RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Bea]

Weiss explicitly talks about how her family had been targeted by the White Fang, and how that led her father to take it out on his family, in V1E15

Click to shrink...

Okay, I'm going to walk through the entire arc with you.

The episode opens with the protagonists going to the docks to meet with students visiting from Vacuo. By itself this is honestly mostly just kinda a weak padding opening so i'm not going to touch too much on it. However, they then hear talk about the heists and how it's the parties think it was the White Fang's responsibility. This leads to a debate about the White Fang. And it starts out being about the White Fang, but then it takes a turn when Weiss says this.

Weiss: "That still doesn't change the fact that the White Fang are a bunch of scum." (to Blake's growing anger) "Those Faunus only know how to lie, cheat, and steal."

Yang: "That's not necessarily true..."

Click to shrink...

Now, the voice acting in the early seasons is especially not great, but Yang's VA does a pretty decent job of sounding distinctly uncomfortable about where the conversation is going in a way that as an outsider to the conversation she didn't before. If this was still solely about the White Fang, why would she feel that way? What is the point of having Yang say this line at all, and not Blake, thereby continuing to emphasize the conflict between the two of them? This is especially so since it isn't like Yang ever indicates any particular sympathy for the White Fang as it currently exists. that's just not part of her character, so establishing that isn't relevant. And if this dispute is about the White Fang, why the noun shift there? Why is it "Those Faunus" only know how to lie, cheat, and steal, and not "those terrorists"? Or "The White Fang"?

Both of these elements, meanwhile, make perfect sense if Weiss isn't just talking about the White Fang anymore. If you replace "White Fang" with "BLM" and "faunus" with "black people", this actually sounds perfectly like something your racist relative might slip when discussing racial issues. In the thesis being raised by this side of the argument, this is wholly by happenstance, I guess? But I'll actually give the writing staff enough credit to say that this is entirely deliberate. This is Weiss having a moment as a privileged girl who doesn't know any Faunus and engaging in racial stereotyping, something that Yang is uncomfortable with. Now things that seem a bit awkward make total sense.

We then get a bit featuring Sun where Sun seems to live up to every stereotype that Weiss ascribed to "Those Faunus" just in that very scene. Which in itself is massively tone-deaf, but that's neither here nor there. We then get some stuff with Penny that feels like it belongs in a different episode entirely but was just stuffed in here. It's not that relevant to Weiss' arc, so I'll be ignoring it.

The episode then starts to find its focus again when we go back to the Sun stuff, and this happens:

Weiss: (realization hitting) "Wait a minute." (walks over to Penny and grabs her by the shoulders) "If you're here for the tournament, does that mean you know that monkey-tailed... rapscallion?"
...
Weiss: (holding up a poor drawing of the criminal-in-question) "The filthy Faunus from the boat!"

Blake: (off-screen) "Why do you keep saying that?!"

Weiss: (turning her attention from Penny to Blake) "Huh?"

Blake: (walking over to Weiss, angry) "Stop calling him a rapscallion! Stop calling him a degenerate! He's a person!"

Weiss: "Oh, I'm sorry." (releases Penny and motions to objects around her) "Would you like me to stop referring to the trash can as a trash can? Or this lamppost as a lamppost?"

Click to shrink...

Here we have Weiss call a Faunus, somebody she doesn't know, hasn't met, has no relation to, or have any real reason to think is associated with the White Fang, "filthy" and a "rapscallion", something Blake clearly takes offense to. It's worth noting that at this point, she has no reason to think Sun has anything to do with the White Fang as far as the viewer can tell. She's just making an assumption based off, well, seemingly the fact that he's a Faunus. And Blake doesn't know who Sun is, so she has no real particular reason to be so incredibly offended on Sun's behalf if this was just about him. And "filthy" is again, in some ways really borderline racialized language. I've sure we've all heard about "filthy foreigners" before.

We're very steadily departing from the contention between Weiss and Blake having to do with the White Fang, and a lot more with it having to do with the Faunus in general.

Blake proceeds to explicitly call Weiss out on exactly this.

Blake: "You are a judgmental little girl."

Weiss: "What in the world makes you say that?"

Blake: "The mere fact that you would sort that Faunus boy with a terrorist group solely based on his species makes you just as much of a scoundrel as you believe him to be!"

Click to shrink...

Now, by the reading you and other posters in this thread are ascribing, Blake would be wrong here. But Weiss is pretty clearly the one that is supposed to be at least primarily in the wrong in this entire episode, the way the entire episode revolves around her arc seems to pretty firmly establish that. From what I can tell from the episode, we're supposed to be on Blake's side when she calls Weiss out, not going "Oh, well, gee, I assume she has her reasons." Hell, it would make me feel even worse about the episode if we were! The argument continues, and Blake gets even more blatant.

