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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • So far two of the nations in Remnant are the definition of a failed state. With it being Mistral and Vacou.

    Though Mistral at least pretends it's a unified nation. But basically anything outside of its Capital is just left to its owns devices. With gangs and cartels holding enough power/influence that they can get the Mistral military to ignore people.

    Vacuo is doesn't even bother pretending it's a unified nation. The council basically has as much power as the Somali government.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    And as we've seen with Anima and the Grimm, that demilitarization ended up being more of a hindrance for Remnant as a whole once shit truly hit the fan and the Grimm attacks increased in number, thus causing forces to spread so thin that it made Salem's forces move with much more ease...
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    Would Mistral really spend a bunch of money to occupy every village that went off because they didn't like the way things were run, or would they leave their defenses to the villages to hire huntsmen for themselves for not bowing to their authority? And if the former how would that be any different from what they were doing before the Great War?
    Pugman said:
    Remnant could not of had more than the current nations for both in-universe and out of universe reasons.
    In universe - Grimm and 80 years of peace after a big global war that saw pretty much all sides put back where they started
    out of universe - a balance between to much and to little in regards to locations to go through, and also baked into the Balance of 4 the show has had since the beginning.
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    Even then there is at least one more that the others don't count (Menagerie), and villages are technically free to try to make their own path in the wilds, assuming they can survive the Grimm and everything else out there.
    MonochromeXClown said:
    The council basically has as much power as the Somali government.
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    Which one?
     
    ArtFartCop said:
    You forgot the big one.

    Ironwood was a good character before Volume 8 made him an ableist stereotype so badly written, it retroactively ruined his entire character and Volume 7 by proxy.
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    Or there was no ableism involved in his actions, and it was entirely the paranoia, distrust, and tendency towards being the big hammer that he was from volume 2 onwards, combined with the fact that once he launched a coup against his own government there was no way back. Either he succeeded or he faced the consequences.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    So far two of the nations in Remnant are the definition of a failed state. With it being Mistral and Vacou.
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    There's also Vale and Atlas.

    Atlas has been talked to death on why it's a failed state, but Vale not so much.

    It's subtle, but given how Roman was able to swipe up dozens of Dust crystals within a short amount of time and how the Fall of Beacon was orchestrated without anyone being the wiser, Vale failed in that it grew so complacent with peace that it became blind to injustice being done behind its back and the most it does are token efforts.
     
    Pugman said:
    *taps the "Greek Tragedy" and "no character assassination" tags*
    Ironwood's entire story plays like a Greek Tragedy, no character assassination at all.
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    Forgot the part of the Greek Tragedy where the problem that they became a villain over is magically solved for them and yet they decide to shoot themselves in the foot for whatever reason but now their plan is even stupider given Salem is on Atlas.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Forgot the part of the Greek Tragedy where the problem that they became a villain over is magically solved for them and yet they decide to shoot themselves in the foot for whatever reason but now their plan is even stupider given Salem is on Atlas.
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    Sunk cost fallacy is a terrible thing. Also trying to avoid firing squads for treason.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Forgot the part of the Greek Tragedy where the problem that they became a villain over is magically solved for them and yet they decide to shoot themselves in the foot for whatever reason but now their plan is even stupider given Salem is on Atlas.
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    Yet, we still called Macbeth a tragedy.

    Again, I'm just hoping for volume 9 to come out so we could end this stupid discussion and have some new fucking content to talk about. I want fluff. I want angst something to get us out of this. Ridiculous circle jerk/ circular firing squad
     
    Jaytjones said:
    Also, I reject the idea that he was even meant to be representation
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    At most he's a representation of what not getting therapy can do to people with power.
    MonochromeXClown said:
    Vacuo council.
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    It was a joke about Somali governments, as there is Somalia and Somaliland that makes up almost half of it that is a near completely separate country except for the UN refusing to acknowledge it. That might have changed in the few years since I last looked it up, but that is also an example of how some parts of Vacuo or Mistral might be operating.
    Psyga315 said:
    Forgot the part of the Greek Tragedy where the problem that they became a villain over is magically solved for them and yet they decide to shoot themselves in the foot for whatever reason but now their plan is even stupider given Salem is on Atlas.
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    How many Greek Tragedies, or other later kinds, do you know? Doing something despite someone having fixed it or presented an alternative and making it worse because of one's own flaws -like a need to be the active hero going out to do things himself- and then doubling and even tripling down on said flaws, is a rather common theme in them.
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Sunk cost fallacy is a terrible thing. Also trying to avoid firing squads for treason.
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    I don't think he was thinking that far ahead, or even realizing that his actions would be treasonous. He is convinced he is the Hero after all. Sadly for him he is right, save that it is a tragedy instead of an action movie or something where his Hard Man thing would get the results he wants.
    Jaytjones said:
    Again, I'm just hoping for volume 9 to come out so we could end this stupid discussion and have some new fucking content to talk about.
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    People will still insist on coming back to it to complain about RWBY being bad for the same empty arguments for the thousandth time per month, same as they do other things from earlier seasons.

