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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Jcogginsa said:
    Multiple alternatives to Ironwood's plan were given, and all of them would have succeeded if not for Ironwood himself interfering.
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    Hell even with his interference the cast still managed to evacuate everyone to safety.

    Its not their fault the situation kept changing so rapidly that they basically spent all of the V7 finale and V8 putting out or escaping fires, having to adjust on the fly, that's down to Ironwood and Sale, which is what made it so tense and stressful, they couldn't just go "One plan solves everything" they had to keep working on the fly like someone actually would in an evolving disaster scenario.
    Jcogginsa said:
    I think part of the issue is that we see "Volume 8" and assume that the show is further along than it actually is.

    They introduced the Relics in the 4th season, and have only introduced 2 so far. We're not close to the end game yet people.

    (And that's assuming Salem is even the final boss. It's still possible for the Gods to take that roll. This show was inspired by Final Fantasy, fist fighting the gods is a genuine possibility here. )
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    Aaaallllll of this, like we aren't even technically done with the Atlas 'arc' so to speak, yeah we left the kingdom, but V9 is basically grappling with the fallout rather than moving onto new story horizons like V6 to V7 was.

    This too, we didn't even meet Salem till V3, didn't even find out she was immortal until V6 and the cast didn't even engage with her personally until V8, narratively, having solutions to the Salem problem before they've even personally met her would be dramatically and narratively stupid.

    Plus this too, we've no idea how this is going to end.
     
    Zam said:
    I don't see how, I explained how it could have worked even without Oscar's intervention and also Atlas isn't the only country with access to Dust or technology, like, "Lots of Dust = Big Bomb" seems like one of the most straightforward concepts, so I see no logical reason why other nations couldn't make their own.

    Vacuo is also inundated with people who can fight, be they Hunters or not, its not a place rife with squish civilians based on what we've described and its purported to have the strongest Headmaster to boot.
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    I still don't see how an endless army of Grimm that can only be destroyed by a massive weapon that was very much not just a lot of Dust stapled to a lighter is something that could be stopped by the "strongest Headmaster" given that Ozpin himself was killed by one Maiden. Assuming that Vacuo is capable of creating a weapon of equal potency to the most technologically advanced nation in the world of RWBY is a pretty massive assumption, as is the idea that their army would fare any better against Salem's Grimm than Atlas's would when Atlas still had enormous amounts of manpower fighting on the frontlines, including hunters.
    Jcogginsa said:
    They introduced the Relics in the 4th season, and have only introduced 2 so far. We're not close to the end game yet people.
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    that's a big fuckin problem all on its own lmao

    I've been watching RWBY since I was I was in the middle of secondary school, I'm now completing my fifth year of university. If it's been eight years and they aren't even close to the endgame that's a condemnation of the show, not an excuse.

    Also, can you point out the alternatives you mentioned? Preferably ones that aren't evacuating people or buying time, given that that's what we're holding up as problematic? When we say "alternatives" we mean solutions that will last longer than it takes for Salem to shrug her shoulders and move on.

    If the people in this thread are complaining about Salem's immortality making any plan against her temporary at best while never ever having given any idea of what can be done to stop the root cause of the threat, and the response to that is to point out the plans that would have lead to temporarily buying time that will never really amount to anything before the next big attack, we'll never get anywhere.

    Like, it's been eight years since RWBY came out, and the cast has, at best, achieved tiny, mostly personal victories or have simply delayed the big bad. And it's not impossible to write a story about a horrific implacable monster that you can nevertheless eke out small victories from, and about how those victories should be celebrated and aren't worthless. But RWBY isn't trying to be a story about a fundamentally doomed world where the characters understand that the best they can do is take the victories as they come, it's trying to be a story about how togetherness and unity will overcome any threat and even Salem would fall before the world united, and then only ever shows the villains making great strides forward and achieving meaningful, lasting victories.

    Do we have to wait another eight years to get to the endgame? Is that how this is going to shake out? Does the show itself become immune to criticism because it's not done yet, even though it's had nearly a full decade to reveal answers? And like, when you have shows like She-Ra that put out five seasons in less than two years and tell a complete story with a myth arc and a satisfying conclusion, how exactly can RWBY continue to justify the glacial pace that it goes at?
     