Blake: (gets on her feet as well) "There's no such thing as pure evil! Why do you think they hate Humanity so much? It's because of people like Cardin, people like you, that force the White Fang to take such drastic measures!"

Weiss: "People like me?"

Blake: "You're discriminatory!"

Click to shrink...

Here Blake equates Weiss with the openly racist character, and talks about how she's discriminatory, just outright. We then get Weiss' bit about how she's a victim that you quote the end of. I'll come back to it later. Ruby sympathizes, and then Blake outs herself as a former member of the White Fang. Blake then meets up with Sun, and that is basically where the episode ends.

Now let's move onto the next episode.

We open with a conversation between Blake and Sun about the White Fang.(1) It isn't too important here, really, so we'll move on. Weiss, Yang, and Ruby are looking for Blake, and then Penny reveals that she thinks blake is a faunus. Then a bunch of other stuff happens that isn' really relevant to Weiss and Blake's relationship. There's a fight scene, and so on. Then the big resolution happens and Weiss says that she doesn't care about whether or not Blake was in the White Fang but that she hopes that Blake won't keep these things secret again.

Then, however, she turns to Sun.

Weiss: (as the five gather with each other, she points accusingly at Sun) "I'm still not quite sure about how I feel about you!" (Sun laughs nervously)

Click to shrink...

this is really kind of weird. Sun has literally nothing to do with the White Fang. He hates the White Fang. He has no sympathies for them. So why is Weiss still "not sure" how she feels about him? How is this related to her revelations about Blake, as she implies with the framing of that line, given that he has nothing to do with the White Fang? The only thing that they have in common is... well... I think you know.

And then we get the end scene with Cinder and that's basically it. Notice something that I haven't touched on a single time in this synopsis? Weiss' relationship with her family or her family's relationship with the White Fang. That's because aside from that one line by Weiss, it literally never comes up. Ever. Weiss doesn't talk about how her father mistreated her as a result of the White Fang's attacks to the others, she doesn't even imply anything about it. There's no foreshadowing about it that could be called back to later. There is no connection beyond the Schnee Dust Company getting attacked by the villains, which isn't really relevant to the subplot. It's entirely incidental.

Hell, let's look at the line again.

You want to know why I despise the White Fang? Why I don't particularly trust the Faunus? (leaning against the bookshelf by the window) "It's because they've been at war with my family for years. War, as in actual bloodshed. My grandfather's company has had a target painted across its back for as long as I can remember. And ever since I was a child, I've watched family friends disappear; board members executed; an entire train car full of Dust, stolen. And every day, my father would come home, furious. And that made for a very difficult childhood.

Click to shrink...

The explanation here doesn't depend on Weiss' relationship with her father, it's a footnote in the entire thing. There's no real reason to even think from this that it was her father being mad that made the events difficult, and not the events themselves. This is exactly what I mean when I say that Weiss' abuse is backfilled. There was time to flesh it out earlier on but they deliberately don't do so.

But wait a second, what was that first sentence again?

You want to know why I despise the White Fang? Why I don't particularly trust the Faunus?

Click to shrink...

Weiss says it herself. This isn't just about the White Fang to her. This is about the Faunus. Her statements that seemed prejudice toward the Faunus were in fact, about the Faunus. Everything that indicated that she had issues with the faunus wasn't the writers accidentally doing all this, it was them deliberately doing it.

In sum, this reading of Weiss' character simply doesn't hold up. The episode is not about her getting over her hang-ups with members of the White Fang and is explicitly about her getting over her racism. The things Weiss says indicate it, the way others react indicates it, the thrust of Weiss' very own defense indicates it.

The end.

1. This is a complete aside, but the fact that this is why Sun, the first sympathetic character who we meet as a faunus, dislikes the White Fang when we're still being introduced to them and our view of them being shaped feels like it should maybe shape our perception of how rwby feels about violence means to upset the status quo.

Sun: "Of course! I don't think there's a Faunus on the planet who hasn't heard of them. Stupid, holier-than-thou creeps that use force to get whatever they want. Bunch of freaks, if you ask me!"

Click to shrink...

 

[Zam]

1. This is a complete aside, but the fact that this is why Sun, the first sympathetic character who we meet as a faunus, dislikes the White Fang when we're still being introduced to them and our view of them being shaped feels like it should maybe shape our perception of how rwby feels about violence means to upset the status quo.

Click to shrink...

Sun is a guy who hails from a kingdom where bigotry isn't a major or systemic issue and is also someone who explicitly knows nothing about Faunus outside of himself and is thus literally the worst Faunus's opinion to take on this topic. Like his entire narrative role is basically to be an exposition sponge for Blake to explain stuff too.

