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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    Because the show is not over yet and how Cinder met Salem can be shown later at a more fitting time, while seeing Cinder's history with Atlas was important now.

    'After' the flashback, the post, talking specifically 'about' the flashback.
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    Honestly I don't think Cinder meeting Salem is that important to show. We get the basic gist of it because it's basically just RWBY/STRQ with Ozma but in reverse. Or Emerald, Mercury, Adam and Roman with adult Cinder, but done more skillfully.


    We know that Salem goes out of her way to seek out people she think would make for good servants and then tailors her recruitment pitch towards them on an individual basis. The Cinder we saw at the end of Midnight was super vulnerable to a recruitment pitch and with all the murders she'd done it's easy to see how Salem could learn about her. The transition from Cinder in the past to Salem being supremely manipulative to control her in the present is also a part of Midnight that basically tells us everything we need to know.

    Cinder was young and vulnerable and had been painfully taught that the only path to freedom was through being powerful enough to destroy all who would take it from her. Salem is an extremely skilled manipulator that has promised and given Cinder power beyond imagination. We can fill in the rest of those blanks ourselves.



    Meeting Salem might technically have been more critical in pushing Cinder towards actively choosing to be evil but it's her childhood that's actually unique and which explains why she's so vulnerable to Salem's manipulation, so desperate and hungry for power, and so broken inside that she can take so many lives and smile about it like it's something to be proud of.
     
    Sandstar said:
    Terra from uh, that one teen titans storyline who name I can't remember right now? The comic, or the movie? (not that it matters, I haven't seen either, but I'm vaguely aware of it)

    Cinder doesn't have any delusions, that's the problem. I don't really understand why people want her to be redeemed. She hasn't been manipulated, or at least, not as overtly as Terra was. I have never judged her for what she did to the woman, and her daughters. I don't think it was justified, but I certainly understand *why* she killed them. But the choices she made after that, from an in universe perspective, were her own.
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    cartoon.

    For Cinder I'm saying that if if she's redeemed it would require loosing everything and being brought to the same wretched state she was in before to make her reconsider her life choices. In Terra's case she's brought to an absolutely wretched state (literally a slave in her own body, realizing that she betrayed the friends who cared for her to serve a monster) and being put in a position where she can either continue believing it's not her fault or save the one person who still believes in her despite everything she's done for her to finally make the decision to redeem herself.

    Or Darth Vader; by the time of ROTJ he's a broken man who only serves because a.) he believes it's too late to ever redeem himself and b.) it's more comfortable using the dark side. Luke defying the dark side despite everything reminded Vader of what it truly meant to be a Jedi, and thus forced him to realize just how pathetic he'd become. Palpatine torturing Luke was also a mirror of the situation 23 years earlier where he made the wrong decision and damned everything. So like Terra he's at a crossroads; let Luke die and continue to be a wretched figure, but continue to enjoy the dark side and allow yourself to comfortably believe you can never make amends, or save Luke and finally do the right thing, but take responsibility and accept how weak he's been all these years. Otherwise Vader wouldn't have made the right choice.
     
    Zurcior said:
    Implied by what? Why would humanity need protection from the Grimm when every single one of them had at least Maiden-level magic?
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    MonochromeXClown said:
    I wanna say since their has been no sign of Grimm anywhere but at the God of Darkness Shrine where he lives.
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    Yeah, exclusively at the God of Darkness's shrine. Only after the Gods bounced did the Grimm start roaming around outside the domain, to the point where Ozma's first sight upon being reincarnated is a village under attack by them.

