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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • RoseEmbolism said:
    So I recently rewatched Season 4 (mainly to see what people were complaining about), and I noted an interesting thing about Ironwood.

    On a shallow analysis, he's great. He's calm, authoritative, he says Weiss is making sense, he's opposing Jacques, runner up for the "Gendo Ikari Father of the Year Award". So yeah, at a glance the looks heroic.

    But...when you look at his actual plan? Stop selling dust. Sealing off the border. All in case of attack. It's nonsensical. Which kingdom is actually going to attack Atlas? Sealing the borders is not only bad strategy, but also a sign that Ironwood is already working straight out of fear.

    He superficially looks good, because his crippling psychological defect semblance makes him appear calm and focused. But that doesn't mean his plans were ever good.
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    Also fucking with other Kingdoms via a Dust ban in response to Cinder framing Atlas for the attack on Beacon is not a great way to reassure the other Kingdoms that Atlas is totally innocent despite all the footage of their drones gunning down civilians right before the CCT fell. So that's also a thing, he really has always been pretty terrible at PR and diplomacy.

    Even him supporting Weiss at the party is a bit sketchy when you realize that to outside observers it looked like Weiss intentionally tried to murder a civilian just for saying stupid shit and Ironwood's response was just "she's the only one making sense around here" instead of like, trying to figure out what the hell that was about and whether or not it's going to happen again.

    It won't because it was an accident on her part and she got the heck out of the psychologically harmful situation that made her Semblance lash out like that as soon as she could. But as a Headmaster Ironwood probably should have been a bit more concerned about Weiss nearly becoming a murderer if not for his intervention.
     
    Also he suspected danger in Mistral in V4 and by V5 had withdrawn all his support which is what he did to Mantle once he deemed it a danger as well.
     
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    gman391 said:
    I always feel like people complaining at how quickly Ironwood snowboarded down the slippery slope while yelling "I AM MAKING BAD DECISIONS TO THE EXTREME!" are sort of missing the meta text.

    The narrative point the Miles and Kerry absolutely wanted to hammer home in V7/8 is that Hard Man Decision making, trying to be the singular hero, is bad. That it doesn't just take one man willing to do what needs to be done. It takes people working together, and unity is always better than division. That just trusting the authorities to protect people doesn't always work.

    And while you might argue that Ironwood's villany descent was clumsy, I think that given the amount of Adam-stans that came out at the end of V6, that Kerry and Miles were like 'well subtlety doesn't work, let's try a sledgehammer' and I can't really blame them for that. Does it make it somewhat clunky? A bit, but sometimes you just need to be very very blatant or people won't get it.

    (Or in this case people will get it and then ignore it because it's not what they wanted to hear, yeee)
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    gman391 said:
    I'm somewhat sympathetic to people who think that Ironwood's sudden yet inevitable betrayal was too sudden. Because it very much requires a lot of contextual clues put together from previous seasons, if you somehow manage to ignore 7's opening of 'IRONWOOD AS BIG BROTHER' imagery. Which if you're inclined to like Ironwood, can be seen as a bait and switch.

    However, I am way more on board CRWBY using sledgehammers because this fandom seems willfully obtuse at times.
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    I've no issue with Ironwood being the bad guy. He's on the opposite side of the good guy team, and nothing from this shows run over the first 6 volumes indicated a remotely grey on grey conflict. V7 had him break down and gave good reasons not to side with him (his complete disregard for the fate of Mantle). However, it also didn't give RWBY a solid counter narrative to push it. As you put it susinctly, it feels like the writers are trying to drive a point home after seeing the V7 discussion not fall the way they liked, which results in it feeling clumsy and some fans feeling annoyed at somethinng that feels like it was driven by out of universe concerns rather than in story progression.

    Jcogginsa said:
    You're acting as if Ironwood was acting rationally prior to that moment, but he wasn't. He's been in a psychotic break since volume 7, he wasn't just going to stop acting psychotic randomly./
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    In V7 the conflict existed in a question of whether utilitarian ethics were justifiable. Prior to the finale start, Ironwood was under the impression that getting amity up would end the Grimm threat and Salem for good, and his decision making should be judged based on the information he had at the time. The fault lied in the fact that rather than spreading the harm to minimise collateral to any one group, he just pushed it all onto Mantle which caused new issues. His decision making prior to the chess piece was rational and hella classist. After that he starts spiralling.

