RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Matrix Dragon]

Looking through history, states that relied primarily on private mercenaries to provide for their security have noticeable tentancies toward being overthrown or sacked by said mercenaries once the money runs out. Having 3/4 kingdoms rely primarily on uncoordinated mercs to defend themselves is super unrealistic and should lead to a lot of problems. Not that the show needs to be super realistic to be enjoyable.

Even within the confines of the show though, the mercenary nature of the hunters is a part of why the rural areas we see in v4 and v6 are so badly off-they can't afford enough hunters to keep themselves safe. A more centralized system would be able to have the state order hunters to patrol vulnerable rural areas instead of making those areas compete with more wealthy and safer areas to hire hunters.

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True enough. Keep in mind though, the current system came about in response to a global war that seemed to lead to a greater distrust of organised militaries, possibly due to their use in invading other nations as opposed to focusing on defense. Thanks, nations of the great war era, you messed it up for everyone now.

That said, there do seem to be regional and national militias, we see them at the end of V4 for instance.

Don't forget wanting to still go into space with the Staff even though Salem made landfall on Atlas and essentially compromised his original plan.

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And broke the shields that would keep the air in, that's a big issue someone might want to point out to- *BANG!* GET SOME SLEEP YOU STUPID BASTARD!

 

[MonochromeXClown]

That said, there do seem to be regional and national militias, we see them at the end of V4 for instance.

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I mean kinda. Vale yes but Mistral is a mess with a façade of being a kingdom. They just close themselves off in the capital and barely do anything outside of it. While Vacou is a nation like the Holy Roman Empire is an Empire.

As of right now the only kingdom with any hint of stability is Vale.

 

[excalibur2008]

True enough. Keep in mind though, the current system came about in response to a global war that seemed to lead to a greater distrust of organised militaries

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The current system came about because Ozpin ended the war in a way that had everyone inclined to do what he wanted then proceeded to reorganize everything and conveniently ended up with a system basically run out of four schools headed by his most trusted allies that was disconnected enough to make fighing the shadow war he didn't want anyone outside the inner circle to know about easier to hide.

 

[ShadowEMT]

Except as noted Adam doesn't care about that stuff, he only wants power, control and to hurt people.

Adam has neither the wit nor the courage to pull something like that off.

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And I completely agree on your first point, I am just saying that the environment in V6 is one where he could thrive, full angry and scared people ready to listen on how beating the minimum wage cashier from the Schnee store is the same as fighting the SDC but with less guards.

And on the second point I would normally agree with you, Adam would never put his neck on the line for such a lowly cause as fighting against systematic oppression or protecting those who that can't protect themselves, but he is fighting for a higher cause, he is going to kill his ex-girlfriend for humiliating in public.

Or to steal a fuckton of money for himself

 

[Matrix Dragon]

So, basically, Tyrian and Watts role, just with all his bad PR from Beacon and Mistral attached? He'd actually result in everyone getting along sooner

 

[ShadowEMT]

So, basically, Tyrian and Watts role, just with all his bad PR from Beacon and Mistral attached? He'd actually result in everyone getting along sooner

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More Tyrian than Watts, he is nowhere near smart enough to be Watts, but independent from Salem, probably would be a good distraction that Watts can use.

Also I imagine him taking a new persona, pretending that he isn't Adam Taurus, probably a little initial mystery

 

[Pugman]

Let us not forget the different ways of teaching at each academy (even though we haven't seen much outside of Beacon and Atlas).
At Beacon we can get the sense of the kinds of morals Ozpin and his teachers are trying to impart on the next generation. Stuff like do good, protect the people, don't have your head up your own ass, work with others, etc. In short it is done in the manner Oz initially intended.
Meanwhile for Atlas I think Weiss once said they should expect something regimented and coordinated. Being from Atlas and having a sister that went through it she would have a basic understanding. This is why Flynt and Neon were a surprise to her. All info we have is that Team FNKI were an exception to what one normally expects from the academy that "encourages" it's students to join the military after graduation.

