RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    Indeed, as noted previously, RT don't seem to have an inherent problem with low level soldiers stuck on the frontlines thanks to their bosses.
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    I gotta say, if I was staring down an army of man eating monsters with gear that'd make the Marines from Aliens go 'you poor fucker', I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have the courage they did.
     
    TreyTheExplainer said:
    Warriors, being the essence distilled of feudalism, have always been tyrants. Soldiers, being servants of a modern state, have always beem defenders.
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    I think you may want to rethink this rather romantic notion of Soldier as defender of the little folk in the context of Project Phoenix, Task Forces 01-04, Operation Condor, the school of the Americas, the NKVD under Beria, Saddam Hussein's republican Guard, the Pasdaran, the Iron Guard, the treatment of the Bonus Army, the final fate of tens of thousands of Tamil civilians on the beaches in 2009, and sundry examples which go back to a time from before your birth, old son.

    Tommy Atkins shot down plenty of his Nigerian and Kenyan friends on the thin red line when they asked for their unpaid wages in '46, for instance.

    You might want to consider this before you declare his hands spotless and his soul the apex of all virtues and his character unfairly maligned, all while hollering that his cowering wee detractors who couldn't stand a post are the very picture of ethical paucity.

    Just a thought.
     
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    Mook said:
    On the topic of Huntsmen vs real life mercenaries I would like to point out a crucial detail that people always leave out when making the comparison.


    Monsters. Demons. Prowlers of the night. Creatures of Grimm.
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    How the hell do things that will destroy a nation argue in favor of your only defense being people that will abandon you if you can't pay them anymore instead of people that are usually encouraged to be actually loyal to said nation?

    Atlas being the only place to be able to have two major cities in the Arctic while the supposed better kingdoms hole up in their capital and leave every other village to die isn't a ringing endorsement of the Huntsman system.

    What exactly stops non-military Huntsmen in Atlas from just staying in Atlas because Mantle can't afford them?
     
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    Me: (Looks at the Atlas military abandoning Mantle because they were ordered too.)
    Me: (laughs) "Loyalty!" XD

    As has been previously noted post Beacon fall we know the situation in Mistral is not normal, especially thanks to Leo's subversion.

    Me (Looks at the Happy Huntresses who could have been Specialists but went to Mantle) I love them :)
     
    I don't think Excalibur understands what loyalty means if he can say the Atlas Army is 'Loyal' maybe to the cushy elite of their precious floating city, and not the people who ensure they get to live such cushy lives.
     
    ShuraNoDougai said:
    I don't think Excalibur understands what loyalty means if he can say the Atlas Army is 'Loyal' maybe to the cushy elite of their precious floating city, and not the people who ensure they get to live such cushy lives.
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    Honestly I don't even think its that, like a lot of the regular soldiers come from Mantle, but the thing about the military is it is designed to crush out individuality, expression of opinions, or generally anything but the skills to do the job and obedience for the sake of 'cohesion'.

    This would be another reason they are especially disliked on Remnant given everything we've seen them used for, and given how the culture has developed in the fact of such thinking from the Great War.
     
    ShuraNoDougai said:
    I don't think Excalibur understands what loyalty means if he can say the Atlas Army is 'Loyal' maybe to the cushy elite of their precious floating city, and not the people who ensure they get to live such cushy lives.
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    And all Huntsmen are always going to pick the people that can't pay them because…

    And of course that would require an entire city not to have any lower class people and only rich people despite the noticeable farming area and how that wouldn't remotely ever work what so ever.

    But I'm sure someone will come up with some head canon that probably ignores whatever parts of the show would inconvenience said head canon and repeats it enough for parts of the fanbase to treat it as actually part of the show to explain it.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    And all Huntsmen are always going to pick the people that can't pay them because…

    And of course that would require an entire city not to have any lower class people and only rich people despite the noticeable farming area and how that wouldn't remotely ever work what so ever.

    But I'm sure someone will come up with some head canon that probably ignores whatever parts of the show would inconvenience said head canon and repeats it enough for parts of the fanbase to treat it as actually part of the show to explain it.
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    Me (Glances at RWBY choosing to do exactly that along with the Happy Huntresses and other Hunters down in Mantle)

    There's this thing called a middle class, which is above the working class and impoverished, but not rich, that's what you are looking for.

    ... Aren't you the one ignoring the events we actually see happen on screen because they don't line up with your idealized idea of a general and military?
     
    The Atlas Army sucked in more then just tactics, their version of Therapy is 'keep a stiff upper lip soldier oh and we have a new person to replace your fatality. Your all just Co-workers attachments get in the way of the mission remember' that's like wow so much for Esprit De Corps.
     
