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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Honestly I think one of the things that always gets me about the whole "Ruby will lecture the gods" or "The gods will be impressed" or anything along those lines is that its based on the gods being reasonable.

    Even ignoring that the creators straight up said they based them on Greek gods (a bunch of largely incestuous, drunken rapists and vengeful murderers), the fact is neither god is established as well inclined towards stuff like empathy, self reflection or the simple act of listening the moment they don't like what they are hearing.

    A grieving abuse victim and widow snaps at Light and he bails.
    Darkness goes out of his way to be threatening until his ego is stroked.
    When Darkness calls his brother on how unbalanced their arrangement is, Light doesn't address it and just shifts his brothers focus on to being angry at Salem.
    Darkness kills everyone for the actions of a few that were not even a threat to him then blows up the moon for shits and giggles.
    Light has, as noted, threatened to commit planetary genocide yet again, after secretly violating those same rules he chastised his brother about breaking (Again) and was extremely deceptive to Ozpin about the circumstances of the last worlds end, Salem and everything else.

    Nothing in their characters frame them as liable to stand there and take it at the sign of even a mild rebuke, and they can't even get along with each other properly unless one is at a total disadvantage or if they have some other target for their issues. Why on Earth or Remnant do people think they'll be at all understanding with people in general, let alone inclined to be disagreed with.
     
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    Zam said:
    Honestly I think one of the things that always gets me about the whole "Ruby will lecture the gods" or "The gods will be impressed" or anything along those lines is that its based on the gods being reasonable.
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    Not to mention it'd be also hypocritical given that they just spent two entire volumes (and a half if we count Cordovin) resisting an authoritarian and rebelling against them, with the Gods being just as much control freaks as Ironwood was (to the point where they both threatened nuclear action if they don't get what they want).
     
    That's another thing, the idea that cos they are gods, or cos of their power the cast shouldn't or can't do anything about them, when RWBY's got a recurring them of standing against impossible odds and authority figures who abuse their power or threaten to harm others.

    Speaking of that, Salem may not realize it but she picked up a lot from the gods and her father over time, or more, came to take on those traits regardless:

    View: https://aspiringwarriorlibrarian.tumblr.com/post/675296225511227392/
     
    Zam said:
    Why shouldn't she?
    I mean technically the gods at least have the power to do that they just don't want to, but realistically speaking cos other people aren't unique existences like her.
    She died once already, Ozma died and was crammed back into life, Salem is literally immortal.
    Summer who is seemingly not dead. Pyrrha who isn't a magical Maiden Robot.
    I know you probably think this all sounds very poetic and deep but it mostly comes off as though you didn't bother to read anything and are just saying standard lines that anyone says when someone dies over having an actual argument.
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    In the Lord of the Rings mythos the gods refused to make anyone (even the Elves) immortal because they realized it could have a lot of problems, and if you bring back ONE person it could set a bad precedent. So I can kinda see where the gods are coming from.
     
    LordYam said:
    In the Lord of the Rings mythos the gods refused to make anyone (even the Elves) immortal because they realized it could have a lot of problems, and if you bring back ONE person it could set a bad precedent. So I can kinda see where the gods are coming from.
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    The issue here is these gods 'did' make someone immortal, 'did' bring someone back (Twice no less, just under different circumstances and without consulting the other) Lord of the Rings as I understand it has one god, a judeo christian god stand in who's meant to be all good, while the Remnant Gods are based on the Greek one's. So I feel the comparison doesn't really work.
     
    Zam said:
    The issue here is these gods 'did' make someone immortal, 'did' bring someone back (Twice no less, just under different circumstances and without consulting the other) Lord of the Rings as I understand it has one god, a judeo christian god stand in who's meant to be all good, while the Remnant Gods are based on the Greek one's. So I feel the comparison doesn't really work.
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    That and they thought making her immortal was the best solution rather than the easier route of just offing her or even just killing her off but putting her in some dark void of an afterlife if they wanted to punish her.

    Making someone immortal who is extremely salty at you is only gonna bite you in the ass.
     
    Zam said:
    The issue here is these gods 'did' make someone immortal, 'did' bring someone back (Twice no less, just under different circumstances and without consulting the other) Lord of the Rings as I understand it has one god, a judeo christian god stand in who's meant to be all good, while the Remnant Gods are based on the Greek one's. So I feel the comparison doesn't really work.
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    It's more that death IS needed for life, and just bringing someone back could in turn set a really bad precedence.
     
    Zam said:
    I know some dislike this idea or consider it childish but I think this series of posts do a neat breakdown on why it has thematic potential. Also as noted, Ozma and Salem, plus the gods are active agents in the world, not omnipresent author narrators and given stories about stories can even have those be fillable, I find anyone going "Yeah but they said this so you're wrong" as the whole argument to be kinda weak but anyway:

    [snip]
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    I want to believe what's laid out in these posts is the intent here. There's a substantive amount of theming going on that I wouldn't particularly be surprised that's what's going on here. Obviously, like most theories, you'll never know until it happens, so I really don't want to get my hopes up in case it turns out to be wrong... But I want to believe.