    They're better than Adam-stans at least. Not saying much, or by much, but they usually are. At least when they aren't stanning both of them...
     
    GuestLurker said:
    I don't think he was thinking that far ahead, or even realizing that his actions would be treasonous. He is convinced he is the Hero after all. Sadly for him he is right, save that it is a tragedy instead of an action movie or something where his Hard Man thing would get the results he wants.
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    I think a part of him knew. And if nothing else, he had to PROVE the space plan was the only right option, and that he'd been right all along. If he did that, then he could spin his other crimes (Mantle, Fria, Oscar, Sleet) as nessecary.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Forgot the part of the Greek Tragedy where the problem that they became a villain over is magically solved for them and yet they decide to shoot themselves in the foot for whatever reason but now their plan is even stupider given Salem is on Atlas.
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    .......
    ok, where did I put that video

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL4ti1EGNiw

    ah there we go.
    ok, here is the usual structure of a Greek Tragedy
    1 - The Hero starts out in a Good Position
    2 - The Hero has a Fatal Flaw
    3 - Fatal Flaw gives a Reversal of Fortune
    4 - Things go Downhill
    5 - Catharsis/Dénouement

    now;
    1 - James Ironwood is General of the Atlas Military, Headmaster of Atlas Academy, holds TWO seats on the Atlas Council.
    2 - Hero Complex. He is right, never wrong, everyone should just trust him, and is very stubborn and steadfast in these beliefs.
    3 - #2 is why he stops listening to RWBY and anyone else when things start to fall off the rails and now a group of once allies are against him.
    4 - Oh hello Volume 8, where his Flaw drives him further and further down.
    5 - "And that's Checkmate" and V8 closes without another word spoken as the curtain falls on the Kingdom of Atlas.

    And that is just from refreshing myself on the first 4 minutes or so on the above video.
     
    Jaytjones said:
    Sorry But that's how I was raised. My family has a sailor's tongue in more way than one.
    (Although truthfully I get it from my mother)
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    Fair enough but mods won't necessarily care.
    MetropolisMCU said:
    That is one of the things we have confirmation as being a retcon.

    The Maidens as a concept didn't exist, and were actually a last minute addition by Monty between the development of V2 and 3.

    Either way, I like the Maidens and personally think their inclusion was a neat addition.
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    Yes and no, the Maidens were a new concept, but Cinder had thematic and autumn comparisons with Pyrrha in V2 as well as hints of the glowy eyes, so I think its more a case of Monty radically expanding on or changing up the the details over them being totally absent.
     
