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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • LordYam said:
    Again there were good intentions but I can see why a lot of POC were dissatisfied
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    And others weren't, I could literally find a dissatisfied person or several people for anything, that doesn't inherently mean anything. Not that I am saying the arc was perfect, but just saying that doesn't actually change or address any of my points, IE:
    Zam said:
    ... OK, I'm just gonna say it.

    You do know there were slavery abolitionists since slavery was a thing right? And not just the slaves themselves or other exploited people, but people even born into positions of power who were able to figure out it was wrong and campaign against it.

    The idea that everyone in the past was too bigoted, evil or ignorant to realize what their culture was doing was wrong is a fallacy that actually helps encourage shrugging off the crimes of the past as "Oh well everyone was like that then". No, they weren't and the idea that there weren't is legitimately damaging rather than helpful.
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    Zam said:
    Also, aside but replacing a bad corporate CEO with way too much power, with a good one doesn't actually magically make everything better even if they do make efforts to improve things.

    The inequality, the corruption and abuse are too baked into not just the systems of one company but whole countries, cultures and ideologies.

    And that's not even getting into the fact that "Top down liberation" is a rather flawed concept to begin with.
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    Zam said:
    I feel that a lot of people would benefit from reading up on the IRA and how they started losing a lot of public support in later years thanks to shifts in leadership and corruption, leading to abuse of power and a loss of focus and standards.
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    Didn't the IRA have no problem attacking civilians even early on? Their was the Kingsmill massacre where IRA killed 10 workmen for being Protestant and left the lone Catholic alive as retaliation for another massacre loyalist done. Not attacking the group or people responsible just workers who happen to be Protestant was enough "focus" and "standard" for them to be valid targets at the time early on in the IRA history.
     
    The "White Fang is based off the IRA" always felt to me like a stretch.

    Like, you'd think if they were based off the IRA, there would be more nods to that idea. This is RWBY we're talking about. Subtlety isn't their strong suit.

    If the White Fang were more based around the IRA, we would have more references to them and even CRWBY would bring this notion up when discussing the White Fang plot, especially to reassure fans that's what they based the White Fang on.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Also, Jacques smuggling Dust.

    View: https://ironwoodprotectionsquad.tumblr.com/post/672552099213639680/so-as-i-said-last-night-i-started-making-a-meta
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    I think Jaque smuggling because Ironwood has his head up his ass with bad policies that don't actually help anyone but the Grimm, and the corruption in Atlas being the main reason it wasn't getting as bad as it could be for everyone else is a really good argument against all his pro-Ironwood tags.
    LordYam said:
    I think that RWBY's early volumes definitely could be fixed up. They're very rough in a lot of ways and while they mean well they can be clumsy in how they handle certain things. Things like the Maidens could have also been foreshadowed better.
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    I agree it would be interesting to see what things would be like if they had a budget for more than shoestrings and a runtime less comparable to a movie trailer in the first few seasons. Sadly a lot of the people who want to rewrite it either aren't thinking of that.
    LordYam said:
    2.) Expand the Weiss Banesaw fight. In the story he's literally just a guy with a chainsaw who Weiss fights. I felt that they could have had a more extended conversation, or HE gets a face reveal before Adam. I think this works for two reasons.

    a.) Weiss isn't a bad person but even if she intellectually realizes Faunus are being mistreated and that what's happening is wrong, actually SEEING it is a whole other kettle of fish. Quite a few white people who came down south during the civil rights movements to help were blindsided when they saw the sheer viciousness of the racism, and even Black northerners were taken off guard (Bryan Stevenson of Just Mercy grew up in the North. He was still shocked by how bad things were down south.) If a black guy could be blindsided by how bad racism down south was imagine a privileged heiress being in the same spot.