    Fundamentally, all you really need to bring back a dead character back to life is a writer wanting it to happen. Whether that's a cheap development or not depends entirely on what your audience expects and how you present it all. Zam's completely right - the gods playing tug-of-war on Ozpin's soul and then eventually forcing him to reincarnate continuously essentially opened the narrative door of allowing resurrection to happen. It suddenly became possible, even if only for two godlike entities. And we knew that humans already were experimenting on Aura and artificial life all the way back in volume 3 when the aura transferral machine was revealed - souls can be moved around.

    In light of this, and her being a robot person to begin with, Penny coming back the first time wasn't far out of left field. Her soul had a container, and unlike a human's that container was a bit more stable. If anything, what really surprised people was the exact way they showed she was alive, at the start of volume 7. And a year ago when Volume 8 wrapped up we saw a few theories of how Penny could come back, and they were actually plausible - and still are. The door is open, we only need to find it. I'd put my money on the Aura Transferral Machine being involved, given how it's not actually been used yet.

    On a concrete thematic level, the gods were 100% having their cake and eating it too, doing whatever they want to the beings they created because they can. And most certainly, the narrative has been stressing that it is people who are helping one another with the options given to them. We're definitely going in a direction that's questioning what is or isn't exactly possible.
     
    LordYam said:
    It's more that death IS needed for life, and just bringing someone back could in turn set a really bad precedence.
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    That's an entirely separate argument and as I've noted previously, Remnant does not inherently operate on these rules, our idea of the world does because that's how life evolved, but Remnant was crafted by deities who can make shit immortal. There is literally no need for death, and they have no issue violation their own rules when it suits them, so arguing its necessary when its clearly an engineered issue over a natural one feels inaccurate to me.
    Parabola said:
    I want to believe what's laid out in these posts is the intent here. There's a substantive amount of theming going on that I wouldn't particularly be surprised that's what's going on here. Obviously, like most theories, you'll never know until it happens, so I really don't want to get my hopes up in case it turns out to be wrong... But I want to believe.

    Fundamentally, all you really need to bring back a dead character back to life is a writer wanting it to happen. Whether that's a cheap development or not depends entirely on what your audience expects and how you present it all. Zam's completely right - the gods playing tug-of-war on Ozpin's soul and then eventually forcing him to reincarnate continuously essentially opened the narrative door of allowing resurrection to happen. It suddenly became possible, even if only for two godlike entities. And we knew that humans already were experimenting on Aura and artificial life all the way back in volume 3 when the aura transferral machine was revealed - souls can be moved around.

    In light of this, and her being a robot person to begin with, Penny coming back the first time wasn't far out of left field. Her soul had a container, and unlike a human's that container was a bit more stable. If anything, what really surprised people was the exact way they showed she was alive, at the start of volume 7. And a year ago when Volume 8 wrapped up we saw a few theories of how Penny could come back, and they were actually plausible - and still are. The door is open, we only need to find it. I'd put my money on the Aura Transferral Machine being involved, given how it's not actually been used yet.

    On a concrete thematic level, the gods were 100% having their cake and eating it too, doing whatever they want to the beings they created because they can. And most certainly, the narrative has been stressing that it is people who are helping one another with the options given to them. We're definitely going in a direction that's questioning what is or isn't exactly possible.
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    That's totally air, I am less invested as while I like Penny I was not as attached to her as some other viewers, but I like the overall theme/idea behind it and think it can vibe well with the setting and cast.

    That's an excellent set of insights and breakdowns on how casual ressurection was treated between them and the fact that, yeah, Penny was brought back and the soul is not something incomprehensible and out of reach here, Pietro literally helped sire a wholly new one via tech and a piece of himself after all.

    Very well said there and not necessarily impossible either, as noted I'm less attached so I haven't thought much about it but I think there's a few avenues available to be sure.

    Great conclusion there!
     
    Zam said:
    That's an excellent set of insights and breakdowns on how casual ressurection was treated between them and the fact that, yeah, Penny was brought back and the soul is not something incomprehensible and out of reach here, Pietro literally helped sire a wholly new one via tech and a piece of himself after all.
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    Honestly I think it may be interesting if Pietro does try to bring back Penny, using the last of his own aura to do it, but the one created isn't her but a sister of some sort, or she's incomplete, and if RWBY and Jaune and maybe Neo come back from an afterlife of some sort they have the rest to make her Penny again.

    Or it leads to a robo-Pyrrha or something, both would be interesting. The Penny one would be the more likely of the two though.
     
    Transplanting this, so this is gonna be a couple posts stitched together

    one of the many, CCTS alternatives would be cheap mass producible hot air or lifting gas balloon based aerostats,
    or simple solar powered drones flying orbit in a grid, allowing the local net to grow into the borders of neighboring Kingdoms strengthening the CCT network by other means.