Also I and others already addressed your points on this front and your summary doesn't actually serve as a counter argument in my eyes; like its certainly using a lot of words, but its not actually addressing anything anyone said.

 

[Squirtodyle]

Sun is a guy who hails from a kingdom where bigotry isn't a major or systemic issue and is also someone who explicitly knows nothing about Faunus outside of himself and is thus literally the worst Faunus's opinion to take on this topic. Like his entire narrative role is basically to be an exposition sponge for Blake to explain stuff too.

Also I and others already addressed your points on this front and your summary doesn't actually serve as a counter argument in my eyes; like its certainly using a lot of words, but its not actually addressing anything anyone said.

Click to shrink...

None of this is information we knew at the time, though? We had no information about Sun besides what is said in the episodes, and this set of episodes functions as our first real look at the White Fang, wherein they are characterized as, well, what Sun says. The only person to argue against it is Blake, who was a former member who...left because it got too violent.

As a new viewer watching RWBY for the first time, who has no idea about all the information they filled in years later, what message do you think it sends that the first openly Faunus character in the show that doesn't actually already have ties to the White Fang is so incredibly dismissive and harsh about them and their choice to use violence as a political tool?

 

[Zam]

None of this is information we knew at the time, though? We had no information about Sun besides what is said in the episodes, and this set of episodes functions as our first real look at the White Fang, wherein they are characterized as, well, what Sun says. The only person to argue against it is Blake, who was a former member who...left because it got too violent.

As a new viewer watching RWBY for the first time, who has no idea about all the information they filled in years later, what message do you think it sends that the first openly Faunus character in the show that doesn't actually already have ties to the White Fang is so incredibly dismissive and harsh about them and their choice to use violence as a political tool?

Click to shrink...

Um, we do though? As in, the moment Blake discusses the WF with him and before we even see them, he makes it clear he has no grasp of their or Faunus history in general.

The one I got, IE, that Sun has no idea what he's talking about because he blatantly had no grasp of anything Blake was explaining to him which had already been covered in a history class earlier that volume, meaning its not like this is hidden info.

 

[Bea]

Also I and others already addressed your points on this front and your summary doesn't actually serve as a counter argument in my eyes; like its certainly using a lot of words, but its not actually addressing anything anyone said.

Click to shrink...

i mean, the other main response to my statement is yours and like, it's not a counterpoint. it's something that could be true, I guess, or the continuity could have just not been fully developed at that point. But I don't see how it suddenly makes an arc that is, in Weiss' own words, about how she doesn't partcularly trust the Faunus, about her issues as an abuse victim. if it were just Weiss' word on the issue, then you might have weight. But everything about how the episodes are conducted points in that direction- the way the lines are written, the way thing are framed, the lack of any focus on weiss' family in the entire thing aside from a single line that gets Ruby's sympathy and then never matters ever again.

What counterarguments do I need to address that I haven't, in your opinion?

 

[Squirtodyle]

Um, we do though? As in, the moment Blake discusses the WF with him and before we even see them, he makes it clear he has no grasp of their or Faunus history in general.

The one I got, IE, that Sun has no idea what he's talking about because he blatantly had no grasp of anything Blake was explaining to him which had already been covered in a history class earlier that volume, meaning its not like this is hidden info.

Click to shrink...

Yes, and then the rest of the episode is dedicated to proving that the White Fang was behind the robberies, Blake admitting that she knew deep down and didn't want to believe it, and Weiss's acceptance of Blake being conditional on Blake not being a member anymore, something she's clearly ashamed of considering she willingly defected when they became too violent.

Now, remember what Sun says about them and why he doesn't like them?

It doesn't matter that Sun didn't know the full backstory, because Sun is ultimately proven right. The White Fang was behind the robberies, Blake concedes that she was wrong and reaffirms that she has left them, and Sun makes fun of Blake for having been part of a cult even after he's had the history explained.

Even if your argument is that Sun was just dumb and had no idea about public history and had never been discriminated against even though he's fully aware that the White Fang publicly fight against Faunus racism and are very open about it, the episode still bears out that the White Fang are bad and really did change from the idealistic symbol of human/Faunus peace after the war that it had started as, according to Blake.

 

[Zam]

i mean, the other main response to my statement is yours and like, it's not a counterpoint. it's something that could be true, I guess, or the continuity could have just not been fully developed at that point. But I don't see how it suddenly makes an arc that is, in Weiss' own words, about how she doesn't partcularly trust the Faunus, about her issues as an abuse victim. if it were just Weiss' word on the issue, then you might have weight. But everything about how the episodes are conducted points in that direction- the way the lines are written, the way thing are framed, the lack of any focus on weiss' family in the entire thing aside from a single line that gets Ruby's sympathy and then never matters ever again.