    b.) The SDC mines are in universe the source of a lot of mistreatment for the Faunus.....yet the viewer never sees it until Adam unmasks in Vol 6. We're only TOLD, which is different from seeing it. Giving Banesaw a face reveal (with injuries/signs of abuse that aren't a brand, like say a breathing apparatus) would show the viewer how bad things are in the mines as well Weiss.
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    These aren't really bad points, but they're so over focused by bad faith arguments that focusing on them feels kind of hollow.
    Erinyes said:
    The early volumes are jank as shit, but I'm not sure that you can actually fix them and still adhere to the limitations of the time. It's easy to say that this scene or that scene should have been added, but you have to remember that in those first two volumes, they were literally finishing the episode hours before it aired. They often had to push episodes back several days because it just wasn't done. If you add anything to V1 or V2, you need to find the thing of equal time and effort that you're going to remove to balance it. I'm sure there are so many things that could have been done better because V1 in particular just does not flow. But talking about adding shit to fix anything in V1 or V2 just doesn't jive with the reality of the production in those days.
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    People making official manga adaptations and the like would have time to do a lot of this stuff though, and give people more reasons to buy them for all the stuff the show didn't have time to do.
    Psyga315 said:
    Could be easy if you add up the hypothetical scenario with "what if the effort and resources they had in later volumes were applied to the early volumes", which easily adds about an hour of content to be added.
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    They were putting in the same amount of effort, but they lacked for time, experience, resources, and everything else it takes to make a show.
    LordYam said:
    When you have the civil rights group (or former rights group that got corrupted) as a goon squad for the villains it's not a good look unless you handle it with care.
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    First reference to them in the series itself is them attacking more peaceful protestors arguing for what the White Fang is about. For the sake of comparison, if Malcom X was telling people to beat up MLK you'd know something's up. Lisa Lavender having a couple seconds about Sienna Khan denouncing claims that it was the White Fang doing it and Blake using that during her search for the Dust thieves at the end of the volume would foreshadow a few things at once.
    LordYam said:
    When you're family wealth is built on the minority being brutalized having them not face it at some point makes any change insincere.
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    Really her family's wealth is more about exploiting everyone poor enough, the fact that most of the people poor enough to be that exploited that way are a minority is more of a systemic issue beyond her ability to deal with alone.
    Psyga315 said:
    Especially since the SDC burn never really factored into shit and is just there for Adam to say that Blake dumping him was somehow worse than a scalding iron to the face.
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    It shows that he's just using anything he can to get his way with no regard for what it means. If it was truly that damaging he's use it to show why he doesn't trust humans instead of hiding it behind a Grimm mask he admits is to make him scarier rather than to prove any real point. That he'd use it on Blake instead of anyone who it might mean something to just shows how small and petty he is.
    Psyga315 said:
    Subtlety isn't their strong suit.
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    And yet so many people miss so many things.
    Psyga315 said:
    If the White Fang were more based around the IRA, we would have more references to them and even CRWBY would bring this notion up when discussing the White Fang plot, especially to reassure fans that's what they based the White Fang on.
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    The IRA is only one influence, and naming every group to have issues like that instead of pointing out the most famous case would take far too much time for a lot of people to follow along.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    People making official manga adaptations and the like would have time to do a lot of this stuff though, and give people more reasons to buy them for all the stuff the show didn't have time to do.
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    Well, unfortunately, the official manga adaptation is trash and stripped significant parts of the story out without adding anything worthwhile.

    The non-canon stuff can be fun, but Japan only has interest in the Beacon era it seems, which is the era of the story I have the least interest in.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    Didn't the IRA have no problem attacking civilians even early on? Their was the Kingsmill massacre where IRA killed 10 workmen for being Protestant and left the lone Catholic alive as retaliation for another massacre loyalist done. Not attacking the group or people responsible just workers who happen to be Protestant was enough "focus" and "standard" for them to be valid targets at the time early on in the IRA history.
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    Not that I recall, most of the early records of the IRA's efforts that I found indicated they might set bombs and such but would then sound the alarm so civilian personnel could escape and then detonate it, costing the crown money but avoiding giving the crown easy propaganda wins. The more senselessly brutal stuff came later.
    Psyga315 said:
    The "White Fang is based off the IRA" always felt to me like a stretch.

    Like, you'd think if they were based off the IRA, there would be more nods to that idea. This is RWBY we're talking about. Subtlety isn't their strong suit.

    If the White Fang were more based around the IRA, we would have more references to them and even CRWBY would bring this notion up when discussing the White Fang plot, especially to reassure fans that's what they based the White Fang on.
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    Comparing them to the IRA and saying they are based on them are two different things.

    Me (Looks at Adam's abuse of Blake, of Cinder's hinted at abusive childhood, of Ironwood's fall to villainy) Are you just lying to me?
     
    Zam said:
    Comparing them to the IRA and saying they are based on them are two different things.

    Me (Looks at Adam's abuse of Blake, of Cinder's hinted at abusive childhood, of Ironwood's fall to villainy) Are you just lying to me?
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    Okay, point retracted.

    Not exactly good examples of subtlety given that Adam has the tact of a lifetime movie villain, Cinder's backstory is literally Cinderella but replace "Oh, Sing Sweet Nightingale" with an edgy song, and don't even get me started on Ironwood, where he wished he had grown a mustache so he may twirl it.
     
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    Zam said:
    Not that I recall, most of the early records of the IRA's efforts that I found indicated they might set bombs and such but would then sound the alarm so civilian personnel could escape and then detonate it, costing the crown money but avoiding giving the crown easy propaganda wins. The more senselessly brutal stuff came later.
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    From what I read it was a bit of a mix of warning and not warning? They where pretty brutal if the Kingsmill massacre is anything to go by. That was early on in their history.

    With Claudy bombing where they pulled a US cop move "we have reviewed our own members conduct and found no wrong doing" and denied any involvement. But in 2003 it was reviewed and showed that they where responsible. So they are willing to lie and try to cover up their involvement.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Okay, point retracted.

