning someone's backstory: gacha Clash Royale that people easily dismiss as propaganda even though it doesn't make sense for some of the cards giving tragic backstories to people that the Kingdom would obviously oppose.

    And even then, that homework doesn't even come up that often in the actual show or gets retconned in some fashion. The only time it's ever become important was in the CCT Episode where Ozpin was like:
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    way to twist that narrative with that poor parody.

    now as for the World of Remnant videos, I can't recall them getting hate, and the most "retcon" was the aura video which was made when they were still trying to nail down details of their world.
    Heck, NONE of the World of Remnant videos are needed to understand the show.
    Aura - a topic that pops up in the show a few times
    Faunus - the only thing we learn here that we don't in show is the genetic roulette stuff which is not brought up in show because it is a nonfactor in the story.
    CCT - a very simple worldbuilding video that came out around the time CCT stuff was brought into the story and Oz's final words at best were a tease for things to come that were more like a reward cookie for those who bothered to watch the video.
    SDC - an early world building look at a subject we would eventually see more of in the show
    Maidens and Kingdoms - same as the SDC video.
     
    They released the WoR videoes during the middle of the volumes SO that people would see them as they're seeing the episodes. They're not really side content.
     
    Pugman said:
    Aye, but it was still them being cautious. Qrow and Oz had a slowly growing feeling that something was up with Leo, especially with that message asking for them to meet him that night.
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    So doing something that isn't unusual because someone else was doing something that was, and pointing out how weird the later was acting when they questioned the relatively normal thing.
    Matrix Dragon said:
    They released the WoR videoes during the middle of the volumes SO that people would see them as they're seeing the episodes. They're not really side content.
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    And maybe also give more time to make each episode, if I remember the release schedule right.
     
    Huh, this is a neat bit of trivia from the wiki:

    "Ironwood's death was foreshadowed in the Volume 3 Opening when he and his army were shown while the lyrics "Crushed by the Weight of the World" were being played."
     
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