RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Zam · Mar 3, 2022

gman391 said:
Honestly it's just how we topic pivot rather than have the four hundredth and twelfth fight about the usual RWBY bugbears.

God, Hiatus Madness is overtaking us all.

This too, and gods yes, I want this hiatus to end, or at least for Arrowfel content to come out.

LordYam · Mar 3, 2022

Some of them are insightful, and this one is to. At the same time there's an element of "I don't want to actually address the issue....look at the pretty monkey look at the pretty monkey".

Zam said:
Um, no, people explained how Weiss's backstory informed her words as well as how and why that allowed for a swifter shift in terms of personality than it might for someone else, which you persistently dismissed in favor of saying Weiss needed to suffer to learn slavery is bad.

I and others have been doing this for years, its one of the main ways discussions even happen on here, the fact you don't know that honestly beggars belief and leads me to wonder if you've ever actually spent any time here before deciding to come in to complain about Adam.

Yeah....no. The actual volume 1 was at the rushed out by the seat of it's pants so they DEFINITELY weren't putting as much thought as they were in later volumes. If the volume had been written when the crew was more experienced and had more resources to make the episodes longer/planned out I think it's safe to say that they would have opted to do the longer slower route.

Saying "Weiss's backstory informed her words as well as how and why that allowed for a swifter shift in terms of personality than it might for someone else" is just ass covering to avoid admitting that the writing in that particular area at that point in time was kinda weak. Even in the situation they describe Weiss would need a fair amount of being challenged to fully realize things (and even then it can be minor things where she realizes that okay maybe the system ISN'T really that fair".

In real life people DON'T just stop being racist. They have to undergo a lot of self reflection and challenge deeply preconceived notions to change, and even then it's a constant struggle to maintain. If someone is making those kinda casually racist comments they do need to have some form of challenge to their views.

LordYam · Mar 3, 2022

Part of the reason I brought up the lucifer example is because even people who ARE nice and genuinely noble can unwittingly buy into racist lines of thought. Chloe Decker is HARDLY a bad person; in many ways she's very admirable. But at the same time she does have a naive view of the system, which keeps her from realizing how bad things really are until the events of the episode prompt her take a look and go "oh shit".

Why should Weiss be any different?

Long story short, I think the people saying "oh it doesn't matter if it's rushed" are being at best overly forgiving and at worst cowardly for wanting to avoid discomfort.

Zam · Mar 3, 2022

LordYam said:
Some of them are insightful, and this one is to. At the same time there's an element of "I don't want to actually address the issue....look at the pretty monkey look at the pretty monkey".

Not wanting to repeat myself for the tenth time only to be ignored isn't refusing to address the issue, its not wanting to waste time shouting at a brick wall.

LordYam said:
Yeah....no. The actual volume 1 was at the rushed out by the seat of it's pants so they DEFINITELY weren't putting as much thought as they were in later volumes. If the volume had been written when the crew was more experienced and had more resources to make the episodes longer/planned out I think it's safe to say that they would have opted to do the longer slower route.

Saying "Weiss's backstory informed her words as well as how and why that allowed for a swifter shift in terms of personality than it might for someone else" is just ass covering to avoid admitting that the writing in that particular area at that point in time was kinda weak. Even in the situation they describe Weiss would need a fair amount of being challenged to fully realize things.

In real life people DON'T just stop being racist. They have to undergo a lot of self reflection and challenge deeply preconceived notions to change, and even then it's a constant struggle to maintain. If someone is making those kinda casually racist comments they do need to have some form of challenge to their views.

I think they would have told the same story just with more detail and depth.

No... its just I have already outlined the argument multiple times with scene to scene breakdowns you persistently dismiss so I don' want to waste the time doing it again.

Epsilon Rose · Mar 3, 2022

Zam said:
I and others have been doing this for years, its one of the main ways discussions even happen on here, the fact you don't know that honestly beggars belief and leads me to wonder if you've ever actually spent any time here before deciding to come in to complain about Adam.

A) You didn't discuss anything. You just posted the thread and moved on and you've done that repeatedly.

B) What is "here"? This forum? Yes, I've spent quite a bit of time on SV, I can't think of any other thread that acts the way you're describing. This thread in particular? Some, in so much as I've looked in a couple of times and originally came here to ask questions completely unrelated to Adam, but demanding people be familiar with whatever in thread quirks you like isn't reasonable and a lack of familiarity should not be that surprising.