What counterarguments do I need to address that I haven't, in your opinion?

Click to shrink...

How is it not a counterpoint, you say her arc across those episode was not a thing and was X thing, I explain why I feel differently. Also the continuity of events was developed at that point because Blake revealed the five year mark the very next episode, I'm literally only using information available in the episodes available at the time. You repeating that, that is how you feel doesn't actually serve as a counter argument, its literally you just saying, "I felt this" and fails to address anyone's counterpoints about the framing, narrative, or dialogue.

Yes, and then the rest of the episode is dedicated to proving that the White Fang was behind the robberies, Blake admitting that she knew deep down and didn't want to believe it, and Weiss's acceptance of Blake being conditional on Blake not being a member anymore, something she's clearly ashamed of considering she willingly defected when they became too violent.

Now, remember what Sun says about them and why he doesn't like them?

It doesn't matter that Sun didn't know the full backstory, because Sun is ultimately proven right. The White Fang was behind the robberies, Blake concedes that she was wrong and reaffirms that she has left them, and Sun makes fun of Blake for having been part of a cult even after he's had the history explained.

Even if your argument is that Sun was just dumb and had no idea about public history and had never been discriminated against even though he's fully aware that the White Fang publicly fight against Faunus racism and are very open about it, the episode still bears out that the White Fang are bad and really did change from the idealistic symbol of human/Faunus peace after the war that it had started as, according to Blake.

Click to shrink...

That doesn't disprove my point about Sun being portrayed as blatantly ignorant?

Except for the part about them being cult like, cos the only time that seemed to be the case was with the Albains who didn't exist yet, and as we saw in later volumes we find out the situation was notably more complicated than Sun presented, and also we got hints in that episode that it was unusual, because Blake straight up says the WF would never work with a human like that, thus indicating something foul is afoot behind the scenes. A fact made clear when we see Cinder approach Roman in the final scene.

He did have no idea about such things, (He also didn't know that's what they fight for, like, its literally in his dialogue; Blake has to explain it to him) that was established in the very episode and remained a consistent character trait throughout the series, the fact you view a guy who expressly has no grasp of any of the stuff being discussed as a more reliable resource than the main character isn't the shows fault.

 

[Bea]

How is it not a counterpoint, you say her arc across those episode was not a thing and was X thing, I explain why I feel differently. Also the continuity of events was developed at that point because Blake revealed the five year mark the very next episode, I'm literally only using information available in the episodes available at the time. You repeating that, that is how you feel doesn't actually serve as a counter argument, its literally you just saying, "I felt this" and fails to address anyone's counterpoints about the framing, narrative, or dialogue.

Click to shrink...

To be blunt, your posts aren't even a counterargument. They're a headcanon based on a pretty common turn of phrase that is often just used to hyperbolically mean "a long time". Do you have any other evidence in the text that this is the intended reading, ideally from this season, given that RWBY has had a massive problem with backfill?

Like you have a right to your headcanon, I have pretty wild headcanons myself (ask me about Sayaka from Madoka sometime) but they aren't really... arguments as such in themselves, at least without substantial evidence from the text.

 

[Squirtodyle]

He did have no idea about such things, (He also didn't know that's what they fight for, like, its literally in his dialogue; Blake has to explain it to him) that was established in the very episode and remained a consistent character trait throughout the series, the fact you view a guy who expressly has no grasp of any of the stuff being discussed as a more reliable resource than the main character isn't the shows fault.

Click to shrink...

I'm sorry, but if the show is going to position the White Fang as, to quote Sun, a group that he "doesn't think there's a Faunus on the planet who hasn't heard of them", and position him as someone aware that the White Fang is a Faunus exclusive group that "uses force to get what they want", it is shockingly poor writing to then say that Sun has no idea about Faunus history and anti-Faunus racism. He cannot both be aware of the White Fang, so famous that he believes every Faunus knows of them, and be aware of their use of force to achieve their goals, without being aware of what those goals are. The White Fang aren't quiet or low-key about what they want.

Also, if you rewatch the episode, Sun isn't shocked about the nature of the White Fang. He's shocked that Blake was a member and then still describes them pejoratively after the exposition dump.

The only way your argument works is if Sun is somehow smart enough to have heard about the White Fang and their methods, but dumb enough that he never once questioned or heard what their goals were, despite Blake spelling out that they attacked anti-Faunus establishments, and attacked companies that used Faunus labor, something Sun has to be aware of if he knows they use force, because if he didn't know what they attacked how would he know they used force at all?