    Not exactly good examples of subtlety given that Adam has the tact of a lifetime movie villain, Cinder's backstory is literally Cinderella but replace "Oh, Sing Sweet Nightingale" with an edgy song, and don't even get me started on Ironwood, where he wished he had grown a mustache so he may twirl it.
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    I was referencing Blake's experiences as an abusive victim of him, which many analysts had been picking up on before V3. Again, I am referencing traits that hinted at her backstory before we saw it. You ignoring ever red flag he waved isn't RT's fault.

    MonochromeXClown said:
    From what I read it was a bit of a mix of warning and not warning? They where pretty brutal if the Kingsmill massacre is anything to go by. That was early on in their history.

    With Claudy bombing where they pulled a US cop move "we have reviewed our own members conduct and found no wrong doing" and denied any involvement. But in 2003 it was reviewed and showed that they where responsible. So they are willing to lie and try to cover up their involvement.
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    That was around mid troubles and also done by a group called the South Armagh Republican Action Force, not the official IRA, so basically an Adam like splinter cell for RWBY comparisons sake.

    That was about 12 years into the Troubles over an immediate thing, so kind of meeting my general point of comparison; also from what I am reading it says they tried to send the usual warning but telephones being down stopped it.
     
    Zam said:
    That was about 12 years into the Troubles over an immediate thing, so kind of meeting my general point of comparison; also from what I am reading it says they tried to send the usual warning but telephones being down stopped it.
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    Downed communications, ya say?
    *looks at Remnant's currently busted CCT*
    Huh. Fancy that.
     
    Pugman said:
    Her issues are not with the faunus.
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    It's weird how the episode centered around her issues with the Faunus certainly not portray things that way at all. The entire framing of the episode is around somebody overcoming their prejudices due to be a privileged rich girl, not somebody lashing out at somebody else due to trauma as a result of parenting. (The very idea that Weiss is traumatized itself is pretty much entirely backfill.) The fact that everything is handled so neatly and patly doesn't actually provide evidence in favor of that depiction, because that isn't how displayed vengeance as the result of trauma or an abuser work either, but because the writers simply had no idea what they were doing trying to write that arc and as a result it is incredibly awkward and messy.
     
    Given literally the only time we are invited into Weiss's head and more to the point, to sympathize with her rather than see her as a brat, is when she talks about her fathers fury, (Along with the fact, we know the WF didn't turn violent until five years ago, but Weiss talks as if this has been a lifelong problem) I think anyone who missed that detail just wasn't paying attention.
     
    Zam said:
    This is hilarious

    View: https://shortkingvi.tumblr.com/post/672687556775821312/

    /horrifying

    View: https://aspiringwarriorlibrarian.tumblr.com/post/672692592268410880/

    and oh my gosh XD

    View: https://ashelyskies.tumblr.com/post/672689955231924224/
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    I demand Glynda's sexual tension is with Cardin, who like Jaune faked his transcripts to get in. Unlike Jaune however he can shout it from the roofs because his dad is in the Vale Council. Maybe have that be the basis of/replacement for the bullying arc?

    Oh, then Ozpin is actually fired at the end of V3 by Cardin's dad manipulating the Council when Cardin complains about Oz getting between him and Glynda.
     
    Based Bean said:
    It's weird how the episode centered around her issues with the Faunus certainly not portray things that way at all. The entire framing of the episode is around somebody overcoming their prejudices due to be a privileged rich girl, not somebody lashing out at somebody else due to trauma as a result of parenting. (The very idea that Weiss is traumatized itself is pretty much entirely backfill.) The fact that everything is handled so neatly and patly doesn't actually provide evidence in favor of that depiction, because that isn't how displayed vengeance as the result of trauma or an abuser work either, but because the writers simply had no idea what they were doing trying to write that arc and as a result it is incredibly awkward and messy.
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    *points to the Arma Gigas and Weiss' scar*
     
    And I would also again like to note that Weiss's word aren't reflective of reality, because "As long as I can remember" does not line up with the WF only growing violent five years prior, so this is very much just Weiss subconsciously blaming an external force for her fathers behavior.
     
    Zam said:
    And I would also again like to note that Weiss's word aren't reflective of reality, because "As long as I can remember" does not line up with the WF only growing violent five years prior, so this is very much just Weiss subconsciously blaming an external force for her fathers behavior.
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    I mean it could be Weiss was speaking a bit hyperbole. Also having your family targeted when your a kid tend to stick out more in your memory. Since Weiss would have been 12 when violence was happening.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    I mean it could be Weiss was speaking a bit hyperbole. Also having your family targeted when your a kid tend to stick out more in your memory. Since Weiss would have been 12 when violence was happening.
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    The issue here is there aren't real people, they are characters who are scripted to say things that matter for the sake of the story and their arcs. So the fact Weiss sad something that we an episode later found out is factually incorrect and that by the time we hit V2, Weiss's has recontextualized her trauma at the correct target, IE her father, I can't reach any other conclusion. Like one could maybe call it a bit rough or messy but I can't say its not there.
     
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