More importantly, why are you constantly as rude as possible when people disagree with you or take issue with some of your behaviors?

LordYam said:
Some of them are insightful, and this one is to. At the same time there's an element of "I don't want to actually address the issue....look at the pretty monkey look at the pretty monkey".

It's the later part that annoys me. They can be interesting and this one, in particular, could have been relevant if it was actually discussed or considered in any way, rather than just dropped and abandoned.

Ironically, I think any analysis of parallels between Atlas and Atlas Shrugged would support the idea that Weiss was intended to start as casually racist and that her change was both too swift and to thorough. After all, if Atlas represents the rich and powerful "shrugging" at their responsibilities to the world and deluding themselves into believing everything is A-OK, because their floating paradise is so nice and clean, and Weiss is one of those rich people that came down from her ivory tower, then it stands to reason that her world view would be founded on the one that lead Atlas to shrug. Changing something that is fundamental should not be easy, even if you already know it has flaws, both because of how many other views are based on it and because of how subtle and far reaching its influence can be.

Pugman · Mar 3, 2022

Epsilon Rose said:
Could you please stop posting random links to tumbler threads? They don't seem to add much and the frequency is kind-of off putting.

Sometimes it kickstarts a discussion and sometimes it doesn't and sometimes we just want to share things were found interesting with fellow RWBY fans.
It's either this or we get into another endless back and forth like what is currently happening.

Zam said:
I and others have been doing this for years, its one of the main ways discussions even happen on here, the fact you don't know that honestly beggars belief and leads me to wonder if you've ever actually spent any time here before deciding to come in to complain about Adam.

gman391 said:
Honestly it's just how we topic pivot rather than have the four hundredth and twelfth fight about the usual RWBY bugbears.

God, Hiatus Madness is overtaking us all.

Basically this.

LordYam said:
They really didn't though. Their explanations boiled down to "I just want it this way" or "it would be uncomfortable and I don't want to be uncomfortable". At least one person argued that it would be impossible to enjoy the story if Weiss was a racist so they HAD to have her overcome it quickly. Bull fucking crap. That's LAZY.

I see you quickly removed that call out to me that was originally in this post, so let me correct you. What I say is not because "I don't want to be uncomfortable" but what I say is based on what I think works with the narrative and why CRWBY did something the way they did over the course of the show.
For this Weiss situation - as Zam, others, and myself have more or less told you and will keep telling you, it would of been pointless to keep shoving Weiss' face into the overall faunus story. Why? Because her story front to back is about her family. Yes faunus stuff is tangentially connected but that connection is through the personal antagonist in her life, Her Father. Weiss, once she allows herself to defrost and be open with others time and again shows the be a caring person who can quickly change her take on something and give it a chance. She gave Ruby a chance early into volume 1, and at the end of the same volume gave Blake a chance. In volume 3 she faced off with a guy whose father was run out of business by Weiss' father, but by the end of that battle she had earned his respect with a gutsy self sacrifice play.
As for a reason why Weiss would be different let me ask you, why CAN'T she be different? RWBY isn't real. It's an animated webseries and is Fantasy and Hope Punk. Why should it be anything like Lucifer? They are 2 different medias and genres.

Zam · Mar 3, 2022

Epsilon Rose said:
A) You didn't discuss anything. You just posted the thread and moved on and you've done that repeatedly.

B) What is "here"? This forum? Yes, I've spent quite a bit of time on SV, I can't think of any other thread that acts the way you're describing. This thread in particular? Some, in so much as I've looked in a couple of times and originally came here to ask questions completely unrelated to Adam, but demanding people be familiar with whatever in thread quirks you like isn't reasonable and a lack of familiarity should not be that surprising.

More importantly, why are you constantly as rude as possible when people disagree with you or take issue with some of your behaviors?

A: Because the post itself provided the point of interest for potential discourse, there was nothing for me to add, the previous two posts are literally just shit post jokes.

B: (Shrugs) Practically every page has tumblr posts and my only experience with you so far has been coming out of nowhere to complain about Adam.

I'm literally just matching my tone to yours.

Pugman said:
Sometimes it kickstarts a discussion and sometimes it doesn't and sometimes we just want to share things were found interesting with fellow RWBY fans.
It's either this or we get into another endless back and forth like what is currently happening.

More or less this, also they've been clogging up my tabs for three days while I waited for a chance to post them and I needed to clear some out.

Pugman said:
why CAN'T she be different?

Your whole post here was very insightful but this also reminds me of something RL.