 

[Zam]

To be blunt, your posts aren't even a counterargument. They're a headcanon based on a pretty common turn of phrase that is often just used to hyperbolically mean "a long time". Do you have any other evidence in the text that this is the intended reading, ideally from this season, given that RWBY has had a massive problem with backfill?

Like you have a right to your headcanon, I have pretty wild headcanons myself (ask me about Sayaka from Madoka sometime) but they aren't really... arguments as such in themselves, at least without substantial evidence from the text.

Click to shrink...

You think it has a massive problem with backfill, I feel it is long form storytelling, but by that same token, I think your own argument logically then suffers from the same issue as mine allegedly does, and intentionally ignoring the meaning of the words Weiss uses, to me just feels like ignoring the story for the purposes of being angry at said story.

I'm sorry, but if the show is going to position the White Fang as, to quote Sun, a group that he "doesn't think there's a Faunus on the planet who hasn't heard of them", and position him as someone aware that the White Fang is a Faunus exclusive group that "uses force to get what they want", it is shockingly poor writing to then say that Sun has no idea about Faunus history and anti-Faunus racism. He cannot both be aware of the White Fang, so famous that he believes every Faunus knows of them, and be aware of their use of force to achieve their goals, without being aware of what those goals are. The White Fang aren't quiet or low-key about what they want.

Also, if you rewatch the episode, Sun isn't shocked about the nature of the White Fang. He's shocked that Blake was a member and then still describes them pejoratively after the exposition dump.

The only way your argument works is if Sun is somehow smart enough to have heard about the White Fang and their methods, but dumb enough that he never once questioned or heard what their goals were, despite Blake spelling out that they attacked anti-Faunus establishments, and attacked companies that used Faunus labor, something Sun has to be aware of if he knows they use force, because if he didn't know what they attacked how would he know they used force at all?

Click to shrink...

So you're just going to ignore everything his dialogue says to support your read on the argument that the guy expressly unaware of history taught in classes we have seen characters attend somehow knows more about the WF than Blake and more than he expresses knowledge of because... What?

And he's still framed as having no idea what he's talking about or basic knowledge of them so again, what is your point here?

I mean not to be blunt but the dude is kind of the definition of a himbo, but that's easy, he probably heard about them on the news and internalized nothing more than whatever was said, or heard someone mention the WF in conversation but only in the context of "Faunus group steals stuff" and didn't bother looking into it any deeper.

Like, I feel there's a difference between being critical of a show and just being seemingly intentionally uncharitable towards it, to the point where the stuff characters say has no meaning if it in anyway doesn't serve your critique.

 

[Squirtodyle]

Like, I feel there's a difference between being critical of a show and just being seemingly intentionally uncharitable towards it, to the point where the stuff characters say has no meaning if it in anyway doesn't serve your critique.

Click to shrink...

Blake: (rolls her eyes before closing them and looking at him sadly) "Sun... Are you familiar with the White Fang?"

Sun: "Of course! I don't think there's a Faunus on the planet who hasn't heard of them. Stupid, holier-than-thou creeps that use force to get whatever they want. Bunch of freaks, if you ask me!"

Blake: (sips her drink while listening until she speaks up for the big reveal) "I was once a member of the White Fang."

Sun: (promptly goes cross-eyed and chokes on his drink, making him put it down and wipe his mouth as he holds up a hand to process this information) "Wait a minute, you were a member of the White Fang?!"

Click to shrink...

After this, it's fully Blake exposition.

The flashback shows one more image of three Faunus individuals standing in a dominating manner with malicious grins until Blake puts down her teacup in front of a stunned Sun.

Blake: "So, I left. I decided I no longer wanted to use my skills to aid in their violence, and instead, I would dedicate my life to becoming a Huntress. So here I am: a criminal hiding in plain view, all with the help of a little black bow." (she wiggles her cat ears beneath the fashionable disguise to demonstrate)

Sun: (coming to terms with this) "So... have you told your friends any of this?"

Blake merely looks down in shame and says nothing.

Click to shrink...

Here, Sun is only concerned with whether or not Blake has told any of her friends this. This being public knowlege, as you've specified, means that either the rest of RWBY are also idiots who don't know anything about classes we saw them take, or that Sun is actually concerned about Blake being a member rathsr than concerned he got proven wrong about his surface level understanding of the White Fang.

Then we have the rest of the stuff.

Sun and Blake are then seen walking down an alley.

Sun: (hands behind his head) "So, what's the plan now?"

Blake: (contemplating) "I still don't believe the White Fang is behind these robberies. They've never needed that much Dust before."

Sun: (widening his eyes) "What if they did?" (lowering his arms and pacing in front of Blake as he continues his theory) "I mean... the only way to prove that they didn't do it, is to go to the place where they would most likely go to if they were to do it, and not find them there! Right?"