    There's also the fact that modern Remnant has a lot of issues with settling down because of frequent Grimm attacks, something that doesn't seem to be the case with the past humans given their dense population and vast cities.
     
    just going to google to look at pages of the manga "The Legendary Musings of Professor Munakata" to refresh myself on the chapter about Cinderella.
    I see that before the Fairy Godmother was a thing in the story Cinderella gets her dress and slippers from....a Hazel Tree.
    so I chose to google what Hazel Trees usually mean in old folklore, and this is what I found;
    "When we look to the ancient stories of Celtic lore, we hear tales of how the Hazel is associated with wisdom and inspiration. This sacred tree is said to be cloaked in a powerful magic which can imbue those who eat its fruit." - The Present Tree
    "The hazel tree brings significance to Cinderella's mother. Cinderella goes to the tree in her time of need. ... The hazel tree portraits a symbol for nurturing and it associated with her mother who understands the true nature of nurturing and supporting. Cinderella in front of the hazel tree and her mother's grave." - Writing Through Media

    just felt like sharing.
     
    I know some dislike this idea or consider it childish but I think this series of posts do a neat breakdown on why it has thematic potential. Also as noted, Ozma and Salem, plus the gods are active agents in the world, not omnipresent author narrators and given stories about stories can even have those be fillable, I find anyone going "Yeah but they said this so you're wrong" as the whole argument to be kinda weak but anyway:

    Common Persons Magic

    View: https://aspiringwarriorlibrarian.tumblr.com/post/676121471844794368/gotta-say-bringing-back-penny-using-the-aura

    Outside the Wheelhouse

    View: https://aspiringwarriorlibrarian.tumblr.com/post/676119796677591040/penny-is-just-so-completely-outside-of-the-gods

    Arbitrary Laws

    View: https://aspiringwarriorlibrarian.tumblr.com/post/676118754702311424/in-the-middle-of-figuring-out-the-many-ways-that
     
    And Penny being brought back at this point would kind of fuck over the story.
    Why should Penny get another shot at life? Why not just bring back everyone else who has died?
    Yes it sucks she is dead, but people die. We have to be able to move on.
    The Patch Family had to move on after Summer was presumed dead. Our heroes had to move on after the deaths at Beacon.
    Let the sweet girl rest. It wasn't a long life, but she lived.
     
    Pugman said:
    Why should Penny get another shot at life? Why not just bring back everyone else who has died?
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    Namely because Penny has an in universe reason for coming back and not, say, Pyrrha (inb4 that whole thing with the "Cinder has a bit of Pyrrha in her now").

    Especially with an unfired gun hanging on Amity.
     
    Pugman said:
    And Penny being brought back at this point would kind of fuck over the story.
    Why should Penny get another shot at life? Why not just bring back everyone else who has died?
    Yes it sucks she is dead, but people die. We have to be able to move on.
    The Patch Family had to move on after Summer was presumed dead. Our heroes had to move on after the deaths at Beacon.
    Let the sweet girl rest. It wasn't a long life, but she lived.
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    Why shouldn't she?
    I mean technically the gods at least have the power to do that they just don't want to, but realistically speaking cos other people aren't unique existences like her.
    She died once already, Ozma died and was crammed back into life, Salem is literally immortal.
    Summer who is seemingly not dead. Pyrrha who isn't a magical Maiden Robot.
    I know you probably think this all sounds very poetic and deep but it mostly comes off as though you didn't bother to read anything and are just saying standard lines that anyone says when someone dies over having an actual argument.
     
    If Penny is brought back 100% intact, then it kind of negates any character drama or growth we get in Volume 9 with Ruby and Jaune.
    She also finally had a choice, as shitty as it was, in the end.
    Between "Friend", Penny's story as a whole, and the story of RWBY as a whole both in universe and out would be affected, and not in a good way.
    Look, Death has been a part of RWBY and the CRWBY for a long time now. We all were hurt when Monty died, when Pyrrha died and when HumanPenny died. And what has been a message? Keep moving forward. Even if that person is no longer with you, keep moving and keep living. "Pyrrha isn't here, but we can fight like she is." Live on for those who are gone.
    Salem couldn't accept that Ozma was gone so soon, she couldn't move forward, and now look at where Remnant is. Now Ruby, stuck on The Island, has to come to terms head on with a heavy loss and learn to move on.