Long story short, while not a 1 to 1 thing, I knew someone who had become quite alcoholic, to the point it was creating genuine trauma in their life and those around them. The person in question was not aware of the latter due to their own issues, then one day it sort of clicked, "Oh gods, I'm addict" and they stopped. Literally, cold turkey, haven't seen them touch a glass of wine or beet since and its been years.

So even if someone is deeply something, even if that person has been that way for a long time, its still not impossible for someone to very quickly shift around to being something else.

LordYam · Mar 3, 2022

Zam said:
Not wanting to repeat myself for the tenth time only to be ignored isn't refusing to address the issue, its not wanting to waste time shouting at a brick wall.

I think they would have told the same story just with more detail and depth.

No... its just I have already outlined the argument multiple times with scene to scene breakdowns you persistently dismiss so I don' want to waste the time doing it again.

1.) I read the argument. It's not convincing. Even casual racists need to get challenged on their views before they grow out of it, and as Epsilon pointed out the circumstances Weiss was in (the police WERE there to protect her, her sister DID get her position on merit, she didn't see many Faunus in positions of power, and her main exposure was the White Fang) means that while she wouldn't have been justifying her dad's douchebaggry she would have had a lot of casually racist views. And those kinda views WILL NOT go away unless the person's challenged on them in some form or another.

2.) I mean it took the widespread advent of video where police blatantly murdered black people without provocation for most white people to grasp "oh shit, maybe black people aren't overreacting when they say the police are constantly mistreating them." The white people who came to that realization weren't even necessarily klan hood wearing lunatics, but because they were insulated from cruelty they had a lot of casually racist views.

3.) Or in another case; two people (a male and female) worked for a video game company. The male wasn't sexist, but he was still DEEPLY unaware of how bad things were. His coworker and made some suggestions that were rejected; she told him "make the same suggestions in a few days to the same people." The guy did.....and the bosses immediately praised them as genius. The male coworker promptly burst into tears when he realized that his friend was actually right about the sexism she faced.

This is a guy who was NOT sexist and was STILL Blindsided by just how bad the problem was. In that case yeah Weiss WOULD Need to be forcibly confronted with it to realize "okay maybe the system ISN'T fair

Pugman said:
Sometimes it kickstarts a discussion and sometimes it doesn't and sometimes we just want to share things were found interesting with fellow RWBY fans.
It's either this or we get into another endless back and forth like what is currently happening.

Basically this.

I see you quickly removed that call out to me that was originally in this post, so let me correct you. What I say is not because "I don't want to be uncomfortable" but what I say is based on what I think works with the narrative and why CRWBY did something the way they did over the course of the show.
For this Weiss situation - as Zam, others, and myself have more or less told you and will keep telling you, it would of been pointless to keep shoving Weiss' face into the overall faunus story. Why? Because her story front to back is about her family. Yes faunus stuff is tangentially connected but that connection is through the personal antagonist in her life, Her Father. Weiss, once she allows herself to defrost and be open with others time and again shows the be a caring person who can quickly change her take on something and give it a chance. She gave Ruby a chance early into volume 1, and at the end of the same volume gave Blake a chance. In volume 3 she faced off with a guy whose father was run out of business by Weiss' father, but by the end of that battle she had earned his respect with a gutsy self sacrifice play.
As for a reason why Weiss would be different let me ask you, why CAN'T she be different? RWBY isn't real. It's an animated webseries and is Fantasy and Hope Punk. Why should it be anything like Lucifer? They are 2 different medias and genres.

1.) Because if a person has casually racist views they WILL NOT GROW OUT OF THEM UNLESS THEY'RE ACTUALLY CHALLENGED. The show made the decision to have Weiss be casually racist, so they were obligated to do the actual legwork rather than taking the easy way out; Having her just stop was the coward's way out.

2.) Stuff like racism needs to be handled sensitively regardless of whether or not it's in a fantasy show, and if a show like Lucifer (that is often VERY silly) can tackle it by having the likable main female (who's far less racist than Weiss) confront a preconceived notion (in one episode mind you) so can RWBY. You're just being cowardly.

Pugman · Mar 3, 2022

Zam said:
Your whole post here was very insightful but this also reminds me of something RL.

Long story short, while not a 1 to 1 thing, I knew someone who had become quite alcoholic, to the point it was creating genuine trauma in their life and those around them. The person in question was not aware of the latter due to their own issues, then one day it sort of clicked, "Oh gods, I'm addict" and they stopped. Literally, cold turkey, haven't seen them touch a glass of wine or beet since and its been years.