    Squirtodyle said:
    I still don't see how an endless army of Grimm that can only be destroyed by a massive weapon that was very much not just a lot of Dust stapled to a lighter is something that could be stopped by the "strongest Headmaster" given that Ozpin himself was killed by one Maiden. Assuming that Vacuo is capable of creating a weapon of equal potency to the most technologically advanced nation in the world of RWBY is a pretty massive assumption, as is the idea that their army would fare any better against Salem's Grimm than Atlas's would when Atlas still had enormous amounts of manpower fighting on the frontlines, including hunters.
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    Atlas's army is primarily made up of grunts that can't handle more than mook Grimm. We don't know what went into the bomb, but the idea that every other nation is so far behind Atlas they can't produce a bomb is frankly preposterous and based on nothing. Atlas being the most advanced technologically doesn't mean everyone else is working with 1930s tech. They have the strongest headmaster, tons of Hunters and vastly large arrays of people who can fight at similar levels besides that. The idea they're helpless is frankly baseless.

    Squirtodyle said:
    I've been watching RWBY since I was I was in the middle of secondary school, I'm now completing my fifth year of university. If it's been eight years and they aren't even close to the endgame that's a condemnation of the show, not an excuse.
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    Honestly I feel this video conveys my views quite neatly, but to put a long story short, ATLA is a short form story, with the main villains and threats established in the first season and everything after that being building on that, not thing more nothing less. RWBY is long form storytelling, with villains layered in mystery and misdirection, with an ever evolving and expanding storyline. Neither one is inherently good or bad.


    Squirtodyle said:
    Also, can you point out the alternatives you mentioned? Preferably ones that aren't evacuating people or buying time, given that that's what we're holding up as problematic? When we say "alternatives" we mean solutions that will last longer than it takes for Salem to shrug her shoulders and move on.

    If the people in this thread are complaining about Salem's immortality making any plan against her temporary at best while never ever having given any idea of what can be done to stop the root cause of the threat, and the response to that is to point out the plans that would have lead to temporarily buying time that will never really amount to anything before the next big attack, we'll never get anywhere.
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    Again to point you back to FMA Brotherhod, this is like demanding Ed & Al have a solution for Father before they've even had their first encounter with him. Its also like demanding people in general have a way to make natural disasters stop forever, cos if not its pointless so they should all give up and go hide in a bunker.

    Quite frankly it a fallacious premise you're working from to begin with anyway, cos it's fallacious to say that something must be the case because in your eyes the unfinished show hasn't proven its existence yet to you and you alone.
     
    Zam said:
    Honestly I feel this video conveys my views quite neatly, but to put a long story short, ATLA is a short form story, with the main villains and threats established in the first season and everything after that being building on that, not thing more nothing less. RWBY is long form storytelling, with villains layered in mystery and misdirection, with an ever evolving and expanding storyline. Neither one is inherently good or bad.
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    This is blatantly false.
    The show Avatar: The Last Airbender also "misdirects" you about who it's villains are, and has them surrounded by an air of mystery. It does introduce new primary villains over the seasons, as well as new elements - such as key threats and abilities - to them.

    In Season One of AtLA, our main villains/antagonists are Zuko (about whose villain status we are certainly misdirected, and whom we do not yet know a lot about) and Admiral Zhao. Admiral Zhao changes his plan towards the end of the season to capturing the moon spirit - however, this also introduces an element (the Library) that pays off later, in season 2 and 3.
    We are aware of the Fire Lord at this point, but he is utterly cloaked in mystery to us. We know essentially nothing about him, or his abilities, we only know that at some end point, he must be fought and defeated - but even our protagonists are not yet very concerned with that.

    In Season Two of AtLA, our primary villain switches to being Azula. She comes out of nowhere for most intents and purposes, brings entirely new abilities to the field, and very much expands the storyline especially regarding Zuko. We do in turn learn more about Zuko - he is very much expanded upon, his storyline grows greatly, and much of what we were earlier misdirected about is shown (with some only being revealed in Season 3). Do note that we do not learn everything about Azula either.
    We do learn more about the Fire Lord, but not everything yet. Misdirection continues. However, an entirely new element is introduced - Sozins Comet, which entirely changes the direction of the storyline, adding hereto-unknown time pressure to defeat the Fire Lord and threatening to give him unprecedented abilities (=his abilities are greatly expanded upon).

