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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Strange, I never thought the sheath mechashifted and that it just doubled as a rifle as-is.
     
    "Ya know.....I gotta wonder.
    Why did Monty chose the character based on Beauty And The Beast to be the Anime Ninja Cat Girl of the show?
    Just for the beast thing?"

    - This has been, Random Bathroom Thoughts from Pug
     
    Pugman said:
    "Ya know.....I gotta wonder.
    Why did Monty chose the character based on Beauty And The Beast to be the Anime Ninja Cat Girl of the show?
    Just for the beast thing?"

    - This has been, Random Bathroom Thoughts from Pug
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    He was inspired by anime, and considering all the puns and simple visual gags anime is full of I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't just for a simple joke that could be expanded into a character attribute.
     
    But of course! When creating the characters, Monty would most certainly have assessed what their movie interests would be IRL.

    For Blake it was a no brainer. Lumière's voice actor for the 1991 Disney film was before then a prominent Broadway star and for what I can gather inspired the Faunus parentage through and through.

    Then, there's what media he might have had in his feed around the early 2010s. Not only was there Disneyland Tokyo's decision to roll out with:

    View: https://youtu.be/uQApThGGe_g?t=66 there was the rather unsettling Beastly (2011) starring Vanessa Hudgens as Belle, though it probably didn't get much of a following except for whatever brief buzz happened when Teen Choice awarded it with best kiss?

    I can only imagine RWBY relied heavily on everyone hyping young adult vampire fiction, whether it was Twilight or Vampire Diaries.
     
    It always helps to remember that the relic wasn't the reason Salem went to Atlas at this point. She went because there was a chance Oz could talk Ironwood out of Operation: Divided We Fall. I suspect the main benefit to her having the Staff at this point is that her enemies can't use it.
     
    The thing is, you don't even have to be particularly creative with the staff, because it's no killing rule is trivially bypassed by putting any delay on the harm done, and it lets you stop time without restrictions. Create an asteroid aimed at Vacuo city. Put half the enemy team in giant airtight metal box. Spawn a massive amount of explosives, then set it off once time starts. Replace youself with a giant spike pointed at someone who is charging at you. None of that is going to require technical skills or leaves Ambrosius any room to screw up, and if he doee, who cares. You aren't invested in anything you are doing.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    The thing is, you don't even have to be particularly creative with the staff, because it's no killing rule is trivially bypassed by putting any delay on the harm done, and it lets you stop time without restrictions. Create an asteroid aimed at Vacuo city. Put half the enemy team in giant airtight metal box. Spawn a massive amount of explosives, then set it off once time starts. Replace youself with a giant spike pointed at someone who is charging at you. None of that is going to require technical skills or leaves Ambrosius any room to screw up, and if he doee, who cares. You aren't invested in anything you are doing.
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    Just kinda glossed over literally everything everyone observed about needing to provide blue prints, explanations, logical cohesion and structures to make it work, along with the fact Ambrosia's extremely unreliable even when he actively likes you and wants your plan to succeed didn't you?

    EDIT: Along with the fact that crushing Vacuo with a meteor does jack shit to help Salem get the Relic and may even render it impossible to access.
     
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    Zam said:
    Just kinda glossed over literally everything everyone observed about needing to provide blue prints, explanations, logical cohesion and structures to make it work, along with the fact Ambrosia's extremely unreliable even when he actively likes you and wants your plan to succeed didn't you?

    EDIT: Along with the fact that crushing Vacuo with a meteor does jack shit to help Salem get the Relic and may even render it impossible to access.
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    Did Cinder need blueprints and extensive explanations to burn Watts alive? No, she didn't. The need for blueprints is vastly overstated by the fandom-they are needed to prevent Ambro going off the rails, but sufficiently simple requests do not require all the homework because there is nothing to mess up. On top of that, Rwby were able to make the gates by pointing at the vault gates and telling him to make something like that, which lowers the bar on the staff immensely (it's much easier to find examples then it is to described how things work).

    And sure, maybe crushing Vacuo wouldn't be helpful to Salem's plans. She could flood the city with poison gas instead, or crush Vale if it looks like it is going to intervene. The point is that having the staff does seriously increase what Salem can do even without extensive technical knowledge on her part.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    Did Cinder need blueprints and extensive explanations to burn Watts alive? No, she didn't. The need for blueprints is vastly overstated by the fandom-they are needed to prevent Ambro going off the rails, but sufficiently simple requests do not require all the homework because there is nothing to mess up. On top of that, Rwby were able to make the gates by pointing at the vault gates and telling him to make something like that, which lowers the bar on the staff immensely (it's much easier to find examples then it is to described how things work).