Blake: "The only thing is, I've no idea where that would be."

Sun: "Well, while I was on the ship, I heard some guys talking about offloading a huge shipment of Dust coming in from Atlas."

Blake: "How huge?"

Sun: "Huge. Big Schnee Company freighter."

Blake: "You're sure?"

Click to shrink...

Here, we see Sun is convinced the White Fang was behind everything, and brings up the idea to prove it to Blake.

the shipment of Schnee Dust containers.

Sun: (off-screen) "Did I miss anything?"

Blake: (looking up as Sun drops down to her right) "Not really. They've offloaded the crates from the boat. Now they're just sitting there."

Sun: "Cool." (holds out one of the green apples in his arms) "I stole you some food!"

Blake: (giving Sun a questioning look) "Do you always break the law without giving a second thought?"

Sun: (defensively countering "Hey, weren't you in a cult or something?" (Blake delivers an angry glare at him) "Okay, too soon!"

Just as he says this, the winds blows all around them, and they look up to see a Bullhead's searchlights flashing around for a landing spot, descending in the middle of the cargo containers and extending a ramp for a black hooded individual with a metallic fanged mask to come out of.

Blake: "Oh no..."

Sun: "Is that them?"

Blake: (staring at the bloody wolf on the back of the man's outfit) "Yes... It's them."

White Fang Soldier: (to the other White Fang members coming from the aircraft, motioning with his rifle) "All right, grab the tow cables!"

Sun: "You really didn't think they were behind it, did you?"

Blake: (staring sadly at the scene) "No. I think deep down I knew. I just didn't want to be right." (she closes her eyes in despair, only to open them suddenly when she hears a new voice)

Click to shrink...

Here, Sun and Blake find out the truth, while Sun mocks the White Fang as being a cult and then Blake admits that she knew deep down that they were behind it all.

After this, Sun has no more lines that aren't battle quips. I've quoted everything Sun says in the episode, and I don't see him saying that he was wrong about the White Fang or that he didn't know about their true nature or that maybe the White Fang aren't so bad. Quite the opposite, actually.

Edit: also, again remembering that this was Volume 1 and we had no later content, Sun isn't portrayed as an idiot here. He's competent, figures out the plan to find the White Fang all on his own, and his hunch that they're the ones behind the robberies are correct. He's shown as being, if not book smart, then definitely sharp.

 

[Bea]

You think it has a massive problem with backfill, I feel it is long form storytelling, but by that same token, I think your own argument logically then suffers from the same issue as mine allegedly does, and intentionally ignoring the meaning of the words Weiss uses, to me just feels like ignoring the story for the purposes of being angry at said story.

Click to shrink...

i'm not ignoring the words Weiss uses, I'm interpreting them as her saying it the same way someone would say "it feels like forever since X". also, the funny thing is that I can even accept your premise and you're still wrong. because I can accept that this stemmed from a psychological coping mechanism. I don't believe that was the intent, but let's say it was. it still manifests as racism. That is literally what it manifests as. That is Weiss' opinion on the Faunus, and it was about the Faunus, not solely the White Fang. Weiss says as much. The arc is still about her getting over her bigotry, it's still poorly done.

 

[Zam]

After this, it's fully Blake exposition.

Here, Sun is only concerned with whether or not Blake has told any of her friends this. This being public knowlege, as you've specified, means that either the rest of RWBY are also idiots who don't know anything about classes we saw them take, or that Sun is actually concerned about Blake being a member rathsr than concerned he got proven wrong about his surface level understanding of the White Fang.


Then we have the rest of the stuff.

Here, we see Sun is convinced the White Fang was behind everything, and brings up the idea to prove it to Blake.


Here, Sun and Blake find out the truth, while Sun mocks the White Fang as being a cult and then Blake admits that she knew deep down that they were behind it all.

After this, Sun has no more lines that aren't battle quips. I've quoted everything Sun says in the episode, and I don't see him saying that he was wrong about the White Fang or that he didn't know about their true nature or that maybe the White Fang aren't so bad. Quite the opposite, actually.

Click to shrink...

So your first section doesn't actually act as a counterpoint to my "Sun knows functionally nothing about the Faunus or White Fang point and has to have it all explained to him and thus his perspective is inherently unreliable" argument, because that's literally what happens.

Your second point is inaccurate because he ends every statement with a question mark, he clearly thinks its possible but isn't sure, also not terribly relevant but (Shrugs).