    In Season Three, the Fire Lord is finally our main villain. He is encountered directly twice, foils our protagonists plots directly, is their primary thought and focus. Yet we are still mislead by reveals about what he plans to several times. At this point, this includes Zuko, who has stopped being an antagonist. Azula keeps being one, but switches into a secondary role - revealing much about her character which we had previously not known, expanding upon her and in some case showing things which we previously thought to be otherwise (=misdirection). A lot of the mysteries of the show - how certain things happened etc. - are at this point answered, but the show still sets up new ones in many episodes, such as how Aang should morally handle dealing with the Fire Lord, which becomes a primary motivation (a question still debated to this day).

    This is not a matter of short-form vs. long-form storytelling.
    This is a matter of set-up vs. pay-off.
    What was done in Avatar: The Last Airbender was properly setting up plot threads from the beginning, resolving and evolving them as they went, and not making up entirely new ones that would affect the whole setting without making sure they fit.
    There is plenty of long-form storytelling that can do this, it is not a matter of being short. If you want to see a masterclass in doing so, the most well-known example is One Piece.
    However, if you want to talk about long-form storytelling that just makes up shit as it goes along? Then you are talking about Supernatural. That is what you should compare RWBY to.
    (credit to someone else, whom I may edit in, for that comparison)

    <Voltaire>
     
    &era System said:
    This is blatantly false.
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    It literally isn't as the video explains, we know about Sozen's comet, the Fire Nation & Fire Lord within the first few episodes; we have our main villain, we have our ticking clock and we have our overarching goal, learn all the elements, and end the war.

    What's more all of the characters broad arcs are introduced in the first season and refined on without much in the way of major shifts, be it ideologically or personality wise.

    This isn't a chastisement of the series, its merely acknowledging it tells a different kind of story to RWBY, both are equally fine methods of conveying one's ideas.

    &era System said:
    This is not a matter of short-form vs. long-form storytelling.
    This is a matter of set-up vs. pay-off.
    What was done in Avatar: The Last Airbender was properly setting up plot threads from the beginning, resolving and evolving them as they went, and not making up entirely new ones that would affect the whole setting without making sure they fit.
    There is plenty of long-form storytelling that can do this, it is not a matter of being short. If you want to see a masterclass in doing so, the most well-known example is One Piece.
    However, if you want to talk about long-form storytelling that just makes up shit as it goes along? Then you are talking about Supernatural. That is what you should compare RWBY to.
    (credit to someone else, whom I may edit in, for that comparison)
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    ... Is someone else writing your responses? I don't understand the "Credit" thing otherwise.

    Also you do know Salem was the fifth planned character when RWBY was first being created right and that V9 has been planned since the early days, as was Pyrrha's death, the Fall of Beacon and so on right? The idea RWBY introduces stuff made up off the cuff is literally false.
     
    Zam said:
    It literally isn't as the video explains, we know about Sozen's comet, the Fire Nation & Fire Lord within the first few episodes; we have our main villain, we have our ticking clock and we have our overarching goal, learn all the elements, and end the war.
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    Again, this does not hold up. The video does not hold up, nor does your information about AtLA - did you watch the show?

    Nobody knew that Sozen's Comet would return, this was entirely found out during the trip to the library in the desert. It did not act as a ticking clock, but as a historical event.
    The first goal was thus merely for Aang to learn all the elements and overthrow the Fire Lord at some point - hence, they did not hurry, but went on a lot of side trips, goofed around, and other such things.
    They did know about the Fire Lord, but we do not see him act any actions that have any immediate effect on the present in Season One. In Season Two, he primarily sends Azula after our protagonists. Only in Season Three, does he ever take any real action. He is not the "main villain" for two seasons, he is a distant threat and motivation.

    As for what the video and you said regarding character development: this too is blatantly false.
    The video uses Sokka as it's primary example, saying that is character arc is set up and resolved in one season (the first), and that he only has a singular one. Did you not find it weird that it only talks about a single character?
    Almost every other notable character in AtLA has more, and more complex, character arcs like that, spread over multiple seasons. Aang has to deal with losing his people (introduced in season 1, primarily resolved there), learning to accept being the Avatar (introduced in season 1, spread over all seasons), his attraction to Katara (primarily Season 2 and 3), facing actually having to kill the Fire Lord (Season 3), and many more things.
    And, of course, the video entirely leaves out Zuko - you know, who famously shifts his primary, driving motivation of honour, and what it means to him?
    The only element of that which was set up in season one was that Zuko cared about honour, and wanted to restore it - you could not reasonably think that he would radically alter his notion thereof (arguably discard it) at this point, that was established in later seasons.
    To say that AtLA handles character arcs in such a manner is utterly disingenious.