    And sure, maybe crushing Vacuo wouldn't be helpful to Salem's plans. She could flood the city with poison gas instead, or crush Vale if it looks like it is going to intervene. The point is that having the staff does seriously increase what Salem can do even without extensive technical knowledge on her part.
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    I'm sorry did we 'see' Cinder's meeting with him in time locked space? Cos I sure don't recall seeing Cinder's meeting with him in time locked space. Also no, it was literally established they need some form of blue prints/explanation, that's canon:

    He can build you anything, but only if you can explain to him how. Like any craftsman, he'll need blueprints. Some sort of reference. It'll help if we have real world examples to show him.​

    Ignoring canon to make a criticism doesn't strengthen your argument, it just makes you look dishonest. Also as to your Vault example, remember how he made one based on that and then connected it all on pathways that led to an abyss? Super helpful that was, and that was for people he liked.

    You do grasp that killing the Maiden accomplishes literally nothing as to her plans right? And also that relies on her being able to explain how the poison works, how much, how is it dispersed, how does it even get where she wants it, how does she know he won't intentionally make it have an exceedingly quick recovery time, or only create it around her just to be petty? Or any other millions of things she either can't do do or can have turned against again her that make him unhelpful at best.

    Oh you mean Vale, the place with the other Relic she needs and that destroying might cost her the Relic forever if the access point is destroyed?
     
    One thing people love to point out is that, somehow, the 1000+ year old who easily manipulates people into doing what she wants and usually has planned ten steps ahead of the heroes would somehow crumble before Ambrosious' rules for the Staff.

    Like, if Ruby and Cinder were able to abuse loopholes, I'm pretty sure Salem could too.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    One thing people love to point out is that, somehow, the 1000+ year old who easily manipulates people into doing what she wants and usually has planned ten steps ahead of the heroes would somehow crumble before Ambrosious' rules for the Staff.

    Like, if Ruby and Cinder were able to abuse loopholes, I'm pretty sure Salem could too.
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    You do realize being able tp manipulate people is not the same thing as being technically minded right? Like the original post literally covers all of this, unless you have something new to add or a counter argument, I honestly have no idea what you thought this added to the discourse when it was one of the first things addressed in the original post, and nothing you said addresses the points raised.
     
    Zam said:
    He can build you anything, but only if you can explain to him how. Like any craftsman, he'll need blueprints. Some sort of reference. It'll help if we have real world examples to show him.
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    This is where everyone gets how the staff works wrong. Oz is not saying you need blueprints, references, and real world examples. He's saying you need blueprints, references or real world examples. Blueprints are not mandatory, they are one possible solution to the problem of explaining your request to Ambro. And in the same exact episode, we see the heroes get by without explicit blueprints.

    Ambrosius: You're going to have to tell me more about this central location. For starters, uh, where is it?

    Yang: Here. A place like these Vaults. Wherever they are, they're not part of Remnant. Only accessible if you know the right way in. Seems like a safe enough place for thousands of refugees.

    There's a distinct lack of anyone explaining how to create a vault in this episode. Or the scientific principles of teleportation. To get back the poison gas example, she doesn't need a chemistry degree if she can find a sample of the poison, she doesn't need to explain how to disperse it because she can create it pre-dispersed, and she doesn't need to provide a medical study of the effects of the poison on the human body because that last one has never been a requirement under any sane interpretation of the restrictions. Ambro has never needed to know what is going to happen after he makes something, or for you to explain fundamental scientific principles to him- we didn't see him ask how atoms work are before making solid objects.
     
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    Zam said:
    You do realize being able tp manipulate people is not the same thing as being technically minded right? Like the original post literally covers all of this, unless you have something new to add or a counter argument, I honestly have no idea what you thought this added to the discourse when it was one of the first things addressed in the original post, and nothing you said addresses the points raised.
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    More than that, a lot of how Salem manipulates people is based off their emotional weaknesses and issues. She doesn't really have any hooks for Ambrosis.

    Anyway, I expect that the staff is going to be a big plot point when the story gets back from the island, more so than the Last Question was.
     
    Zam said:
    You do realize being able tp manipulate people is not the same thing as being technically minded right? Like the original post literally covers all of this, unless you have something new to add or a counter argument, I honestly have no idea what you thought this added to the discourse when it was one of the first things addressed in the original post, and nothing you said addresses the points raised.
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    The original post is flawed because Salem magicing up a reference or scale model grimm is a perfectly valid way of satisfy Ambro's need for explanations.
     