    If Ruby can get her ginger buddy back as she was then that is a slap in the face of everyone else in the show who has had to lose a mortal loved one.
     
    Pugman said:
    If Penny is brought back 100% intact, then it kind of negates any character drama or growth we get in Volume 9 with Ruby and Jaune.
    She also finally had a choice, as shitty as it was, in the end.
    Between "Friend", Penny's story as a whole, and the story of RWBY as a whole both in universe and out would be affected, and not in a good way.
    Look, Death has been a part of RWBY and the CRWBY for a long time now. We all were hurt when Monty died, when Pyrrha died and when HumanPenny died. And what has been a message? Keep moving forward. Even if that person is no longer with you, keep moving and keep living. "Pyrrha isn't here, but we can fight like she is." Live on for those who are gone.
    Salem couldn't accept that Ozma was gone so soon, she couldn't move forward, and now look at where Remnant is. Now Ruby, stuck on The Island, has to come to terms head on with a heavy loss and learn to move on.

    If Ruby can get her ginger buddy back as she was then that is a slap in the face of everyone else in the show who has had to lose a mortal loved one.
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    Given everyone was having major feelings about Blake sobbing, trying to fling herself to her presumed death to follow Yang, being held back by Weiss and raging, despite the fact anyone with a brain knew Yang wasn't dead I find this claim rather baseless and also presumptive that if Penny comes back she's not impacted or changed at all.
    That has no real bearing on this, again its poetic but not all that meaningful especially when said choice was born of circumstances foisted on her that she didn't want and was born of her sense of martyrdom, also a thing forced on her.
    In your eyes.
    I'm gonna be blunt and say I honestly think evoking Monty like that comes off less as 'wise' and more kind of outright gross. Again, the show already has people who have come back from the dead, or otherwise don't fall into the RL world circumstances of life and death, dragging Monty's name into this just feels ghoulish. Also not to be harsh to an overall great saying but Ruby has just "Kept moving forward" and its been leading her straight into a total breakdown because she's never taken time to process all this trauma and if you never look back you might not see someone fell and needs a helping hand up to torture a metaphor.
    I notice you are ignoring the whole "God of Darkness killed everyone then broke the moon to be a petty bitch" part of events to blame everything on a grieving abuse victim losing her only human lifeline and struggling to cope, then lashing out when feeling unduly punished. Again, you're presuming a lot.

    Not to be blunt, but life's not fair and sometimes neither is resurrection, Penny already came back once, a fact you continually ignore. No one is suggesting this cos Ruby or Penny are owed this. Its because the circumstances are very unique and it would up-end the enforced expectations of various villainous figures about how the world works or should work.
     
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    Pugman said:
    If Ruby can get her ginger buddy back as she was then that is a slap in the face of everyone else in the show who has had to lose a mortal loved one.
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    To be fair, it was already a slap in the face the first time around given her first death was the impetus to a bunch of deaths and she just shows up back to life and everyone's like "oh, okay."
     
    And just because Salem is indeed an abuse victim does not mean she is owed anything, let alone from the gods.
    1 tried to explain things to her, she got an attitude so he removed her from his room because it was clear she was not going to listen. The second one got tricked into giving her what she wanted and quickly rectified it in typical douche god style.
    Yes Dark was being a petty ass and did not NEED to kill all of humanity, but neither did Salem need to raise an army because she was denied something many other humans had probably been denied for lord knows how long.
    All parties share blame, but it all began with Salem being unable to move forward. She chose not to listen to others much like how Adam and Ironwood chose not to listen to others, and like them their problems became everyone else's problem.
     