    Again, do note my comparison to One Piece. That (and many other examples) is how long-form storytelling is done properly, which the video misses entirely.
    RWBY decided to introduce elements like the Maidens, or Penny, or many more of that magnitude, entirely without planning. That does not actually establish mystery, nor does it allow for "dynamic shifts" in the story because there is no actual dynamic to it - that is like claiming that getting randomly thrown about in a hurricane, or by bumber cars, is "dynamic".


    <Voltaire>
    oh, and since you did inquire about why I would sign a post like that:
    as several things do indicate (name, signature, avatar, pronouns), we are Plural, thus more than one person sharing a body (yes, that is a thing IRL, look it up or read the linked thread), so on the occasions where it matters who wrote a specific post on this forum, the post gets signed.
     
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    &era System said:
    Again, this does not hold up. The video does not hold up, nor does your information about AtLA - did you watch the show?

    Nobody knew that Sozen's Comet would return, this was entirely found out during the trip to the library in the desert. It did not act as a ticking clock, but as a historical event.
    The first goal was thus merely for Aang to learn all the elements and overthrow the Fire Lord at some point - hence, they did not hurry, but went on a lot of side trips, goofed around, and other such things.
    They did know about the Fire Lord, but we do not see him act any actions that have any immediate effect on the present in Season One. In Season Two, he primarily sends Azula after our protagonists. Only in Season Three, does he ever take any real action. He is not the "main villain" for two seasons, he is a distant threat and motivation.

    As for what the video and you said regarding character development: this too is blatantly false.
    The video uses Sokka as it's primary example, saying that is character arc is set up and resolved in one season (the first), and that he only has a singular one. Did you not find it weird that it only talks about a single character?
    Almost every other notable character in AtLA has more, and more complex, character arcs like that, spread over multiple seasons. Aang has to deal with losing his people (introduced in season 1, primarily resolved there), learning to accept being the Avatar (introduced in season 1, spread over all seasons), his attraction to Katara (primarily Season 2 and 3), facing actually having to kill the Fire Lord (Season 3), and many more things.
    And, of course, the video entirely leaves out Zuko - you know, who famously shifts his primary, driving motivation of honour, and what it means to him?
    The only element of that which was set up in season one was that Zuko cared about honour, and wanted to restore it - you could not reasonably think that he would radically alter his notion thereof (arguably discard it) at this point, that was established in later seasons.
    To say that AtLA handles character arcs in such a manner is utterly disingenious.


    Again, do note my comparison to One Piece. That (and many other examples) is how long-form storytelling is done properly, which the video misses entirely.
    RWBY decided to introduce elements like the Maidens, or Penny, or many more of that magnitude, entirely without planning. That does not actually establish mystery, nor does it allow for "dynamic shifts" in the story because there is no actual dynamic to it - that is like claiming that getting randomly thrown about in a hurricane, or by bumber cars, is "dynamic".


    <Voltaire>
    oh, and since you did inquire about why I would sign a post like that:
    as several things do indicate (name, signature, avatar, pronouns), we are Plural, thus more than one person sharing a body (yes, that is a thing IRL, look it up or read the linked thread), so on the occasions where it matters who wrote a specific post on this forum, the post gets signed.
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    I disagree and yes I watched the show, I wonder if you've watched RWBY to be honest.

    Incorrect, "Winter Solstice, Part 2: Avatar Roku" We get informed of Sozen's Comet, they were given an explicit ticking clock as they knew when it would arrive and what it would do.
    That's entirely besides the point, we know who the final villain is, we see flashes of him and his influence on the world, meanwhile Salem was a surprise gut punch reveal for the end of Volume 3.

    No I didn't find it odd.
    Aang's crush on Katara, his ties to his people and struggling with the burden of being Avatar are all introduced in season 1 and run throughout the show, some get resolved in season 1 some don't but they are all laid out clearly within it.
    Ah yes, because one character being a nominal exception means the broad strokes point must be entirely wrong, even though I am pretty sure the video specified most characters rather than all. Though frankly Zuko is a woobie villain whose overarching role is pretty much screamed at us from the moment we meet Zhao so I don't even really agree there either.

    You fail to explain how it misses it so I won't be believing you on that front.
    Incorrect, Penny was introduced earlier than planned but was always meant to be a thing, the Maidens fairytale was thought up between V2 and 3, but we already knew Cinder and Pyrrha were tied together via an autumn theme from V2.