 

[Matrix Dragon]

More Tyrian than Watts, he is nowhere near smart enough to be Watts, but independent from Salem, probably would be a good distraction that Watts can use.

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Nope, Adam Taurus would be toxic to their cause at that point. They wanted Mantle and Atlas divided. Adam Taurus, the lunatic that burnt down beacon and tried to destroy Haven? He'd be perfect for convincing Ironwood to talk to Robin sooner, without needing to explain Salem. And Robin would do her level best to end him. And with Blake in play, he's not getting to make some kind of cover id.

 

[Pugman]

Can we stop trying to shoehorn Adam into things?
at BEST if we are to do so, have it just be for rewrites of the Beacon arc that show him as a clear cut bad guy using The Fang.

 

[Matrix Dragon]

Can we stop trying to shoehorn Adam into things?
at BEST if we are to do so, have it just be for rewrites of the Beacon arc that show him as a clear cut bad guy using The Fang.

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I mean, his showing up in V7 would fuck things up so amazingly well for the good guys though. Hell, taking down the man publicly known for the Fall of Beacon might actually help Ironwood to the point that he doesn't fall into complete dictatorshipness.

 

[TreyTheExplainer]

Anyone who is rooting for a warrior class of mercenaries that hold themselves to be independent of any government or country over the professional military should try living in a country without professional armies.

But then again, contempt for Tommy Atkins is hardly new.

 

[ShuraNoDougai]

Anyone who is rooting for a warrior class of mercenaries that hold themselves to be independent of any government or country over the professional military should try living in a country without professional armies.

But then again, contempt for Tommy Atkins is hardly new.

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I mean unless your dealing with a literally endless tide of inhuman monstrosities that sense emotions. Armies aren't going to be seen as symbols of stability or safety especially after the remnant great war. It's as Ozpin said

"There's an energy in the air now, a question in the back of everyone's minds... If this is the size of our defenses, then what is it we're expecting to fight?"

That and we saw what happened when Atlas fought the Grimm Army with theirs even with technology and rifles, the Grimm Kept coming and their ground and air assets were whittled by attrition.

 

[excalibur2008]

I mean unless your dealing with a literally endless tide of inhuman monstrosities that sense emotions.

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The answer to that is heavily militarized fortresses bristling with guns. Not murder hobos that can leave you to die if the check doesn't clear.

That and we saw what happened when Atlas fought the Grimm Army with theirs even with technology and rifles, the Grimm Kept coming and their ground and air assets were whittled by attrition.

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And without that army Atlas would have been over run and destroyed. There is a reason Ozpin told Ironwood to deploy his army when The Fall of Beacon really got going.

 

[TreyTheExplainer]

mean unless your dealing with a literally endless tide of inhuman monstrosities that sense emotions. Armies aren't going to be seen as symbols of stability or safety especially after the remnant great war

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That's straight up moon logic. Armies are seen as essentially the single most unambiguously respected portions of the state everywhere they are not the ruling power. It's mercenaries who are seen with fear.

As I said, it's Tommy Atkins all over again. Mocked and derided by the middle class during peace, but seen as noble heroes in times of war......not to mention the writers live in Texas, which has a bit of a mythos around cowboys and lone gunmen.

Personally, I think anyone who thinks professional armies are not a million times better than mercenaries and militias should take a tour of Africa. Even Saddam Hussain was a million times better as a tyrant than roving bands of murderers and bandits.

The writers should be ashamed and offer an apology to any former veterans who may feel offended.

 

[Pugman]

That's straight up moon logic. Armies are seen as essentially the single most unambiguously respected portions of the state everywhere they are not the ruling power. It's mercenaries who are seen with fear.

As I said, it's Tommy Atkins all over again. Mocked and derided by the middle class during peace, but seen as noble heroes in times of war......not to mention the writers live in Texas, which has a bit of a mythos around cowboys and lone gunmen.