    If orbit is demanded,

    it's just possible they could throw unpowered radio reflectors into low orbit with dust powered ground to orbit mass driver, basically just a mirror for different bands of light. Dust may fail out side of Remnants Biosphere but nothing suggest inertia stops cold with it

    had a thought or two, spring powered clockwork and other inertia batteries should power things without dust , mechanical memory allows for instruction to be encoded if not changed, so we can script actions for after launch, maybe use the surface area of a expanded reflector as a surface to skip off the atmosphere

    as for hitting yourself? start the projectile at the bottom of the ocean and lift the end of barrel into the sky to a altitude that allows for a gravity turn at launch level. Use grav dust to accelerate the projectile avoid the magnetic issues for the most part. use any one of the myriad ray guns to burn a void thru the remain atmosphere between the end of barrel and the target orbit


    Maybe use the above to throw a reflector into the same orbit as the planet but ahead use it to bounce and just eat the lag till better options are devloped, maybe a laser launch system?
     
    Rabe said:
    Transplanting this, so this is gonna be a couple posts stitched together

    one of the many, CCTS alternatives would be cheap mass producible hot air or lifting gas balloon based aerostats,
    or simple solar powered drones flying orbit in a grid, allowing the local net to grow into the borders of neighboring Kingdoms strengthening the CCT network by other means.


    If orbit is demanded,

    it's just possible they could throw unpowered radio reflectors into low orbit with dust powered ground to orbit mass driver, basically just a mirror for different bands of light. Dust may fail out side of Remnants Biosphere but nothing suggest inertia stops cold with it

    had a thought or two, spring powered clockwork and other inertia batteries should power things without dust , mechanical memory allows for instruction to be encoded if not changed, so we can script actions for after launch, maybe use the surface area of a expanded reflector as a surface to skip off the atmosphere

    as for hitting yourself? start the projectile at the bottom of the ocean and lift the end of barrel into the sky to a altitude that allows for a gravity turn at launch level. Use grav dust to accelerate the projectile avoid the magnetic issues for the most part. use any one of the myriad ray guns to burn a void thru the remain atmosphere between the end of barrel and the target orbit


    Maybe use the above to throw a reflector into the same orbit as the planet but ahead use it to bounce and just eat the lag till better options are devloped, maybe a laser launch system?
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    For the aerial solution like aerostat, the problem is that flying Grimms exist, and some of them are quite big (Kevin and Monstro being the more extreme cases, but even a Nevermore could easily fuck up an aerostat).

    For the orbital solution, my guess is simply a question of resources: why invest in creating an launching in orbit a fleet of satellites to have global communication when four CCT towers or one CCT on top of a flying Amity could do the same? Even now, the more cost sensible would be to rebuild the lost CCT towers or reprogram the remaining two so they can work in tandem. (or with the Vale tower if they find a way to get rid of Kevin and rebuild it)
     
    ElMariachi said:
    For the aerial solution like aerostat, the problem is that flying Grimms exist, and some of them are quite big (Kevin and Monstro being the more extreme cases, but even a Nevermore could easily fuck up an aerostat).

    For the orbital solution, my guess is simply a question of resources: why invest in creating an launching in orbit a fleet of satellites to have global communication when four CCT towers or one CCT on top of a flying Amity could do the same? Even now, the more cost sensible would be to rebuild the lost CCT towers or reprogram the remaining two so they can work in tandem. (or with the Vale tower if they find a way to get rid of Kevin and rebuild it)
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    for aerostat the idea was to never stop making more as thats just the cost of what on Remnant is basic maintenance.

    CCTS towers are rather big targets spreading the system out I hoped to lessen the grimms drive toward the center of human settlement by the CCT towers
     
    Rabe said:
    for aerostat the idea was to never stop making more as thats just the cost of what on Remnant is basic maintenance.

    CCTS towers are rather big targets spreading the system out I hoped to lessen the grimms drive toward the center of human settlement by the CCT towers
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    I'm not sure that it would be cost efficient to endlensly build aerostats to replace the ones destroyed by flying Grimm (or bad weather), and that's without taking into account Salem who can control them to a simultaneous attack against all the aerostats in an area to cut it off from the rest of the world.

    The CCT towers are big targets indeed, that's why they were built in each country's capital city, right next to the Hunter Academy, the hardest places in the world for a Grimm to reach. (at least without outside help, like what happened in Beacon and Atlas)
     
    Man people sure are quick to jump up on the horrible crimes against nature if they think you'll fuck over god
     
    Are we sure that there are any more aura transfer machines left in the world, and that if there are not, the capability exists to make more? The only two we've seen were in Beacon Academy and Atlas Academy - the Beacon machine would have been destroyed in the fight between Cinder and Ozpin, and the Atlas machine when Atlas fell. Both were manufactured in Atlas using its knowhow and plant, and while most of the necessary knowhow will have survived with Pietro (assuming he and Maria did in fact survive Amity crash-landing Gods know where, and the sure-to-be-harsh conditions at the crash site), the plant will not have.
     
    Now that I think about their was no instances of the aura machine going fully through with its design purpose of fully transferring aura. Its either been destroyed or used partly via Pietro.

    What happens if you go through with it completely with a complete soul. Is the new live you? A being who think its you? Or something completely new.

    Penny is not a good example since she was made with part of a soul.
     
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