Finally and as previously noted, there's nothing cult like in their behavior and also as noted, this is followed up by establishing that the White Fang would never work with Roman and thus that something is wrong behind the scenes, making it clear Blake was right and this was abnormal behavior.

i'm not ignoring the words Weiss uses, I'm interpreting them as her saying it the same way someone would say "it feels like forever since X". also, the funny thing is that I can even accept your premise and you're still wrong. because I can accept that this stemmed from a psychological coping mechanism. I don't believe that was the intent, but let's say it was. it still manifests as racism. That is literally what it manifests as. That is Weiss' opinion on the Faunus, and it was about the Faunus, not solely the White Fang. Weiss says as much. The arc is still about her getting over her bigotry, it's still poorly done.

Click to shrink...

And that's fine, but you ignoring the literal meaning of her words, when the only time we are invited into her head or to sympathize with her was when she was talking about her father and then ignoring how the following episode established that the WF have not in fact been at war with her family since forever. Means that you are actively ignoring Weiss's words and the established timeline and the narrative framing in order to reach that conclusion, let alone all the established and implied content before that about her home life and complicated relationship with it and the SDC. Thus, to me its her working through a defense mechanism she used to deal with her shitty and abusive father, IE Scapegoating an organization and group of people that made him angry as the reason for her suffering.

 

[Zam]

Anyway in terms of fandom content, RWBY Couture!

Spoiler

View: https://rwbycouture.tumblr.com/post/672570519144611840/hello-everyone-its-time-to-meet-the-amazing

 

[Zam]

Actually, sorry, so super sorry for the double post but I found something interesting out recently.

Namely, that there were six other species of human and that these weren't notches on an evolution board, but all distinct species that were just closely enough related to us to be on the same general path and for genetic intermingling to happen. (To the point where most humans have DNA from Neanderthals and homo-Sapiens.)

On this regard, Homo Habilis can even be nominally compared to Faunus given they retained a lot of 'animal' traits, IE extended arms, the fur type and such, while still being on the same general level and wavelength as our contemporary ancestors. Sadly, most of these other species died out, some more recently than others and seemingly due to stuff like disease, environmental shifts and the like.

Now, I don't think this was what CRWBY had in mind, or that RWBY's evolutionary process operates on the same system given the 'you are either Faunus or human' that comes from such coupling, but I just find it kinda neat that one can take the above info and determine there are in fact two closely related and equal but distinct species living on Remnant.

 

[Bea]

Not gonna lie though: it is hilarious to hear people say that instead of the perspective of the former member of the group, someone who talks about how the White Fang's shift into extremism has made progress towards their goals but feels they've gone too far in that direction (and as we later find out, that's largely because the commander she followed was a psychopath who only really cared about hurting humans), the character who is the focal protagonist of the White Fang subplot...whom we're really supposed to agree with is a male character.

Click to shrink...

If this was just something Sun said and that was it, I'd probably accept the interpretation that he was supposed to be misguided and wrong. But not only does the show not imply that or frame it as such in any way in the episode itself, every single time this issue comes up in relation to the White Fang it echoes this sentiment. But if you want Blake's opinion, okay. Let's talk about her opinion and how it's framed as her basically only being hopeful when they were engaging in nonviolent resistance that even she herself admits don't work, and the immediate shift into it all being the White Fang evilly wanting to rule via fear the moment they stop engaging in non-violent means of effecting change

Blake: (off-screen) "I was at the front of every rally. I took part in every boycott. I actually thought we were making a difference. But I was just a youthful optimist."

Cutting from the child version of Blake, the blue flag of a white wolf with sad eyes and a circle behind its head is lowered, and raised in its stead is a red monster with three bloody scratches and teeth bared at the world.

Blake: (off-screen) "Then, five years ago, our leader stepped down, and a new one took his place. A new leader, with a new way of thinking."

A quick series of images are shown - Faunus replacing their picket signs with axes and blades, windows being broken, thieves leaping on trains to steal their cargo.

Blake: (off-screen) "Suddenly, our peaceful protests were being replaced with organized attacks. We were setting fire to shops that refused to serve us, hijacking cargo from companies that used Faunus labor. And the worst part was, it was working. We were being treated like equals. But not out of respect... out of fear."

The flashback shows one more image of three Faunus individuals standing in a dominating manner with malicious grins until Blake puts down her teacup in front of a stunned Sun.

Blake: "So, I left. I decided I no longer wanted to use my skills to aid in their violence, and instead, I would dedicate my life to becoming a Huntress. So here I am: a criminal hiding in plain view, all with the help of a little black bow."

Click to shrink...

So this change that is depicted so ominously and according to Blake became "attacks" that they were only being considered equal out of "fear"? That's not associated with Adam taking charge. It's 5 years ago when Ghira was replaced. That means it's her opinion of Sienna's leadership as well.