    Love it when I write a whole post and then its mostly just ignored, love that, not annoying at all.
    mr_stibbons said:
    This is where everyone gets how the staff works wrong. Oz is not saying you need blueprints, references, and real world examples. He's saying you need blueprints, references or real world examples. Blueprints are not mandatory, they are one possible solution to the problem of explaining your request to Ambro. And in the same exact episode, we see the heroes get by without explicit blueprints.

    Ambrosius: You're going to have to tell me more about this central location. For starters, uh, where is it?

    Yang: Here. A place like these Vaults. Wherever they are, they're not part of Remnant. Only accessible if you know the right way in. Seems like a safe enough place for thousands of refugees.

    There's a distinct lack of anyone explaining how to create a vault in this episode. Or the scientific principles of teleportation. To get back the poison gas example, she doesn't need a chemistry degree if she can find a sample of the poison, she doesn't need to explain how to dispersevit because she can create it pre-dispersed, and she doesn't need to provide a medical study of the effects of the poison on the human body because that last one has never been a requirement under any sane interpretation of the restrictions. Ambro has never needed to know what is going to happen after he makes something, or for you to explain fundamental scientific principles to him- we didn't see him ask how atoms work are before making solid objects.
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    He explicitly lists them as a thing to use, your initial basis for your argument was that the need for blue prints or something for him to work off was overstated, even while the quote itself references them and highlights the need for them, or something of similar value in terms of detailing, which we have no evidence Salem can even provide to accomplish her goals.

    Yes because poison's are just floating around in easy access in her cobblestone Grimm castle that also totally work when dispersed. Also, that's awfully presumptions given Ambrosius had to be right in the middle of the city he was making fly/set on fire and that was already partially on fire and or had Gravity Dust woven into its base. The quick recovery time was a noted about Ambrosius screwing Salem's plan over, don't ignore the words I use in a bid to create counter examples to something I didn't say for a second time now. Also Ambrosius does require info given he understands he made a city fly, the place burn and portals open, so he's more than capable of being petty about it if he wants too and even Ozpin, who's a helluva a lot more experienced with these things than Salem is, was leery of dealing with him.

    mr_stibbons said:
    The original post is flawed because Salem magicing up a reference or scale model grimm is a perfectly valid way of satisfy Ambro's need for explanations.
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    Complexity plays a part in things, given he did need Penny's schematics and wasn't even sure what the end result would be.


    Sure! I'll just need coordinates and specs for each door, an explanation for bending space and time to account for the much greater traffic on one side, and the single point to the other.​

    Seriously, he is not that easy to use, let alone control.
     
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    mr_stibbons said:
    Oz is not saying you need blueprints, references, and real world examples. He's saying you need blueprints, references or real world examples.
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    ... What?

    How... How does this make sense? This is basically "I'm not saying it's aliens, but it's aliens."
    Zam said:
    You do realize being able tp manipulate people is not the same thing as being technically minded right? Like the original post literally covers all of this, unless you have something new to add or a counter argument, I honestly have no idea what you thought this added to the discourse when it was one of the first things addressed in the original post, and nothing you said addresses the points raised.
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    Because people like to play up Salem's intelligence and manipulation, but somehow when it comes to the staff suddenly she isn't smart enough for that?

    Like, she was able to manipulate a god into doing what she wants, set up plans for terrorist attacks that all worked except for the one in Mistral, but that was due to two idiots not sticking to it, and is able to make Ruby and Ironwood crumble with just a few choice words.

    The only solution would be if it's like the Lamp and she doesn't know how the Relic worked, since Cinder was the only person on her team to fully know how it works and I doubt she'd willy nilly give it away.

    Also, we saw Jinn sell out the heroes to Cinder because she asked despite knowing her Ill intent, so I don't know where this idea of Ambrosious screwing over Salem is coming from.
     
    Zam said:
    He explicitly lists them as a thing to use, your initial basis for your argument was that the need for blue prints or something for him to work off was overstated, even while the quote itself references them and highlights the need for them, or something of similar value in terms of detailing, which we have no evidence Salem can even provide to accomplish her goals.
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    Ozpin lists them as things that are needed, and then that rule is completely ignored. Remember how Penny turning human involved just telling him to "get creative" to handle the issue of her soul being separated from her body? There was no detailed plans or reference materials for that part.
     
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