    OK, on to the next aspect from the video, the foreshadowed flaw.
    The aspect of a story where the audience either outright knows or can see the fall coming and thus the suspense comes from waiting for that other shoe to drop.
    And what do we get from The General's debut in V2 onwards? Ironwood "bringing his work with him" as Ozpin more or less put it as he watched a gods damn foreign fleet hover above his city. Glynda's talk with Ironwood about actually showing trust in others, and also her "contest of measuring d-" comment. Winter, his second, falling to easy and clear baits at the start and end of a fight (yes it's Winter, but she prides herself on her station). Ironwood going behind Ozpin's back after the Breach to get put i charge of security and Qrow calling him out on it. and then after Beacon we see Ironwood threaten Jac, pull back all forces despite knowing an ally nation might be in danger, and placing the embargo. Then by the time the protagonists make it to Atlas we how under protected and underfunded Mantle is and how basically everyone there has zero trust in Ironwood or his forces. We see Ironwood trying to stay strong and positive despite everything, but despite what detractors say The Fall Of The General is set up, and V7 is where the Tragedy really begins to kick in.
    Here is a list of the various signs things would go FUBAR;
    Ruby's lie, while well intentioned, was the first thing. By holding off, even if it was the right call to give Ironwood time and try to help him sort things out before they hit him with the Big News, it still let things sit for a dangerously long time.
    Ironwood's feelings toward Mantle deteriorate over the course of V7.
    Ruby and friends various talks about the goings on through the volume, in a way acting kind of like the Chorus from Greek Tragedy.
    Ironwood's volatile reaction to Robyn and the HH's increased reclamation of goods from the military plus Mantle's increased refusal to work with him after the election.
    And the last warning, a tired Ironwood talking to Oscar and praying for no more surprises because he doesn't think he could handle another one.
    With that last warning, and the audience's knowledge that Cinder and Neo were around it was clear before it happened, shit was going to go wrong. You can see the tragedy coming, and the dread just continues to mount the entire time during that last office scene. The chess piece, the uncertainty in the cast of who else could be there aside from Cinder, Ironwood's rising temper, Weiss yelling for everyone to stop yelling, "Loyalty ALWAYS matters!", and then.....her.
    Salems shows herself, and places the final nail in the coffin for any unity between Team RWBY and Team Ironwood.
    And with that...the tragedy has happened, and all that remained for General James Ironwood....was the fall and final curtain.
    Checkmate indeed, Cinder.

    next item from the video, Collateral Damage.
    *looks at all of the Atlas/Mantle based characters, the dead the survivors, and the big icey lake that used to be the kingdom*
    Do I need to explain this section?

    last main section, perspective and situation.
    As many have said, Ironwood saw himself as The Hero, however he is not. Ruby and her friends are The Heroes of this story. If we took Ironwood and plopped him into a different story/world/situation then yeah, ol Irondaddy would of indeed become The Hero he (and his supporters) saw him as. Unfortunately Ironwood's stubborn rigidness in being The Hero clearly could not handle an ever evolving situation and clearly could not think around various problems, while Ruby and friends were making plans on the fly to overcome each and every situation that got thrown in their face.
     
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    GuestLurker said:
    People will still insist on coming back to it to complain about RWBY being bad for the same empty arguments for the thousandth time per month, same as they do other things from earlier seasons.

    They're better than Adam-stans at least. Not saying much, or by much, but they usually are. At least when they aren't stanning both of them...
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    I just want people to start complaining about new things.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    At most he's a representation of what not getting therapy can do to people with power.

    It was a joke about Somali governments, as there is Somalia and Somaliland that makes up almost half of it that is a near completely separate country except for the UN refusing to acknowledge it. That might have changed in the few years since I last looked it up, but that is also an example of how some parts of Vacuo or Mistral might be operating.

    How many Greek Tragedies, or other later kinds, do you know? Doing something despite someone having fixed it or presented an alternative and making it worse because of one's own flaws -like a need to be the active hero going out to do things himself- and then doubling and even tripling down on said flaws, is a rather common theme in them.

    I don't think he was thinking that far ahead, or even realizing that his actions would be treasonous. He is convinced he is the Hero after all. Sadly for him he is right, save that it is a tragedy instead of an action movie or something where his Hard Man thing would get the results he wants.

    People will still insist on coming back to it to complain about RWBY being bad for the same empty arguments for the thousandth time per month, same as they do other things from earlier seasons.

    They're better than Adam-stans at least. Not saying much, or by much, but they usually are. At least when they aren't stanning both of them...
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    I mean granted. I like Raven personally but I think she represents the missed potential for her interacting with the rest of the xiao long rose family (Also I prefer her being top edge lord of Rwby )
    Also, we don't even know why she left so there's so many different ways of writing it, which is fun as a writer. As far as we know it, no abuse happened with her and tai.

    So we could say they had a falling out.

    Or we could say she felt it would be too much with danger to stay with the Tai and yang for them. And she knew ty for a fact. Was able to handle raising Yang.


    These are the characters I think deserve more analysis and ideas. Ironwood is an authoritarian prick. Atam is a fucking edge (that I genuinely wished sun and him had a rivalry
    Because I love journey to the West as a concept.
     
    I love this take
    I just have this idea where when Salem catches on that her manipulations aren't going to work on Ruby she instead settles on being 100% straightforward with her and this is somehow much, much worse. Like: XD
     
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