    Jcogginsa said:
    It's entirely wrong that they have no method of slowing Salem down, because Ironwood literally has to do that in order for his plan to work. He can't just wave the relic and say "Make Atlas higher!"

    It's established that Salem cannot be destroyed. She can still be slowed down, and her own minions acknowledge that Atlas teaming up with Vacuo means she loses.

    To be frank, it's arguable that killing Fria isn't the most pragmatic thing to do. "Salem is trying to suss out the Maiden's location by making you panic" is not a hard conclusion to reach when you stop and think about it. But Part of Ironwood's Hero complex means that he can't accept the possibility that he's acting irrationally. He does not believe himself to be capable of panic, so he cannot conceive that the enemy would make a plan that is reliant on that.
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    My mistake in phrasing, by slow her down I meant provide meaningful resistance once she entered the field, rather than 40k pdf style speed bumps until someone who can actually hold the line shows up. Up until the OZma cane nuke, they had nothing that could do anything to the whale considering the blast range on the dustt nuke shown. His plans assumed they couldn't stop Salems approach with the forces they had available to them so they had to run away before she was anywhere near them, hence abandoning Mantle and running immediately.

    I'd assume that the Vacou issue would be down to the Relic of destruction seeing as Atlas was the worlds only military and more huntsmen won't help against the Grimm storm the whale brings as support units. Moreover, once Salem entered the field, they wouldn't be able to get a message out and have help arrive before that became an issue. RWBY was in Atlas several weeks/months prior to Salem's arrival and Vacou support would have put her assault on a tight timetable before the Relic effectively rendered it mute.

    Jcogginsa said:
    To be frank, it's arguable that killing Fria isn't the most pragmatic thing to do. "Salem is trying to suss out the Maiden's location by making you panic" is not a hard conclusion to reach when you stop and think about it. But Part of Ironwood's Hero complex means that he can't accept the possibility that he's acting irrationally. He does not believe himself to be capable of panic, so he cannot conceive that the enemy would make a plan that is reliant on that.
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    This I'd heavily disagree with. The Relic of Creation is the only viable method of evacing Atlas and Mantle under both Ruby and Ironwoods plans. Fria seemed frail enough that trying to move her down there during an active Grimm invasion is a high risk proposition considering any of Salems agents, including unknown infiltrators, could viable get a shot of killing her from strain if nothing else and the maiden powers leave the control of the Good guys side and Atlas is buried under Grimm and murdered to the last man.

    Every moment you waste in employing the plan hundreds of soldiers and thousands of civilians are dying. You can never be sure that Fria's secure unless you can force Salem into retreat and fully clear out your base which you can't do. The ideal situation is to have winter personally escort Fria to the vault with both parties fully understanding that if it looks like Fria's life is in damger, them Winter has to claim the powers immediatly else risk the lives of millions if you can spare sufficient guard. Just Claim them immediately if you can't.
     
    Eos_Astraeus said:
    My mistake in phrasing, by slow her down I meant provide meaningful resistance once she entered the field, rather than 40k pdf style speed bumps until someone who can actually hold the line shows up. Up until the OZma cane nuke, they had nothing that could do anything to the whale considering the blast range on the dustt nuke shown. His plans assumed they couldn't stop Salems approach with the forces they had available to them so they had to run away before she was anywhere near them, hence abandoning Mantle and running immediately.

    I'd assume that the Vacou issue would be down to the Relic of destruction seeing as Atlas was the worlds only military and more huntsmen won't help against the Grimm storm the whale brings as support units. Moreover, once Salem entered the field, they wouldn't be able to get a message out and have help arrive before that became an issue. RWBY was in Atlas several weeks/months prior to Salem's arrival and Vacou support would have put her assault on a tight timetable before the Relic effectively rendered it mute.