So even if someone is deeply something, even if that person has been that way for a long time, its still not impossible for someone to very quickly shift around to being something else.

Let us also not forget that Qrow gave up alcohol cold turkey, too, after the crew left Argus.

LordYam · Mar 3, 2022

Zam said:
A: Because the post itself provided the point of interest for potential discourse, there was nothing for me to add, the previous two posts are literally just shit post jokes.

B: (Shrugs) Practically every page has tumblr posts and my only experience with you so far has been coming out of nowhere to complain about Adam.

I'm literally just matching my tone to yours.

More or less this, also they've been clogging up my tabs for three days while I waited for a chance to post them and I needed to clear some out.

Your whole post here was very insightful but this also reminds me of something RL.

Long story short, while not a 1 to 1 thing, I knew someone who had become quite alcoholic, to the point it was creating genuine trauma in their life and those around them. The person in question was not aware of the latter due to their own issues, then one day it sort of clicked, "Oh gods, I'm addict" and they stopped. Literally, cold turkey, haven't seen them touch a glass of wine or beet since and its been years.

So even if someone is deeply something, even if that person has been that way for a long time, its still not impossible for someone to very quickly shift around to being something else.

That doesn't happen very often; most of the time it takes long painful struggles, and even when they have the realization they have to constantly work to maintain it. The person you know is probably CONSTANTLY struggling with the temptation.

LordYam · Mar 3, 2022

Pugman said:
Let us also not forget that Qrow gave up alcohol cold turkey, too, after the crew left Argus.

Except that again, people usually DON'T just overcome things like that. My uncle was addicted to smoking for 35 years before he quit and it was quite a struggle to pull it off.

As for why Weiss can't be different? Because in this case being different is just lazy writing (hell even pulling the "it's fantasy") is kind of a cowardly dodge as well.

Zam · Mar 3, 2022

LordYam said:
1.) I read the argument. It's not convincing. Even casual racists need to get challenged on their views before they grow out of it, and as Epsilon pointed out the circumstances Weiss was in (the police WERE there to protect her, her sister DID get her position on merit, she didn't see many Faunus in positions of power, and her main exposure was the White Fang) means that while she wouldn't have been justifying her dad's douchebaggry she would have had a lot of casually racist views. And those kinda views WILL NOT go away unless the person's challenged on them in some form or another.

2.) I mean it took the widespread advent of video where police blatantly murdered black people without provocation for most white people to grasp "oh shit, maybe black people aren't overreacting when they say the police are constantly mistreating them." The white people who came to that realization weren't even necessarily klan hood wearing lunatics, but because they were insulated from cruelty they had a lot of casually racist views.

3.) Or in another case; two people (a male and female) worked for a video game company. The male wasn't sexist, but he was still DEEPLY unaware of how bad things were. His coworker and made some suggestions that were rejected; she told him "make the same suggestions in a few days to the same people." The guy did.....and the bosses immediately praised them as genius. The male coworker promptly burst into tears when he realized that his friend was actually right about the sexism she faced.

This is a guy who was NOT sexist and was STILL Blindsided by just how bad the problem was. In that case yeah Weiss WOULD Need to be forcibly confronted with it to realize "okay maybe the system ISN'T fair

1: You say you read it yet you couldn't even recreate it when trying to provide an example of it so yeah no, hard disagree.

2: Which completely ignores the existence of abolitionists during the era of slavery, your world view doesn't allow for any nuance or internal growth.

3: Yeah I heard that story too, its not terribly relevant so????

LordYam said:
That doesn't happen very often; most of the time it takes long painful struggles, and even when they have the realization they have to constantly work to maintain it. The person you know is probably CONSTANTLY struggling with the temptation.

But it does happen.

They literally can't even stand the smell of alcohol anymore.

Pugman · Mar 3, 2022

oh joy, double posting.

anyway let's try something else
Tortuga. What headcannons do we have for them?

Grey Rook · Mar 3, 2022

Epsilon Rose said:
Could you please stop posting random links to tumbler threads? They don't seem to add much and the frequency is kind-of off putting.

I like them. They tend to provide an interesting perspective on the show, pointing out details or interpretations that flew over my head.

Zam · Mar 3, 2022

So I actually have something to add to this one:

View: https://fadedneonzzz.tumblr.com/post/677580685940228096/

Namely about how Cinder & Mercury have a rather similar set of coping mechanisms.