Personally, I think anyone who thinks professional armies are not a million times better than mercenaries and militias should take a tour of Africa. Even Saddam Hussain was a million times better as a tyrant than roving bands of murderers and bandits.

The writers should be ashamed and offer an apology to any former veterans who may feel offended.

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But neither the writers nor the characters in show are 100% against Armies.
Heck, the show has shown that such forces can be for good, but only when done competently.
Meanwhile in-universe most of the world is rightfully put off of full scale armies after 1 World War when the aftermath is clear that with Grimm around that you might get so focused on fighting the enemy and leave your back open. With the hostilities across the world fueled by the flames of war how many towns and villages fell to the maws of the grimm while the most able bodied warriors were out fighting someone else?

Plain and simple, Armies are not that great in this kind of setting.

 

[ShuraNoDougai]

An army is simply focused group to deal with a Grimm Incursion and also create wells of negativity that attract them from all the negative emotions of those who are left behind. Remember all those protests and outcrys against wars back in the cold war era?

Now let's take your real world analogy here to it's logical conclusion what happens whem they get hit and all fighting boys and girls are away fighting the good fight? they're fucked. An army fighting a war against grimm is doomed as Grimm Will divert to reach their now softened territories and if they turn around to try and deal with the threat the Grimm they're fighting will take advantage.

 

[MonochromeXClown]

Plain and simple, Armies are not that great in this kind of setting.

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Kinda? If that was the case Mistral shouldn't even exist as it is right now. Since It was the direct result of a Kingdom conquering a whole continent with who knows how many different people under their hegemony.

 

[TreyTheExplainer]

But neither the writers nor the characters in show are 100% against Armies

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...what are you talking about? Above me is a quote literally trying to say that soldiers will make people more scared rather than less.

Even Marvel Comics is more respectful. And those are the guys that made General Ross...because at least they don't treat the very idea of a military as being a step short of rounding people up in concentration camps!

RT has a lot to answer for. They can say whatever nonsense they want to pander to twitter mobs, but it's downright disgusting to be so disrespectful to the guys that join up to serve their nation, which includes you, at the cost of their own lives.

 

[ShuraNoDougai]

Kinda? If that was the case Mistral shouldn't even exist as it is right now. Since It was the direct result of a Kingdom conquering a whole continent with who knows how many different people under their hegemony.

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Mistral did conquer but their side of the map burned just as well in the great war period. All their armies fought to expand or protect territory. And while they did so Grimm came and picked off their weakened defenses and possibly harried supply lines too because fuck logistics humans made it.

 

[Matrix Dragon]

The writers should be ashamed and offer an apology to any former veterans who may feel offended.

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Oh grow the hell up. Rooster Teeth has never hesitated to call out the military for excesses while celebrating individuals who chose to serve, dating all the way back to season one of Red vs Blue.

at least they don't treat the very idea of a military as being a step short of rounding people up in concentration camps!

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... Okay then. I don't know how the hell you got that viewpoint from the show, because what the actual fuck.

 

[Jcogginsa]

RT as a whole is very critical of militaries but very sympathetic to soldiers.

 

[Teen Spirit]

...what are you talking about? Above me is a quote literally trying to say that soldiers will make people more scared rather than less.

Even Marvel Comics is more respectful. And those are the guys that made General Ross...because at least they don't treat the very idea of a military as being a step short of rounding people up in concentration camps!

RT has a lot to answer for. They can say whatever nonsense they want to pander to twitter mobs, but it's downright disgusting to be so disrespectful to the guys that join up to serve their nation, which includes you, at the cost of their own lives.

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You do realize Atlas isn't actually America right? Like it's kind of an expy of America sure but it isn't actually America. Showing the Atlas military as deeply problematic because of it's loyalty to General Ironwood above the people their suppose to protect is not insulting any actual soldiers. And like bringing an army to a peaceful sports festival for basically no reason is bad.

 

[Pugman]

...what are you talking about? Above me is a quote literally trying to say that soldiers will make people more scared rather than less.