Not to mention that the entire point of the White Fang subplot is her being forced to admit that Sun was basically totally right about more or less everything he said, she just didn't want to admit it to herself. But this one thing is an exception I guess.

 

[hellgodsrus]

Yeah, look, I will defend RWBY to the hilt on a lot of things - almost everything in fact! - but all this 'the White Fang plot was well written actually' or 'it's the IRA actually' (what?!) is just baffling historical revisionism. I know it's hard to admit this, especially in a climate where admitting ANYTHING is wrong with RWBY often seems like it's going to be the path to saying idiots like the Ironwood or Adam stans are right, but the Faunus and White Fang plotline was so fucking bad.

It only started to get better, ironically, when they hurriedly wrapped it up in V5; not only did this mean that they got rid of the millstone of problems it represented but it also allowed them to actually do some quite subtle things with anti-faunus discrimination in Volume 6 and the Atlas arc.

But arguing that the White Fang's introduction in Volume 1 wasn't luuudicrously problematic, or that somehow Weiss arc in that episode pair wasn't about her racism (???) is just some plain weird Thermian bullshit. Sorry.

Also, the White Fang is nothing like the IRA? Any iteration of the IRA? What?!?

 

[Tylonius]

I mean, the show very clearly doesn't want us to think the White Fang is a good group. It had a good origin, and members of it are good, but in the show's view it as an organization stopped being so when it turned to terrorist activity to achieve it's goals. Sienna getting murdered by Adam is supposed to represent the darkness she supported and allowed to grow in the organization overtaking her more noble goals.

You can argue whether that's a valid position till the cows come home but the show is pretty clear in it's position that it views the actions of Adam, and to a lesser extent Sienna and her version of the Fang, to be bad and worthy of opposition by our heroes, specifically Blake.

 

[Nidhoggr]

Oh hey look, Changyuraptor compiled all of Best Worst Doggo's themes:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHeR_BkuTIk

 

[Unaligned Player]

Sienna
"Violence as a means is agreeable as long as it is tempered by reason."

Adam
"Violence isn't the answer, it is the question, and the answer is yes."

Click to shrink...

The difference between Sienna and Adam's Fangs summed up succinctly.

 

[Tylonius]

That's a real interesting take given that Sienna is presented as a foil to Adam, to highlight how her command of the White Fang has used violence as a means to a noble pursuit in contrast to Adam's senseless violence, and the reason Adam murders her is because she explicitly rejects the darkness that Adam represents and refuses to let overtake the White Fang's goals.

also can't help but to get real "it's the woman's fault that a man murdered her" vibes here

Click to shrink...

She rejects it after allowing it to fester for years, and her only problem with his actions is that it brought too much heat down on them. Sienna might have had noble goals, but she did nothing to stop Adam's actions until it was far too late to help anyone, least of all herself.

And your snide accusations of misogyny are a terrible look, just so you know. Because yeah, Sienna is pretty responsible for her own death. She intentionally nurtured and empowered a budding psychopath because he was useful to her goals. And was then surprised when that psychopath refused to take his punishment lying down and turned his murderous ways on her.

 

[Psyga315]

She rejects it after allowing it to fester for years, and her only problem with his actions is that it brought too much heat down on them. Sienna might have had noble goals, but she did nothing to stop Adam's actions until it was far too late to help anyone, least of all herself.

Click to shrink...

Hell, if anything, she encouraged Adam's violent actions. The only time she stopped Adam from getting too violent aside from her death scene was when she wanted him to focus on the mission.

Then there's the fact that she may have been the one behind the murders of the SDC and causing Weiss to be bigoted towards the Faunus.

 

[Xepheria]

warnings to stop a pattern of behaviour do not mean 'keep going'.

Casually accusing other users of misogyny because they happen to hold a different opinion on an animated TV show is not acceptable on Sufficient Velocity. As @LilithFairen has received previous infractions for this exact behaviour on this exact topic as recently as yesterday, they have been issued a permanent threadban and been infracted with 50 points under Rule 3 - Be Civil.

 

[foamy]

warnings to stop a pattern of behaviour do not mean 'keep going'.

Casually accusing other users of misogyny because they happen to hold a different opinion on an animated TV show is not acceptable on Sufficient Velocity. As @LilithFairen has received previous infractions for this exact behaviour on this exact topic as recently as yesterday, they have been issued a permanent threadban and been infracted with 50 points under Rule 3 - Be Civil.

Click to shrink...

spamclean
Subsequent to this, @LilithFairen was spamcleaned owing to abuse of site functions.

 

[Psyga315]

So... to move away from this topic...

How exactly do you think Volume 9 is gonna be split? Will it focus exclusively on the island residents or will it do a sort of rough split of character focus like they did with the last Volume?