Mercury talks about his dads abuse made him "strong", while when Cinder killed Madam she talked about how thanks to Madam, she is now "everything".

They know they suffered, and suffered a lot, and they want all that time spent trapped, abused and in bondage to have meaning, for it to have given them something, rather than just pain.

Or to quote Bojack Horseman (The show) Otherwise, all that trauma, was just trauma.

gman391 · Mar 3, 2022

Pugman said:
oh joy, double posting.

anyway let's try something else
Tortuga. What headcannons do we have for them?

I think she looked like a Jack Sparrow expy purely on the basis of her name alone. I have no proof that she looks like the Jester of Tortuga, but I'll ride that bomb down.

She was also not raised in Atlas and thus had healthy emotional coping mechanisms.

Pugman · Mar 3, 2022

gman391 said:
She was also not raised in Atlas and thus had healthy emotional coping mechanisms.

And for that they had to die!

du Dun DUUUUUUUUN!!!

LordYam · Mar 3, 2022

Zam said:
1: You say you read it yet you couldn't even recreate it when trying to provide an example of it so yeah no, hard disagree.

2: Which completely ignores the existence of abolitionists during the era of slavery, your world view doesn't allow for any nuance or internal growth.

3: Yeah I heard that story too, its not terribly relevant so????

But it does happen.

They literally can't even stand the smell of alcohol anymore.

1.) I understood it fine. Others also explained the problem. If you look at real people who stopped being racist they almost NEVER just stopped; they had to undergo a lot of reflection and change. So no, the argument you and the others made was just kinda crap.

2.) Even internal growth requires self reflection on some level, or at the very least thinking about it. A lot of abolitionists had to think long and hard to realize it, and a fair number required more of a push than others (John Newton).

3.) If even NON bigoted people can be blissfully unaware of a problem until they're confronted, casual racists would be even MORE unwilling to face it unless they were directly forced to do so.

4.) Ok, so you found the 1 in 1000 case where that actually happened. Doesn't make it common. Which is why many viewers will only be convinced if a racist character changes through character development and self reflection.

You find a quick change believable; I don't. I also think that Pugman pulling the "IT'S FANTASY SO WHY SHOULD IT DELVE INTO IT" is just him being a cowardly little shit.

Grey Rook said:
I like them. They tend to provide an interesting perspective on the show, pointing out details or interpretations that flew over my head.

They can be interesting you're right. But if it's done to avoid addressing a point it's just cowardly, hence the "look at the pretty monkey" analogy I made earlier.

Pugman · Mar 3, 2022

Let's try again
Tortuga. Faunus or just a human with a turtle/tortoise aesthetic?

LordYam · Mar 3, 2022

oh no, you don't get to worm out of it that easily. You said point blank

"RWBY isn't real. It's an animated webseries and is Fantasy and Hope Punk. Why should it be anything like Lucifer? They are 2 different medias and genres."

That's just you being a coward. If a story handles topics from the real world it MUST handle them intelligently even if the story itself is fantasy, and RWBY is no exception. If Lucifer (Which is VERY silly) can handle that, so can RWBY. Saying otherwise is just trying to avoid feeling uncomfortable

Pulling the "It's not real" is always a cowardly dodge to avoid addressing it. So no. You're not being principled so much as you're being a coward.

Pugman · Mar 3, 2022

Yam.
I am going to tell you this now and I am only going to say this once.
Back off and move on.
We do NOT need mods coming back in here.

I am trying to move this thread to something else to talk about before things get to heated and this thread gets locked down or worse.

Epsilon Rose · Mar 3, 2022

LordYam said:
This is a guy who was NOT sexist and was STILL Blindsided by just how bad the problem was. In that case yeah Weiss WOULD Need to be forcibly confronted with it to realize "okay maybe the system ISN'T fair

Having her blindsided by bits of casual racism or systemic injustices that she didn't even realize were racist/unjust would also tie in well with recurring themes of inequality and classism we see throughout the show, particularly during the mantel arc we she could have been used to highlight institutions that she took for granted, and thought were fair/normal, but which are deeply problematic. It would also add more depth to Ironwoods treatment of Mantel and Winters acceptance of that treatment, since Winter is another person who recognized their father's racism, but who has not been forced to confront its implications.

Pugman said:
Let us also not forget that Qrow gave up alcohol cold turkey, too, after the crew left Argus.