    Mhm, OK.
     
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    Maugan Ra said:
    RWBY, the show, needs to reckon with Salem at some point, she's the ultimate Big Bad, but we're eight volumes in now and not only are we no closer to beating her, nobody actually seems to be working on a possible 'how'. It's all delaying actions and saving who you can and managing last-minute evacuations. It's buying time without any plan on what to use that time on.
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    This feels like a rather deceptive framing. We're eight volume in but Salem has only been a presence at all for 5 of them, we didn't even know she existed until the very end of volume 3. Additionally her immortality too is actually a pretty recent reveal, not coming up until partway through volume 6. From an in-universe perspective it's even more recent since aside from a few weeks during the training montage (where the cast does try to spitball ideas for how to deal with her) the events of volume 6, 8 and the last section of volume 7 were only a couple of days.


    A big part of the point of Salem is that because she's immortal and because there's no easy to discern method to beat her permanently people lose hope and give up even though it's perfectly possible to at least stop her, so it would be kind of contrary to that theme to have the protagonist come up with a plan to beat her in just a few weeks.

    That said it's not like they've only been focused on defense. Putting Amity into the air was a deliberate offensive action aimed at striking back at Salem by undermining her plans. The good guys don't know how to destroy her but they do know that she wants the CCT network and global communications down so that it's easier for her to divide and conquer. Restoring global communications and uniting the world would be a good way to beat her in the here and now at least, which would give them the breathing room they need to formulate a plan for dealing with her for good.


    Matrix Dragon said:
    Well, if someone would stop burning his nation to the ground, maybe the heroes could have enough time to focus on something other then the immediate crisis. Which is what I suspect part of volume 9 will be, actually. RWBY, Jaune and the ice cream murderer are... Somewhere odd. Which may have secrets of the cosmos, it just might be an island. Without an immediate problem, they might just be able to consider the bigger picture.
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    Possibly it's the Shallow Sea described in Fairy Tales of Remnant, which means the cast could run into a literal God. That could be illuminating.

    Alternatively some people have pointed out that the tree looks like an overgrown and much older version of the tree from the God of Light's domain. Finding out what the importance of Life and Death actually is could be a good first step to getting Salem to accept it, which would make her mortal again.


    Ruby also did some good deductive work concenring the Hound, Silver Eyes and Salem's motivation regarding them. If she has more time to think she might realize that there is a strong possibility that Salem started killing Silver Eyed Warriors in the first place because their powers are effective against her just as they are against Cinder.


    Squirtodyle said:
    I mean.

    Ultimately, this relies on the idea that Salem is too scared to attack by herself. But why would that be the case?

    She can't be contained, she's immortal and one of the only two people left with Actual No Shit Magic, she's such an outside context problem that the idea of sealing her away has never once been brought up even when there are explicit magical vaults that can only be opened by one of the four Maidens and everything in them is sealed away in a separate dimension when they're shut. She can't be killed, because she's completely immortal and has demonstrated this multiple times as a psychological warfare tactic. What consequence exactly is she afraid of?

    You say that you could trap Salem in a painful state of always being killed if they have enough ammo and weapons and bodies, but ammo and weapons and bodies are finite, and Salem explicitly just lets people go to town on her until they realise she can't be killed and give up. Is it pain that she's too scared of? I doubt it, given that she's willing and able to exploit her immortality in obviously painful ways without any sign it actually affects her. So if it's not pain, not death, and not capture she's afraid of...what is it?

    I think you're falling into the trap of just taking the story at its word. Salem must have some reason for not just building an army and invading, because if she doesn't then she would clearly have done it already and would clearly have no reason to have people working to soften up the kingdoms. That's a reasonable assumption to make, except the story makes it clear that any given consequence she could suffer is at best a temporary setback. The Relics can't be destroyed, only hidden, and Salem actively wants to die. At the absolute worst, if her attack fails, the best thing that the heroes can do is just...take the Relic and hide it somewhere, which is also temporary.

    The story never provides a single alternative in the practical sense, including an alternative like you've suggested, and furthermore that alternative wouldn't actually work. Eventually, someone will fire the last bullet, and Salem will still be there and still get up and just continue on like nothing happened. Because if she can't be killed, contained, or made submit through effectively torture, and the best thing you can do is temporarily hide the stuff she wants from her, you've written yourself into a corner that will inevitably result in people looking at any alternative and saying "uhhhhh okay this sucks but no one else has offered anything so?"

