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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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    • Psyga315 said:
    Which doesn't really bode well when their last major victory, Haven, was because Cinder was too dumb to just let the White Fang do their thing and Adam was too dumb to just let Menagerie stew in their apathy.
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    Cinder's mistake at Haven was putting her personal grudges and desire for Maiden power over the mission, IE, having character flaws that influence her behavior, like a person.

    Adam's mistake was letting his long established malice and lust for power start getting the better of him the more power he gained, again, as has been established as a character fault, IE, a thing people and characters have.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    I strongly suspect that the staffs powers were originally more limited, the "unlimited energy source" that it is described as in V7, and they quietly retconned it partway through V8 when they realized they had written themselves into a corner and needed a Deus ex Machina.
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    I know someone who bought the Blu Ray and took notes of the V8 commentary. Make what you will of these quotes:

    Commentary said:
    They hadn't settled 100% on whether every relic was going to have [inaudible, presumably person] but they're glad they did. Eddy says: "Well then also try to really iron the rules of this one. I remember we were trying to do that early in the outlining process even though we didn't exactly know how we were going to use the staff by the end of the volume, which made things kind of tricky, you know once we got here and it's like 'well we put all of our characters in this impossible problem, so.. now how do they get out?'". Kerry says: "You know we.. it's always the specifics, right? We knew the whole time that like 'okay, this is what the staff does, but, what are the specific rules?' and yeah, making sure that wasn't gonna break anything was a big deal."
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    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    The contention is that Ambro also stops time. And that he has no limit on successive (rather than concurrent) uses.
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    Ambrosious almost certainly has no real limits on his ability to stop time. Salem however has no way to compel Ambrosious into letting her abuse his time stop for her own gain.


    When Ruby tried that trick with Jinn she was given a very explicit warning that Jinn would not tolerate such shenanigans in the future, and only let it slide that one time because it was clever and she liked her.


    So the time stop is completely moot. It's only purpose is making sure you don't get facpunched while you're making a request to the Relic.



    Zam said:
    Saying its arbitrary when its literally "Salem is good at manipulating people, that's not the same thing as being able to draw up blue prints for a device that would help her accomplish her goals" isn't much of an argument.
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    In any case I can't help but recall how conspicuously the story focused on the girls specifically handing over the staff from one user to the next every time they used it.


    First Ruby grabbed it and asked for the Penny fix. Then instead of just using the staff again she specifically gave it to Weiss so that Weiss could be the person to summon Ambrosious and give him his next task. And once that was done Weiss handed the staff over to Penny.



    If the point was just that Penny should have had the staff then Ruby could have just given it directly to Penny. Or used the Staff a second time and then given it to Penny herself.

    It makes me suspicious that Ambrosious has a further currently unstated limitation that a person can only summon Ambrosious once, and then they need to hand the staff over to someone else to let them have a turn.


    So Salem can do something horrifying with the staff. Once. And then she either needs to trust her minions (of which she's in short supply of eligible candidates) to use the staff in her stead. Or she needs to make do with her one singular use of the staff.
     
    Mook said:
    Ambrosious almost certainly has no real limits on his ability to stop time. Salem however has no way to compel Ambrosious into letting her abuse his time stop for her own gain.


    When Ruby tried that trick with Jinn she was given a very explicit warning that Jinn would not tolerate such shenanigans in the future, and only let it slide that one time because it was clever and she liked her.


    So the time stop is completely moot. It's only purpose is making sure you don't get facpunched while you're making a request to the Relic.




    In any case I can't help but recall how conspicuously the story focused on the girls specifically handing over the staff from one user to the next every time they used it.


    First Ruby grabbed it and asked for the Penny fix. Then instead of just using the staff again she specifically gave it to Weiss so that Weiss could be the person to summon Ambrosious and give him his next task. And once that was done Weiss handed the staff over to Penny.



    If the point was just that Penny should have had the staff then Ruby could have just given it directly to Penny. Or used the Staff a second time and then given it to Penny herself.

    It makes me suspicious that Ambrosious has a further currently unstated limitation that a person can only summon Ambrosious once, and then they need to hand the staff over to someone else to let them have a turn.


    So Salem can do something horrifying with the staff. Once. And then she either needs to trust her minions (of which she's in short supply of eligible candidates) to use the staff in her stead. Or she needs to make do with her one singular use of the staff.
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    Matrix Dragon said:
    That is an interesting theory there Mook. It's only conjecture, but it does fit with onscreen data so far.
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    Actually I'd say there is a different reason for the hand offs.
    For when Ruby and Weiss had it, it was more about who was better suited to making the request.
    Ruby was suited for the Penny job because she was Penny's first friend and usually the one in the group to be clever with words, so she would lead the group in a chance at a loophole.
    Weiss is a clearer speaker so trying to put plainly specific details would be more her forte and she would be the one to have the schematics for the plan thanks to her brother.
    Then in the end they hand the Relic to Penny because she is the Winter Maiden and their goal is to get both her and the Relic to safety.
     
    Pugman said:
    Actually I'd say there is a different reason for the hand offs.
    For when Ruby and Weiss had it, it was more about who was better suited to making the request.
    Ruby was suited for the Penny job because she was Penny's first friend and usually the one in the group to be clever with words, so she would lead the group in a chance at a loophole.
    Weiss is a clearer speaker so trying to put plainly specific details would be more her forte and she would be the one to have the schematics for the plan thanks to her brother.
    Then in the end they hand the Relic to Penny because she is the Winter Maiden and their goal is to get both her and the Relic to safety.
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    Also valid. Personally, the main reason I doubt Mooks theory is due to the fact it wasn't actually mentioned in a context that would have suited it (The planning session). Mentioning it later runs to many risks of the nonsense we've seen getting kicked up a notch.
     
    Besides the technical stuff, there a two other more thematically appropriate reasons why Salem might not be able to use the Staff as an I Win button:
    1-She can't use the relics herself, they are made by the Gods and they can put a rule in place that says that she can't use the Relics meaning that she would need to trust someone to use them for her, and she doesn't trust anyone for that.
    2-She is going to use the staff to make something that she won't want to unmake in order to make something else, like a replacement goldfish for her daughters.
     
    Let's be fair, the moment we saw the end goal purpose of the Relics, calling the GodBros, it should be obvious they would be brought together.
    So honestly the bad guys getting 2 of the 4 is honestly not that surprising.
    I mean, it isn't uncommon for the bad guys to get their hands on the major mcguffins before the end of the show forcing our heroes to play behind the metaphorical 8-ball.
     
    ShadowEMT said:
    She can't use the relics herself, they are made by the Gods and they can put a rule in place that says that she can't use the Relics meaning that she would need to trust someone to use them for her, and she doesn't trust anyone for that.
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    If this would be the case, then it might explain the cult she has and why she keeps them in the dark.

    Remember what GoL said: if humans are demanding things despite fighting among themselves, they go boom. By making them think gathering the Relics is going to change the world and they ask "hey, can you get rid of the Huntsman Academies/make me a badass professor/give me power/do what my queen asks", they'll end up nuking humanity.
     
    I thought we were done, but one last time being forced to go in circles again, I maintain Salem can't use the staff to win in any useful way because as established her goals require the Relics.

    The thing she needs the staff to be able to do to actually be of any real help to her actual goals is create a Maiden tracker or key to the vaults, but as Salem can't do those things herself, she can't tell him how to make them, so she can't.

    As noted, even if killing everyone in Vacuo weren't of questionable viability, it doesn't actually help her in anyway that counts beyond making it slightly easier to access a door she can't even open.
     
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