I'm legitimately not sure how I feel about that one. On the one hand, having him quit cold turkey makes a lot of sense from a story writing perspective and there was a decent amount of focus given to his continued struggles.

On the other hand, alcohol withdrawal can be fatal. The only reason my old neighbor didn't die trying the same thing is because I heard him screaming, in agony, in the middle of the night and called for help. ... I'd rather not encourage more people to try it without medical supervision.

Zam said:
I'm literally just matching my tone to yours.

Your first response to me (after the timeline stuff that originally brought me here) was to accuse me of wanting to lionize "a child groomer and abuser," when I was rather explicit about not wanting to lionize Adam and simply talking about how he could have been used more effectively as a villain.

Zam said:
How exactly is that not relevant? There is literally no inherent need for him to have those things when Ilia and Sienna and Blake have them.

You wanting a child grooming abuser and traitor to e lionized doesn't mean its good writing or desirable.

That is not matching my tone and your behavior throughout that entire discussion was both deeply insulting and incredibly dismissive.

Zam said:
So I actually have something to add to this one:

View: https://fadedneonzzz.tumblr.com/post/677580685940228096/

Namely about how Cinder & Mercury have a rather similar set of coping mechanisms.

Mercury talks about his dads abuse made him "strong", while when Cinder killed Madam she talked about how thanks to Madam, she is now "everything".

They know they suffered, and suffered a lot, and they want all that time spent trapped, abused and in bondage to have meaning, for it to have given them something, rather than just pain.

Or to quote Bojack Horseman (The show) Otherwise, all that trauma, was just trauma.

That is an interesting parallel and one I wouldn't have thought of.

On reflection, I think the same theme —characters searching for meaning, or some justification, for the suffering they've gone through— occurs in a few more characters, albeit with very different expressions. For example, Qrow seeks to attribute all of the suffering he's experienced to his semblance, even when it couldn't possibly be the cause. It's not the same kind of, silver lining, search for a greater reason that Cinder and Mercury adopted, but it is an attempt to make the world seem less random and unfair: It's all his fault.

Raven also has her "survival of the fittest" thing, which she seems to have re-embraced after learning about Salem and doubled down on after Summer's disappearance.

Arguably, Ozpin has taken a similar path, attributing many of his own failures and shortcomings to either Salem or mortals, in general. The biggest difference here is that he's not trying to make the world seem less random, just less out of his control.

Hmm. Now I'm wondering if there are any other characters who have done something similar.

gman391 · Mar 3, 2022

Okay, listen, and I'm sorry if this comes across as condescending.

If RWBY starting out had the budget, the time and the writing that we all wished they had, they probably would have done that. But this whole Weiss thing? Is not beating a dead horse. The horse has been turned into glue, used to put together a balsa wood model plane, which was then launched into the fire and turned into ashes. These ashes were then used as soap to wash a window. Okay the metaphor has gotten away from me at this point. However, I want it to be clear that this is a very old, very dated, and very done take. So is the Adam take, so is literally everything about Ironwood at this point.

This isn't meaningful criticism, because we can't change how they did the show nearly a decade back. If you sat down Miles and Kerry now they'd probably agree with you that they went too fast on that. That if they had a chance to do it over again they would do a lot of things differently. However the truth is that they didn't have the time or budget to do the in depth character work too show Weiss coming to terms. They followed the at the time generic 'person realizes they were racist and stops' because it was coming from a place much more naïve and hopeful. It was a very special episode right at the tail end where those stop being something people accepted uncritically. It's a trope that hasn't aged well in any media, and one that I'm sure that the writers desperately wish they hadn't used in hindsight.

They hadn't had 2016 to make them realize that no racists don't just stop because you tell them they're being racist, they just insist you're committing reverse racism or whatever. They hadn't had years to hone their craft and become better writers. Which is one of the things I really appreciate about the show. While I don't agree with all of their writing choices, you can visibly see Miles and Kerry becoming better writers over time and gaining confidence in themselves. Thing is that they made the jump from comedy writing to more serious action fair and they stumbled in the first few seasons, kind of a lot. That's natural, that's human. Especially when jumping to a new style and genre that's more or less unfamiliar to you but you're doing it for your friend.