    As an aside, I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that Salem can't breed a bunch of super Grimm without the Kingdom being softened up first when the argument against Ironwood's plan is that Salem would eventually create spacefaring Grimm that could attack Atlas anyway, and when Salem's unending tide of Grimm only stopped because of a hitherto-unmentioned superweapon that Ozpin had but didn't use when he was, for example, fighting Cinder. The bomb was always a shot in the dark and might not have worked, and if it hadn't...it'd still have been an unending tide of Grimm pouring into Atlas. Why isn't it an option, if Salem can attack the most technologically advanced nation on the planet which still has a huge standing army and be winning until Oscar blows it up with a secret weapon he can't use again?
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    I mean it's as Maugan Ra said in the argument that sparked all this. The way to defeat an immortal is to seal them. There are currently a lot of methods that could potentially seal Salem away for hundreds of years / infinity. But all those methods require her to be significantly exposed in a way that she simply has not allowed herself to be.


    We know she targets Silver Eyed Warriors for example. The odds of this being purely because they counter her Grimm are slim to none. We saw her take that dunk in the Pool of Grimm, there is every reason to believe she is vulnerable to Silver Eyes. And we've seen that Silver Eyes can petrify and seal Grimm away for long periods of time if they're charged up strongly enough. I would not be surprised in the slightest if Salem can be sealed away in a similar manner, and probably has been at some time in history before she eventually broke free like the Leviathan. It would perfectly explain why she's been so obsessed with taking Silver Eyed Warriors out of play for so long and why she always uses proxies to do so.


    Alternatively one of the suggestions for beating her has been to just shut her inside one of the Vaults. If she could use her own magic to open the Vaults she wouldn't need the Maidens, so IF she could be taken into a Vault and left there while a Maiden closes it then she should be well and truly stuck for the rest of time or until she accepts the importance of life and death. The problem with that approach is that it's essentially impossible to actually do that when she's playing the mastermind and general who alwasy stays in the back and has a metric fuckton of Grimm between herself and her enemies. However if she tried to actually YOLO all the Kingdoms combined then the combination of top class Huntsmen, Ozpin, the militaries of the world and the Maidens ganging up on her actually could restrain her long enough to chuck her into one of the Vaults and then sealing her inside.



    The Staff of Creation and possibly the Sword of Destruction are other options that are possible but too impractical and risky to use when she's being careful but very viable if she's reckless. For example if Salem rushes onto a battlefield and gets dogpiled by enemies then just have a Maiden or Ice Dust user freeze her into a statue like Cinder did to Raven and then ask Ambririous to replicate that effect x10 000 forever like he did with Atlas and it's gravity Dust. That way she's stuck basically forever. But when Salem is hiding herself in the shadows so thoroughly that most people don't even know for sure she exists or when she's hidden away inside a giant whale behind legions upon legions of Grimm then meeting the "explain to Ambrosious how things work" requirement would be near impossible to meet when it comes to actually targeting Salem.


    Heck the freezing her into a block of ice thing could potentially be replicated with Dust based technology. Stuff her into a cryo pod or something and as long as you keep refuelling the thing with Dust then she should be sealed forever. But again, so impractical as to be essentially impossible to achieve when she's staying in the shadows.



    And there are a lot of Semblances that could potentially take her out if she exposed herself to them. Jax for example has a mind control Semblance, if she doesn't have immunity to that then he could solo her if she actually gave him a chance to use it on her. Fiona could maybe seal her away too, or someone with a similar Semblance that's more focused on sealing/binding than being used as storage. Opal in Kuchinashi has a Semblance that can mess with people's brain chemistry, Yatsuhashi can erase memories, etc. Get someone with a Sleep ability to tag her and then have them regularly topped up with Aura from buffers like Jaune or Gillian to ensure that they can keep it up. Or get multiple people with sleep/paralyzis abilities to work in shifts. Or have Gillian constantly drain her Aura and then when she needs to rest have her Supercharge other Huntsmen with Salem's stolen Aura to be strong enough to keep her in check until Gillian is rested enough to take over a new shift.


    And then there's the possibility that Ozpin could place some kind of Sealing spell on Salem if she's immobilized near him for long enough. Or as mentioned earlier, Silver Eyed Warriors petrifying her. Point is there's plenty that could be done but which simply isn't feasible so long as Salem keeps playing it safe and being careful.

