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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • TreyTheExplainer said:
    ...what are you talking about? Soldiers are universally treated as being too stupid to see they are on the wrong side, and should immediately shrug off military uniform and then instantly become super virtuous ultra badass mercs. Look at Winter, who spent her entire screentime the butt of mockery from Qrow and the plot whenever in a military role, right until she rebelled against the military (synonomous with Nazis in RT works) and gets to be treated with respect.

    RT is contemptous of soldiers, of the military, and of anyone who does not act like a selfish boor. Because Author Fiat ensures that anyone trying to enforce even a semblance of decency or order will instantly become, or be treated as, Hitler reborn.

    They really take the armed forces for granted, as expected of rich bourgeoisie catering to middle class bourgeoisie.
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    Dude, one of the people who founded the company was a soldier.
     
    Jcogginsa said:
    Dude, one of the people who founded the company was a soldier.
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    What does that have to do with anything? You people should know by now that people of a group are fully willing and able to be hateful towards that group if it's profitable.

    Also, a poem for you lot, to show you that RT are not being new with this, as if they ever do anything new.

    Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
    An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
    Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to rol
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    Military worship is ridiculous to me, and I say that as someone who has had multiple service members in their family and all of whom came out of it disliking the military at best, some of whom broke from the experience. I in no way think armies are or should be the most respected thing in a country and I don't trust them on an inherent, visceral level and my distrust grows the higher ranked one is within that system and the more influence one has over said armies.
     
    Plus Armies in a world where emotion sensing murder beasts lurk might sound like a good thing but it really doesn't if the army is just focused in One location. Atlas gets away with it by way of their air fleet and some good will that evaporated like ice cream in a desert once Ironwood pulled them all back during their stint protecting borders and probably cost the other kingdoms territory as their own smaller Militias struggked to retain control. In one fell swoop Ironwood undid whatever good optics the Atlas Military had with withdrawal of troops and shut down of dust trade aka power and ammunition against the literal tides of Black Mawed Death.
     
    TreyTheExplainer said:
    That's straight up moon logic. Armies are seen as essentially the single most unambiguously respected portions of the state everywhere they are not the ruling power. It's mercenaries who are seen with fear.

    As I said, it's Tommy Atkins all over again. Mocked and derided by the middle class during peace, but seen as noble heroes in times of war......not to mention the writers live in Texas, which has a bit of a mythos around cowboys and lone gunmen.

    Personally, I think anyone who thinks professional armies are not a million times better than mercenaries and militias should take a tour of Africa. Even Saddam Hussain was a million times better as a tyrant than roving bands of murderers and bandits.

    The writers should be ashamed and offer an apology to any former veterans who may feel offended.
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    No they shouldn't. I respect the military but I don't worship them, and the military worship in the US has resulted in a LOT of abuses and cruelty. Same with corrupt police; because they're put on a pedestal they become corrupt and abuse the authority that's supposed to be used to protect people. Likewise the tendency to obey can be either a strength or a weakness (sometimes a leader is batshit insane).

    Individual soldiers (Winter, members of Atlas Ops) are shown to be sympathetic as people and even Ironwood had good qualities before he went off the deep end out of arrogance and paranoia.

    Look at the atrocities committed in Vietnam, or similar war crimes committed in Iraq and Afghanistan
     
    Zam said:
    Except as noted those are large groups of soldiers who just decided to be more literal in treating soldiering as a job and sold their services to whoever over a singular nation, while Remnant Hunters are at most groups of like four people, so its still not the same thing.

    Keep in mind that Mistral was under the control of Leo and thus indirectly Salem and actively sabotaging the Hunters working and also communications were down so people couldn't easily call for help. This wasn't standard times.
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    I thought he was just the head of the huntsmen academy, and that the actual political elites gave him shit because he was Faunus (though that might just be in fan fiction.)
     
    LordYam said:
    No they shouldn't. I respect the military but I don't worship them, and the military worship in the US has resulted in a LOT of abuses and cruelty. Same with corrupt police; because they're put on a pedestal they become corrupt and abuse the authority that's supposed to be used to protect people. Likewise the tendency to obey can be either a strength or a weakness (sometimes a leader is batshit insane).

    Individual soldiers (Winter, members of Atlas Ops) are shown to be sympathetic as people and even Ironwood had good qualities before he went off the deep end out of arrogance and paranoia.

    Look at the atrocities committed in Vietnam, or similar war crimes committed in Iraq and Afghanistan
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    Hell those Iran and Afghanistan conflicts had the US army entirely passive at first as people in the high chairs thought those nations kicking up a fuss weren't their problem until they were. Just like when they sat out WW2 at first because the average American of the time couldn't give a damn about Europe falling apart as Germany hacked it to pieces.
     
    LordYam said:
    I thought he was just the head of the huntsmen academy, and that the actual political elites gave him shit because he was Faunus (though that might just be in fan fiction.)
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    It was elaborated on in the Grimm Campaign. The head of the academy should be a powerful position, but faunus bigotry and his own weaknesses resulted in him having rather limited power outside the Academy.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    It was elaborated on in the Grimm Campaign. The head of the academy should be a powerful position, but faunus bigotry and his own weaknesses resulted in him having rather limited power outside the Academy.
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    Probably didn't help Salem had him so downbeaten and scared of her he stopped whatever push back he had going back when he actually had a spine.
     