    ShuraNoDougai said:
    The Atlas Army sucked in more then just tactics, their version of Therapy is 'keep a stiff upper lip soldier oh and we have a new person to replace your fatality. Your all just Co-workers attachments get in the way of the mission remember' that's like wow so much for Esprit De Corps.
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    What else can happen? It's a military as designed by people who hate soldiers and armies. I was not joking when I said that the famously anti government and counter cultural Marvel Comics was still fairer to the army than RT. As far as RT is concerned armies are inherently fascist while stateless mercenaries are the epitome of independence and great protectors of humanity.

    They should spend a week in the Congo. That will show them why professional militaries are the dividing line between a failed state and a prosperous free nation.

    (Speaking of which, it's frustrating to see people say "Huntsmen don't need to obey Ironwood because they are not part of the military". Like, dude, do you think God On High guarantees their independence? The state gives it, and the state can take it away...RWBY would have spent their entire time in prison if Ironwood was not such a softie).
     
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    LordYam said:
    Uh that's not really true. Ironwood redirects resources meant for mantle for his own projects in direct defiance of what the Atlas council decided
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    Which isn't really that different to what Qrow was planing to do in Mistral in recruiting Huntsmen to chase after Raven after being told The Council couldn't spare any and Ruby and co. were okay with it.

    Because they made it clear that nobody suspected Leo at the time and so had no reason to question him saying Mistral couldn't spare the Huntsmen.

    Hell the only main difference is that in Volume 5 it was explained how diverting Huntsmen would negatively impact Mistral, while in Atlas it was down to vague supples that apparently both a high tech communications satellite and a fucking wall somehow share.
     
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    excalibur2008 said:
    Which isn't really that different to what Qrow was planing to do in Mistral in recruiting Huntsmen to chase after Raven after being told The Council couldn't spare any and Ruby and co. were okay with it.

    Because they made it clear that nobody suspected Leo at the time and so had no reason to question him saying Mistral couldn't spare the Huntsmen.

    Hell the only main difference is that in Volume 5 it was explained how diverting Huntsmen would negatively impact Mistral, while in Atlas it was down to vague supples that apparently both a high tech communications satellite and a fucking wall somehow share.
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    You do grasp there is a difference between asking people for help and stealing from people right?

    He said the council couldn't, not that other people working independent contracts couldn't.

    You mean besides all the extra metals that could be reinforcing walls being taken to reinforce the satellite, liker we literally see the supplies.
     
    Yeah no Qrow knew those people hell he was probably drinking buddies with some of them. He probably would have pitched them what he was getting together and see if they were interested. If they turned it down then rinse amd repeat. But ironwood!? Hah!

    He literally snubs the civilian council members and their authority by diverting resources to his wonderful Amity project without even leaving enough for mantle. He could have halved what he took to at least give Mantle Something for their big gaping holes at the cost of increasing the build time of A!ity, but NO instead he just uses it all on Amity Tower. As if completing his Tower would make the other kingdoms open up to him.

    After he Basically abandoned them all to deal with the grimm while also cutting off their dust supply, severely hampering their ability to fight the Grimm.
     
    ShuraNoDougai said:
    Yeah no Qrow knew those people hell he was probably drinking buddies with some of them. He probably would have pitched them what he was getting together and see if they were interested. If they turned it down then rinse amd repeat.
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    And this means they aren't taking Huntsmen away from defending Mantle because they believe that stopping Salem is more important how exactly?

    He literally snubs the civilian council members and their authority by diverting resources to his wonderful Amity project without even leaving enough for mantle.
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    And the Qrow is going behind the Mistral Council's back to recruit Huntsmen for his mission and I doubt he is picking people that he can't talk into it.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    And this means they aren't taking Huntsmen away from defending Mantle because they believe that stopping Salem is more important how exactly?

    And the Qrow is going behind the Mistral Council's back to recruit Huntsmen for his mission and I doubt he is picking people that he can't talk into it.
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    Because as I noted, Qrow is going to explicitly ask and they can say no, while Ironwood is just robbing Mantle.

    Also as noted, the council couldn't spare anyone, that's not the same as saying no none council related Hunters weren't available.
     
    TreyTheExplainer said:
    What else can happen? It's a military as designed by people who hate soldiers and armies. I was not joking when I said that the famously anti government and counter cultural Marvel Comics was still fairer to the army than RT. As far as RT is concerned armies are inherently fascist while stateless mercenaries are the epitome of independence and great protectors of humanity.

    They should spend a week in the Congo. That will show them why professional militaries are the dividing line between a failed state and a prosperous free nation.

    (Speaking of which, it's frustrating to see people say "Huntsmen don't need to obey Ironwood because they are not part of the military". Like, dude, do you think God On High guarantees their independence? The state gives it, and the state can take it away...RWBY would have spent their entire time in prison if Ironwood was not such a softie).
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    Funny that you bring up the Congo while talking about how soldiers and the military are all so great and all. After being colonized by Belgian military forces under the command of Henry Morton Stanley, the soldiers forced the native people to make rubber, leading to the death of millions. Eventually, Stanley would cede his "private property" (yes, he literally claimed all of the Congo as his personal land with the help of the military) to Belgium itself, where they would continue to exploit the locals. So yes, militaries are the dividing line between being a prosperous and free nation and a "failed state," just in the opposite direction of how you intended.
     