    Like Voldemort or Sauron her immortality is an issue but would not be nearly as big of one if she was a reckless idiot who just charged her enemies head on instead of undermining them from the shadows until they're weak enough to be overwhelmed or subverted.
     
    So, @Zam , fun fact:
    RWBY has a run time of 28 hours, 23 minutes, according to their wiki, as of Season 8.
    Avatar: The Last Airbender has a total runtime of 1464 minutes, or 24 hours and 24 minutes.
    They are, as of right now, of comparable length. Even assuming that RWBY adds another 30% more content (4 more seasons), it would only go to 7-8 more hours. If you go quite generous, and assume each of those 4 seasons is the length of the last one (about 4.5 hours, a generous assumption), it would be 18 hours - but even then, you are not talking hugely disparate lengths that make AtLA very short compared to RWBY.

    <Voltaire>
     
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    &era System said:
    So, @Zam , fun fact:
    RWBY has a run time of 28 hours, 23 minutes, according to their wiki, as of Season 8.
    Avatar: The Last Airbender has a total runtime of 1464 minutes, or 24 hours and 24 minutes.
    They are, as of right now, of comparable length. Even assuming that RWBY adds another 30% more content (4 more seasons), it would only go to 7-8 more hours. If you go quite generous, and assume each of those 4 seasons is the length of the last one (about 4.5 hours, a generous assumption), it would be 18 hours - but even then, you are not talking hugely disparate lengths that make AtLA very short compared to RWBY.

    <Voltaire>
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    So are we just forgetting about Sozen's Comet being in season one and the character arcs discourse?

    Anyway we literally don't know how long RWBY will shake out to being but yes I was about of about how long RWBY was as I went t compare it to She-Ra. Amazingly, long form storytelling isn't limited exclusively to run time but also ties into structure, as was outlined in the video and in my own posts on the subject.


    Whatever the case its late were I am and continuing to engage people I've scarcely (If ever) seen on this thread before in circular arguments about the show is proving more annoying than intellectually stimulating so I'm post this actually interesting thing and probably head to bed:

    A call back to V3 with Neo:
     
    I'll say it before, and I will keep saying it, I fully believe Salem (and The God Bros.) will be stopped with words and actions, not an uber weapon/mcguffin.
    The ultimate victory of Ruby, RWBY, and Humanity, will not be through a physical means.
    Will RWBY and Co. literally throw down with Salem by the end? Yes. Will it be how they ultimately stop her? Not a chance.
    The way Salem will be stopped is they fulfil the requirement of her Curse. To learn "the meaning" of life and death.

    Yang - In an act to try and find Raven so that her family could have a mother again she nearly got herself and Ruby killed by Grimm.

    Jaune - In his rage to enact a measure of revenge on Cinder he charged blindly at her and nearly got himself and Weiss killed.

    Both have learned and grown from their mistakes and have moved forward while also not completely forgetting their loses.

    The reason why none of the heroes have hit upon an "answer" yet is because this is usually the kind of thing where the characters DON'T hit upon it until the end.

    To spoil Go! Princess Precure
    The first Cure is Cure Flora, the first Enemy General is Close/Crows/Kurosu. The entire show they basically have a rivalry going. At one point Flora and her friends manage manage to destroy Close and they think he's gone for good. A while later he returns in a big way by enacting a scheme that makes Flora lose heart and confidence in her dream of becoming a Princess, thus making her lose her powers. However with some self reflection and a reminder in the form of a personal item she reaffirms her dream, regains her power, and proceeds to kick all kinds of ass. Later the final battle with the big bad Dysdark (who is the embodiment of Despair) arrives, even absorbing Close into herself. The girls get their big power up they had been building to all series and together defeat her. However Close bursts out and now holds all of Dysdark's power and is now Dysdark himself. He kicks them around and Flora has the bright idea of going to him alone to talk. Close is amused by this and encloses them both in a private arena. They go at it and he is winning. He reveals that he is now immortal thanks to the power of Dysdark, saying that as long as Hope lives on, Despair will be there for eternity. Basically trying to hammer home that she has no hope of winning. Flora starts to fall into despair as she mentally starts to think about "What is despair..." and then in a wordless montage she thinks back to the adventures and shenanigans she was apart of over the course of the previous year. All the hard times, all the times things did not go as planned and when people were thinking about giving up on their dreams, but then she thinks about all the good times, the people they helped, and the dreams they saved, and it hits her. Hope and Despair are 2 sides of the same coin. There will always be hard times and struggles, but there will also be good times and successes. As long as Despair continues, there will be Hope right behind it. Close tries to fight back in a rage to make her shut up, but she manages to stop him even without using a finishing attack. Flora tells him that both happy things and bad things are what make dreams, thus making them eternal as well. Close sighs and admits his defeat, for now, and the bid each other Adieu as he flies away and vanishes, thus ending the year long struggle against the forces of Dysdark.