You can say they should have done more and you're completely right in that feeling. They definitely could have done better, and should have done better. I'm not going to say it's fair for it's day or anything like that. That there were better ways to handle all those plotlines isn't in dispute. However, I will suggest that if we crucify people for trying and failing to get something right. We're not going to have any one try at all. CRWBY definitely made a lot of mistakes. They've gotten better as the years went on, and that's really all you can ask, that they try to be better. Now it might not be enough, they and everyone still has to keep trying to be better. There is no moment of purity when you are free of your biases and your various isms to ascend to universalist zen 'do no wrong' in content creating. That's just not how people work, the is no media in existence which doesn't have some problematic implications baked into it. Could they have been better? Sure could, that would have been nice. But the CRWBY of 2022 is not the CRWBY of 2013 and it's important to acknowledge that while still advocating for them and ourselves to be better.

But here is the thing you really need to understand on the perennial hot topics of Adam, Racism and Ironwood. People aren't open to changing their opinions anymore on it anymore. There's just too much scar tissue from the running battle that has been the RWBY Fandom more or less since Monty died. Too many fights where it wasn't about exchanging ideas and coming to shared ideas, but sharpening word shivs on each other until one of us fucking broke and left the fandom. Too many hot takes from people who did the barest surface level reading in order to confirm what their popular friend told them about RWBY (That it was bad) There's not really room for the kind of debate you want to have. People are dug in, they had to be if they wanted to stay in the fandom.

So please, for the love of Zwei

Please stop sharpening your word shivs on people.

Zam · Mar 3, 2022

gman391 said:
She was also not raised in Atlas and thus had healthy emotional coping mechanisms.

Why is it always the good that die young! (Sobs) XD

LordYam said:
You find a quick change believable; I don't.

Sorry but going so far as to describe Pugman as a

LordYam said:
cowardly little shit.

is a bridge too far, though as usual you've ignored what was actually said to create your own fictional version of my post to argue against, which is also annoying.

Epsilon Rose said:
Your first response to me (after the timeline stuff that originally brought me here) was to accuse me of wanting to lionize "a child groomer and abuser," when I was rather explicit about not wanting to lionize Adam and simply talking about how he could have been used more effectively as a villain.

I already outlined explicitly how I reached that conclusion by utilizing the specific language your initial post used and your suggested goal of rewriting Adam in favor of any of the other characters who fit the role better and wouldn't undermine Blake's own arc by being written as such.

Epsilon Rose said:
That is an interesting parallel and one I wouldn't have thought of.

On reflection, I think the same theme —characters searching for meaning, or some justification, for the suffering they've gone through— occurs in a few more characters, albeit with very different expressions. For example, Qrow seeks to attribute all of the suffering he's experienced to his semblance, even when it couldn't possibly be the cause. It's not the same kind of, silver lining, search for a greater reason that Cinder and Mercury adopted, but it is an attempt to make the world seem less random and unfair: It's all his fault.

Raven also has her "survival of the fittest" thing, which she seems to have re-embraced after learning about Salem and doubled down on after Summer's disappearance.

Arguably, Ozpin has taken a similar path, attributing many of his own failures and shortcomings to either Salem or mortals, in general. The biggest difference here is that he's not trying to make the world seem less random, just less out of his control.

Hmm. Now I'm wondering if there are any other characters who have done something similar.

Thanks, I legitimately appreciate you saying that.

That's a good point there, and in some regards one could see his initial dedication to Ozpin as following a similar through-line, IE, he feels he's cursed and a determinant but through Ozpin he can make something worthwhile out of himself, which likely played into why the war being nothing more than a stalling tactic hit him so hard.

I think Summer died after Raven rejoined the group, but otherwise, agreed, the fact she went back to a place she likely didn't exactly have fond memories of because the familiarity of it was better than the existential dread fits well, especially with Tyrian's "You're too afraid to leave it".

Ozpin I think is a bit trickier, though more cos his brain is naturally gonna be a bit weird and he's got layers and layers of stuff obstuficating what he's really thinking even at the best of times. By I do like the idea of him seeking a sense of control in the world, it manifests well with how he handles things, or more, handled things.

Hmm, its tricky to say, ironically Salem is sort of like an inversion I am thinking she knows what she went through was unjust and seemingly done by mere chance or for petty reasons and resents it, leading her to rage against the heavens.

LordYam · Mar 3, 2022

gman391 said:
Okay, listen, and I'm sorry if this comes across as condescending.

If RWBY starting out had the budget, the time and the writing that we all wished they had, they probably would have done that. But this whole Weiss thing? Is not beating a dead horse. The horse has been turned into glue, used to put together a balsa wood model plane, which was then launched into the fire and turned into ashes. These ashes were then used as soap to wash a window. Okay the metaphor has gotten away from me at this point. However, I want it to be clear that this is a very old, very dated, and very done take. So is the Adam take, so is literally everything about Ironwood at this point.