Even Marvel Comics is more respectful. And those are the guys that made General Ross...because at least they don't treat the very idea of a military as being a step short of rounding people up in concentration camps!

RT has a lot to answer for. They can say whatever nonsense they want to pander to twitter mobs, but it's downright disgusting to be so disrespectful to the guys that join up to serve their nation, which includes you, at the cost of their own lives.

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That quote was from Ozpin, pointing out that a Large Force floating above another nation during a peace event is not a good look.
Meanwhile what I said was that armies are good when run competently.
Ozpin had to stop Ironwood from sending a force out to Mountain Glenn, reminding him that you send Scouts out first.
So in short, Ironwood is not all that competent.

 

[Matrix Dragon]

RT as a whole is very critical of militaries but very sympathetic to soldiers.

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Hell, just in this season, we had Marrow and Winter struggling with the fact their superior officer is committing criminal acts and betraying his oaths in paranoid fear, Vine willingly giving his life to protect his comrades and any civilians that may have been in blast range, and many of the generic soldiers hold the line against the grimm horde at the cost of their lives.

... In fact, let's talk about the generic faceless soldiers for a moment. As far back as volume 2, we see little reminders they're human (Dancing with Penny, worrying about her, and so on). We see a handful of them stand against the horde in V3 and go down fighting, and again in V7 and 8. The average soldier seems to lack aura and the ability to wield the sorts of weapons the heroes do, which I've always suspected means there's more to unlocking aura than what we've seen (fanfiction usually goes with it kicking up metabolism a LOT, which does justify how our heroes eat so much besides 'cartoon'). The bravery of the average soldier has never been in doubt in this show.

The problem has always been in the command structure with people like Ironwood, who came to consider civilians a 'side issue', and Clover/Harrier/etc, who had gotten to deep into the 'don't think, obey' indoctrination that the military does need to SOME extent. In-universe, that's likely a part of why, after the Great War, most military forces were considerably downsized, with a focus on smaller, semi-independant huntsmen who are supposed to use their morals (With varying degrees of success).

 

[TreyTheExplainer]

Oh grow the hell up. Rooster Teeth has never hesitated to call out the military for excesses while celebrating individuals who chose to serve, dating all the way back to season one of Red vs Blue.

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I have, kid. And no, trying to dress up their Tommy Atkins level shpiel as anything but a onesided political tract against soldiers will not do.

I wonder if they would feel more respectful of soldiers if they lived in lands where militias ruled? After all, armies are willling to hear abuse from the same people they defend. But mercenaries will demand even your life for their amusement if they do not actually need you.

RT as a whole is very critical of militaries but very sympathetic to soldiers.

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...what are you talking about? Soldiers are universally treated as being too stupid to see they are on the wrong side, and should immediately shrug off military uniform and then instantly become super virtuous ultra badass mercs. Look at Winter, who spent her entire screentime the butt of mockery from Qrow and the plot whenever in a military role, right until she rebelled against the military (synonomous with Nazis in RT works) and gets to be treated with respect.

RT is contemptous of soldiers, of the military, and of anyone who does not act like a selfish boor. Because Author Fiat ensures that anyone trying to enforce even a semblance of decency or order will instantly become, or be treated as, Hitler reborn.

They really take the armed forces for granted, as expected of rich bourgeoisie catering to middle class bourgeoisie.

You do realize Atlas isn't actually America right? Like it's kind of an expy of America sure but it isn't actually America. Showing the Atlas military as deeply problematic because of it's loyalty to General Ironwood above the people their suppose to protect is not insulting any actual soldiers. And like bringing an army to a peaceful sports festival for basically no reason is bad.

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Mate, the fig leaf does not really hide anything. Not all of us are as blind to obvious metaphors.

For RT, soldiers are fascists and thugs, fulls top. And officers can either follow the law and be cartoonish caricatures, or be allowed some dignity by letting the heroes do whatever they like. The law exists to protect but not restrain the Heroes, and restrain but not protect anyone they dislike.