    One fan story had Hazel be the recruiter and trap Lionheart in a pretty clever way.

    Basically there were members of Mistrallian high society who were actively making it impossible for Lionheart to do his job. Hazel approached him with an offer to help get rid of some of them (non lethally, just destroy their careers). Lionheart took the offer out of a desire to take them down a peg, and once that was done Hazel revealed "yeah I'm actually working for Salem, and you've just helped the Dark Queen." At this point Lionheart just kept digging himself deeper and deeper to conceal the original lie.

    But Trey seems to see the world in absolutes, where if you aren't perfectly deferential you're opposed to police/military. I personally am WELL aware of a lot of the bad things cops have done (just google Jon Burge if you want horror stories; the SBCSD is also pretty bad). I still think that they're necessary because the alternatives are neighborhood watches, which have even LESS restraint or secure hiring practices (George Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch member who was passed over by the Florida PD).

    Hell I've also debated capital punishment. I've argued in certain cases that yes it's pretty clear that innocent black men HAVE been framed by racist cops and that judges/prosecutors cheerfully ignored it unless public pressure forces their hand. I've been called "anti white" for arguing this in certain cases, which just goes to show how racist a lot of people who support law enforcement really are.
     
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    Funnily enough, or rather ironically if you are sympathetic to RWBY, the "Heroes" feel fully entitled to take whatever resources and aid Ironwood and Atlas can provide even as they cuss them out at every opportunity.

    Ungratefulness became a virtue in this show. Ironwood does all the heavy work, andthe Protags then come in, scold the scruffy soldiers, and then take the credit.

    Tommy Atkins just can't catch a break.
     
    TreyTheExplainer said:
    Funnily enough, or rather ironically if you are sympathetic to RWBY, the "Heroes" feel fully entitled to take whatever resources and aid Ironwood and Atlas can provide even as they cuss them out at every opportunity.

    Ungratefulness became a virtue in this show. Ironwood does all the heavy work, andthe Protags then come in, scold the scruffy soldiers, and then take the credit.

    Tommy Atkins just can't catch a break.
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    Uh that's not really true. Ironwood redirects resources meant for mantle for his own projects in direct defiance of what the Atlas council decided, and ignores that since Ruby has equal authority she doesn't have to obey him. Ironwood blatantly ignores his government superiors out of paranoia.

    Meanwhile the heroes DO actually try to work with him and he seemed willing to listen before his paranoia took over.

    You seem to worship law enforcement and not brook any criticism of them or the military.
     
    TreyTheExplainer said:
    Funnily enough, or rather ironically if you are sympathetic to RWBY, the "Heroes" feel fully entitled to take whatever resources and aid Ironwood and Atlas can provide even as they cuss them out at every opportunity.

    Ungratefulness became a virtue in this show. Ironwood does all the heavy work, andthe Protags then come in, scold the scruffy soldiers, and then take the credit.

    Tommy Atkins just can't catch a break.
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    You Mean stealing resources from what originally the Capital of their kingdom and whose walls are thin has literal holes giving Grimm free access due to neglect from said resource diverted. And they couldn't even have the guts to station men on Mantle Barr easily beaten Machines. Like park a ship at least man!
     
    In any event. The Atlas soldier is shown fighting bravely against overwhelming odds, shit tactics but you know what that's a failure of? Leadership.

    Atlas troops are shown doing their best, forever failed by their incompetent leadership. It's all very British really. Lions led by donkeys, with the donkey in chief too stubborn to concede the field.

    Iron Donkey does sound like a cool name for a punk band though.
     
    gman391 said:
    In any event. The Atlas soldier is shown fighting bravely against overwhelming odds, shit tactics but you know what that's a failure of? Leadership.

    Atlas troops are shown doing their best, forever failed by their incompetent leadership. It's all very British really. Lions led by donkeys, with the donkey in chief too stubborn to concede the field.

    Iron Donkey does sound like a cool name for a punk band though.
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    The flaws were organisational and cultural more than anything else.
     
    LordYam said:
    Ironwood redirects resources meant for mantle for his own projects in direct defiance of what the Atlas council decided,
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    They can take a running jump. If he had not created Amity, everyone would be screwed.

    It's fashionable to blame the people making the hard decisions and to cast them as villains deliberately trying to cause trouble for the bourgeoisie viewers, it seems.

    Ironwood has a country to save. If they have any better ideas, they would not need to constantly wait for him to save the day. As it is, they got the entire country destroyed, rather than just half, because listening to a scruffy old soldier is beneath them.

    Unless, of course, the writers pull the traditional miracle to save RWBY from the consequences of their stupidity.

    Carrnage said:
    Before or after the colonial powers went around systemically conquering everyone that didn't fight back?
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    Yes. Where do you think the Imperialists got their slaves? The feudal classes are always the enemies of the peasants, no matter the region or religion or colour.

    Warriors, being the essence distilled of feudalism, have always been tyrants. Soldiers, being servants of a modern state, have always beem defenders.
     
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    You can coat it any way you want. But the point is Ironwood still disobedied the Council, bypassed laws set up since the conclusion of the Great war by the man ostensibly in charge of the entire shadow war who he also backstabbed to get head of security for an event he sucked ass at in defending because the enemy turned his technology against him.
     
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