    So in short, even if Ruby and friends have no idea how to put a stop on Salem for good, they know that she can be fought against.
    Salem's immortality does not hurt the show, but instead forces a different means to an end.
     
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    Pugman said:
    I'll say it before, and I will keep saying it, I fully believe Salem (and The God Bros.) will be stopped with words and actions, not an uber weapon/mcguffin.
    The ultimate victory of Ruby, RWBY, and Humanity, will not be through a physical means.
    Will RWBY and Co. literally throw down with Salem by the end? Yes. Will it be how they ultimately stop her? Not a chance.
    The way Salem will be stopped is they fulfil the requirement of her Curse. To learn "the meaning" of life and death.
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    Fully agreed. We got told the show's big theme from the very first episode: There will be no victory in strength. It definitely helps our heroes protect themselves and others (this is an anime action show), but it won't fully win the day. And Salem is aware of this - she can't rely on having a big stick all the time because it fails when someone with a bigger stick shows up, or when you misapply that strength.

    Cinder was at her most successful in Beacon, when, in her own words, she didn't overpower her enemies - she took away what power they already had - subsequently, she was at her least successful when relying on the Maiden power, and thinking she can now take what she wants purely by force.

    On the other side of things, Ironwood overrelied on strength to the point of abandoning everything else, and he overwhelmingly lost.
     
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    So just a quick question.
    Did any of you ever catch the meaning of Clover's last name?

    His last name being "Ebi". As in "Ebisu". As in one of the 7 Japanese Kami of Luck/Good Fortune. Depicted as a FISHERMAN!



    EDIT:
    GUYS! GUYS!!!
    We have a summary for RWBY/Justice League #9 - and I think I have an idea now of what is going on
    "After being saved by the mysterious emerald warrior, Jessica Cruz, the group starts to connect the dots between what's going on around Remnant, and learns the name of the creature behind everything!"
    Guys...if it's a "Creature" controlling people and it's being revealed with with a Green Lantern.....then it is most likely STARRO! :o
     
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    So, I'm thinking that Volume 9 will have two major things. One, a chance for the girls and Jaune to decompress after all the horror and stress they've been through. And second, the chance to stop bouncing from crisis to crisis and actually start planning long term. The end of volume 3 had RNJR set out with that as their goal, investigating Cinders Haven Academy ties. Since V5 though, they've been stuck in dealing with short term problems, mostly because OH MY GOD EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE JAMES PUT THAT BOMB DOWN OKAY CIVILIANS TO EVACUATE WORLD TO WARN WHERE'S THE RELIC WHAT DO YOU MEAN SALEM HAS IT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE WHALE?!
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Since V5 though, they've been stuck in dealing with short term problems, mostly because OH MY GOD EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE JAMES PUT THAT BOMB DOWN OKAY CIVILIANS TO EVACUATE WORLD TO WARN WHERE'S THE RELIC WHAT DO YOU MEAN SALEM HAS IT WHAT HAPPENED TO THE WHALE?!
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    Didn't realize Ironwood had the bomb since Volume 5.

    Volume 5 just had them sit on a couch and wait for the plot to literally call them up. Other than that, they were just following Ozpin's orders, even when they find a reason to disregard them.
     
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    Psyga315 said:
    Didn't realize Ironwood had the bomb since Volume 5.

    Volume 5 just had them sit on a couch and wait for the plot to literally call them up. Other than that, they were just following Ozpin's orders, even when they find a reason to disregard them.
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    I was making a comedic exaggeration in regards to the last volume, which was days of them having little time to react outside of the current crisis.

    Volume 5 had the various other people meet up with RNJR, and RNJR was under the impression an ally of theirs who knew what he was doing was preparing for them to make contact with Ravens tribe. So they used the down time to train and prepare. That's not waiting for the plot to call, that's actually reasonable behavior.
     
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