    Pugman said:
    1 tried to explain things to her, she got an attitude so he removed her from his room because it was clear she was not going to listen.
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    So the god could not be patient for her to stop crying to explain things once she calms down or point her at people who can explain what he means instead of just throwing her out. Is he so self absorbed than rudeness is enough to throw people aside as beneath him while he claims to guide humanity?
    Pugman said:
    Yes Dark was being a petty ass and did not NEED to kill all of humanity, but neither did Salem need to raise an army because she was denied something many other humans had probably been denied for lord knows how long.
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    She rose the army because Light was even more petty and decided she wasn't allowed to die as punishment for asking his brother, part of why she got the army was to have enough to take the power to take Ozma back since she couldn't follow him, and if they failed she'd probably end up dead anyway so she'd win by being with him.
    Pugman said:
    All parties share blame, but it all began with Salem being unable to move forward. She chose not to listen to others much like how Adam and Ironwood chose not to listen to others, and like them their problems became everyone else's problem.
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    Making her immortal made moving forward much harder, and she tried to go for the ones who hurt her personally instead of hurting others out of sadism to make up for his own pain or out of fear of what might happen if he does stop to help someone like @Zam noted Ruby may risk doing by a different path.

    She was a mortal, she had no power over the Brothers, and when they made that clear the decided to punish her for her grief by refusing to explain the things they claim to stand for when she was rude, forever bared her from seeing her love when she asked the other one, and when she tried to ineffectually fight back to show her and other's displeasure with the world the brothers had made they killed everyone but her, leaving her alone for who knows how long. Solitary confinement is a form of torture, what she became after all of that and the final attempt at suicide in the Grimm pool has little bearing on how much they screwed her over until then.

    She deserves the least blame for the shit-show that made the world a Remnant, and if rudeness, asking twice, and wanting a cut of the power is enough to make them decide they don't want to play with the humans anymore then it was only a matter of time until someone did something they found annoying enough to burn it all and ditch the place.
     
    Steering the topic back to being about Penny:

    Honestly, it can go either way, but for me, I doubt this is the last we see of Penny given Ambro's whole thing about how Penny was "built different".
     
    Pugman said:
    Oz's "impossible task"
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    Kinda neatly glossing over the whole" "We will commit omnicide" thing again in this very generous reading on the gods as some kind of positive force. As well as the fact the world got united once before, after the Great War, amazingly this did little to stop segregations, exploitation, abuse and then another war built on one group trying to genocide another, despite the "era of peace". And that's ignoring bandits, thieves, others slimier types,, let alone the corporate abusers and bigotry, the lynch mobs and then armed revolutionaries before canon even started.

    So even ignoring how hard to justify it would be to get literally everyone on Remnant, down to the last Shady-Man into such a unified state, let alone location, even with Salem as a looming threat, (one I'd note is pretty smart and so if she does want what Ozpin said she's not liable to summon shit while this is the case) Its an incredibly forced, temporary truce that's existence does next to nothing to address the causes behind war and would ultimately come off to me as extremely cheap at best.

    Pugman said:
    "Becoming human"
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    We thought Cinder was the major big bad till V3, and we only met the gods in V6, I think assuming Salem is the sole focus is potentially off. Also I frankly find them dismissing Salem as not interesting enough is pretty flawed and blatantly ignores the fact if the gods did turn up to serve as villains, Salem sure as hell wouldn't be acting as their dragon, so the relationship is totally different anyway.

    But that's not even getting into the fact Ozpin's not even a central character, and his stances shown to be just as fucked up and flawed as anyone else's. He's not some omnipresent author stand in, who again, are figures still liable to error in their own narrative (Just look at Princess Tutu) So the idea that everything is building towards a thematic confrontation between two ideologies, despite Ozpin himself being rejected by the cast and needing to change, I think its a reach.

    Plus I find the idea the cast got more refined questionable, Nora and Ren plus Emerald and maybe Ozpin improved to be sure. But Jaune & Ruby are heading straight for breakdown, Penny kept trying to martyr herself because she felt her obligations were more important than herself and ultimately died doing so, Cinder just became a worse version of herself and Neo too is fraying to shreds. Other characters are a more mixed bag to say the least.
     
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