    This I'd heavily disagree with. The Relic of Creation is the only viable method of evacing Atlas and Mantle under both Ruby and Ironwoods plans. Fria seemed frail enough that trying to move her down there during an active Grimm invasion is a high risk proposition considering any of Salems agents, including unknown infiltrators, could viable get a shot of killing her from strain if nothing else and the maiden powers leave the control of the Good guys side and Atlas is buried under Grimm and murdered to the last man.

    Every moment you waste in employing the plan hundreds of soldiers and thousands of civilians are dying. You can never be sure that Fria's secure unless you can force Salem into retreat and fully clear out your base which you can't do. The ideal situation is to have winter personally escort Fria to the vault with both parties fully understanding that if it looks like Fria's life is in damger, them Winter has to claim the powers immediatly else risk the lives of millions if you can spare sufficient guard. Just Claim them immediately if you can't.
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    1. Again, for Ironwood's plans to work he HAS to be able to meaningfully slow Salem down, because it takes time to put his plan into action and he has to keep her at bay in the meantime.

    2. Ironwood does not know the Whale exists when he makes his plan, so the whale does not factor into it. And again, his plan has to assume that he can stop Salem's approach because his plan cannot work if they don't.

    3. And rushing to Fria exposes her position to a powerful enemy agent. At bare minimum, No one should be going to Fria until Cinder is either captured, or engaged in combat.
     
    Eos_Astraeus said:
    nothing from this shows run over the first 6 volumes indicated a remotely grey on grey conflict
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    Except for maybe the first conflict of the Faunus subplot.

    "My family had been hunted down and executed by the White Fang and that's why I'm prejudiced against Faunus!" vs. "We were tired of being pushed around by humans! Your family wasn't doing us any favors!"
     
    Pugman said:
    And it could of been much worse if Ruby and friends and then Blake and the New Faunus Brotherhood had not been there.
    The New Faunus Brotherhood did what Ironwood claims his army is around for, defending.
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    But instead, he turtled up behind his borders and left his kingdoms allies to fend for themselves. He is really good at not doing his job.
     
    If their ever was a RWBY Remake. I kinda hope they rework some of the Semblances. Like Adam can create energy clones Weiss's glyphs don't have very clear limitations thoughts? Me personally would split Dust Glyphs and Summoning into two sort of Sub Semblances. You can either do one or the other but if your a Schnee you'll definitely get one.
     
    when the gods eventually get called down and Ruby and Co. have to talk to them, I hope the 4 relic spirits actually speak up on their behalf.
    I mean, we can tell Jinn grew a little fond of them and we see her sad to answer Cinder's question knowing it would harm them. Meanwhile Ambrosius was probably thrilled to solved such intricate requests after so long, and then in comes Cinder with "Make FIRE".
    Can't wait to see how our heroes basically befriend Destruction and Choice.
     
    Pugman said:
    Meanwhile Ambrosius was probably thrilled to solved such intricate requests after so long, and then in comes Cinder with "Make FIRE".
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    And then he brings up the time Ozpin asked him to lift Atlas up and inadvertently caused a divide between Atlas and Mantle. Everyone gets an awkward feeling as the Gods are like "... Yeah... That happened."
     
    Psyga315 said:
    And then he brings up the time Ozpin asked him to lift Atlas up and inadvertently caused a divide between Atlas and Mantle. Everyone gets an awkward feeling as the Gods are like "... Yeah... That happened."
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    Exacerbated. There is every indication that the class divide between the neighborhoods that became Atlas and those that remained Mantle predated Atlas.
     
    Pugman said:
    when the gods eventually get called down and Ruby and Co. have to talk to them, I hope the 4 relic spirits actually speak up on their behalf.
    I mean, we can tell Jinn grew a little fond of them and we see her sad to answer Cinder's question knowing it would harm them. Meanwhile Ambrosius was probably thrilled to solved such intricate requests after so long, and then in comes Cinder with "Make FIRE".
    Can't wait to see how our heroes basically befriend Destruction and Choice.
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    They would make for good impartial witnesses I think. Lay out the facts of what the new humans had done before the heroes and what not plead their case.
     
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