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    Mook said:
    In the real world the primary business of mercenaries was and is war. Aka go around and kill or threaten other humans so that you can take their stuff. When mercenaries turned on their employers for not paying that's just utilizing the same principle against a new target. Kill or threaten other people so that you can take their stuff.
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main reasons you see mercenaries IRL being assholes is them looking out for themselves. Mercenaries are people with jobs looking for a paycheck. When wars are over, armies aren't needed, and militaries are often downsized for peacetimes. Mercenaries tend to be more expensive than your average soldier on a daily salary basis (the main advantage being you didn't have to spend all the time and resources training them yourself) so they tend to be the first cut. As such, it wasn't uncommon for them to go bandit to keep the cash flow coming. The core problem being thus. A mercenary's services aren't always in demand.

    With Remnant, however, Huntsmen will always have their service in demand. Grimm are neverending and they're always clawing at the walls of civilization. Huntsmen will always have job opportunities, and if they're not paid it's more down do to the fact that their employer can't afford it, rather than they're cutting costs (see Brunswick Farms). In that case, sacking their former employer is getting blood from a rock, no money to get. It's easier to just go for work elsewhere. You probably don't even need to go far, in fact from what we've seen there's a big demand for Huntsmen in inter-city transportation. It seems to be standard to have one or two on a train/airship.
     
    Doesn't that lead to Huntsmen tending to side with the more rich members of Society.

    I mean we know trained Huntsmen can be poor enough to live in slums with their families. If that dead huntress that Qrow tried to recruit for an attack on the Branwen tribe is anything to go by.

    So if that's a possible future for huntsmen than finding a wealthy patron is kinda of the ideal. With the regions not being able to afford them not being worth it for a decent amount of huntsmen
     
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    in a world like this, both Mercenaries (Huntsmen) and Soldiers/Officers (from Cops like we saw in Vale to the Atlas Military itself) BOTH serve a function much like Mook's earlier point about Adventurers.

    In most fantasy settings we the audience get to play in, like say D&D or Final Fantasy, you have both Adventurers AND Knights or an equivalent in the same setting.
    The idea being that Adventurers/Mercenaries (typically the player characters) go out into the field, clearing monster dens and fighting bandits among other things. Meanwhile the Knights/Soldiers remain in the cities/capitols as those locations primary source of defense.
    This is a good system as it means small issues in the field can be taken care of without pulling any protection from a location and risk leaving a blind spot open.


    Also, can some please tell me who the fuck this Atkins guy is?
     
    I made a comment a ways back about how the Atlaseian Army was politicized.

    Itgotworse 26 said:
    Counterpoint: Due to Ironwood being a member of the Atlas Council, the Army is technically an equal on the Council...

    And TBF to you, Ironwood demonstrates exactly why most militaries in "democratic" countries are explicitly under the control of a civilian executive; to prevent the exact shenanigans that Ironwood starts.
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    Politicized militaries and security apparatuses will be more than happy to backstab the people and governments they protect to insure their positions and privileges, as we've seen happen in the real world with the SS, Imperial Japanese military, and the countless militaries in the Arab world and Latin America.

    Even worse, an institution like the Atlesian Army has state backing and resources that Huntsmen can only dream of. From what we see at Beacon, Huntsmen are raised in an environment that tries to instill the values of altruism and service. Even though we see firsthand that some Huntsmen definitely don't embody those values (Cardin, the Dum-Dums hired by Argus Limited), these rightfully misaligned Huntsmen don't have any institutional backing; as a result, they don't have any way to continue their abuses or pass it on to the next generation of Huntsmen. Bad apples in real militaries and police departments on the other hand not only have the ability to corrupt the institutions they serve not only from the bottom but they will rot them from the top-down when they reach positions of leadership.

    The Atlesian Army always had a rotten founding because I also always got the feeling that the elites of Atlas were sore losers about Mantle's defeat in the Great War. That's why when they had the chance, they renamed their kingdom Atlas; to distance themselves from their predecessors who couldn't win the Great War. The politicization of the Army is further illustrated by the fact that the Army is a political equal on the Atlesian Council instead of being subordinate to it. As a result, you have a military that's more than happy to throw everybody under a bus to secure their positions and privileges.

    Pugman said:
    Also, can some please tell me who the fuck this Atkins guy is?
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    Tommy Atkins; more commonly shortened to Tommy, is an old Commonwealth term for British soldiers, especially those from the First World War (I know that SB is more likely to use the term Squaddie to describe modern British soldiers).
     
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