This isn't meaningful criticism, because we can't change how they did the show nearly a decade back. If you sat down Miles and Kerry now they'd probably agree with you that they went too fast on that. That if they had a chance to do it over again they would do a lot of things differently. However the truth is that they didn't have the time or budget to do the in depth character work too show Weiss coming to terms. They followed the at the time generic 'person realizes they were racist and stops' because it was coming from a place much more naïve and hopeful. It was a very special episode right at the tail end where those stop being something people accepted uncritically. It's a trope that hasn't aged well in any media, and one that I'm sure that the writers desperately wish they hadn't used in hindsight.

They hadn't had 2016 to make them realize that no racists don't just stop because you tell them they're being racist, they just insist you're committing reverse racism or whatever. They hadn't had years to hone their craft and become better writers. Which is one of the things I really appreciate about the show. While I don't agree with all of their writing choices, you can visibly see Miles and Kerry becoming better writers over time and gaining confidence in themselves. Thing is that they made the jump from comedy writing to more serious action fair and they stumbled in the first few seasons, kind of a lot. That's natural, that's human. Especially when jumping to a new style and genre that's more or less unfamiliar to you but you're doing it for your friend.

You can say they should have done more and you're completely right in that feeling. They definitely could have done better, and should have done better. I'm not going to say it's fair for it's day or anything like that. That there were better ways to handle all those plotlines isn't in dispute. However, I will suggest that if we crucify people for trying and failing to get something right. We're not going to have any one try at all. CRWBY definitely made a lot of mistakes. They've gotten better as the years went on, and that's really all you can ask, that they try to be better. Now it might not be enough, they and everyone still has to keep trying to be better. There is no moment of purity when you are free of your biases and your various isms to ascend to universalist zen 'do no wrong' in content creating. That's just not how people work, the is no media in existence which doesn't have some problematic implications baked into it. Could they have been better? Sure could, that would have been nice. But the CRWBY of 2022 is not the CRWBY of 2013 and it's important to acknowledge that while still advocating for them and ourselves to be better.

But here is the thing you really need to understand on the perennial hot topics of Adam, Racism and Ironwood. People aren't open to changing their opinions anymore on it anymore. There's just too much scar tissue from the running battle that has been the RWBY Fandom more or less since Monty died. Too many fights where it wasn't about exchanging ideas and coming to shared ideas, but sharpening word shivs on each other until one of us fucking broke and left the fandom. Too many hot takes from people who did the barest surface level reading in order to confirm what their popular friend told them about RWBY (That it was bad) There's not really room for the kind of debate you want to have. People are dug in, they had to be if they wanted to stay in the fandom.

So please, for the love of Zwei

Please stop sharpening your word shivs on people.

I'm not disputing that the haters have been shallow, and a lot of people really don't like to get nuance (a lot of people got pissy when I pointed out that real groups like the black panthers had people just like Adam). At the same time many of the fans are now refusing to brook even minor or warranted criticism and that is ALWAYS an act of weakness no matter what reason you have.

I do admire how the story and writing has grown. The later volumes are absolutely better than the older ones. Still would have been nice to see the same quality throughout, and I think some of the people were trying to retroactively explain why the earlier rougher writing wasn't really THAT bad because they still like the earlier stuff and don't like it when people say something's flawed.

The Dresden Files (a series I enjoy) had a VERY rough start. Everyone agrees the first two books (and possibly book 3) were kinda shit. The fans still like certain points but they happily admit that the earlier stuff is kinda crap. It felt like some of the fans in this thread liked the earlier volumes but didn't want to admit that they were in many ways deeply flawed and so were retroactively trying to say that "oh it wasn't THAT bad you're just being a hater" rather than admitting that, while there was plenty to love, there was also a lot to genuinely criticize. Hell I'VE fallen into that trap myself. I was so scared the OT star wars trilogy wouldn't hold up that I wouldn't really listen to criticism of it. Than I rewatched it and found it still held up despite the flaws that I largely stopped being so afraid (though I still do fall into that mindset at times.)

There's definitely that kind of attitude with a lot of the supporters

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Good Civ Inspector

Banned Forever

Banned Forever

The King of Unrest

Banned Forever

Banned Forever

Banned Forever

Genuine Nerd

Banned Forever

Banned Forever

The King of Unrest

Banned Forever