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- Europe
I still don't know what lies.
....And just for the record we both voted for that plan, I was there
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
I still don't know what lies.
....And just for the record we both voted for that plan, I was there
I'm thinking of voting for this.
Is there a reason we don't outright ask the rats for help/council on getting Conjura to the conclave?
Also, do you intend to the oath section to include the newer points the thread made? (we gave termination notice, which our culture considers the good faith way to end such an agreement. also, hazo never swore anything, and this change of policy happened when he took over the clan from Jirya. Ect.)
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This is the kind of thing where "now we know." Should've gone with one of those limited-but-repeatable-and-expected-to-be-repeated deals, like the BBC's royal charters and stuff. Going forward, we should do that.
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- UK
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Welcome! I hope you enjoy your time here. Help yourself to some treason; it's on the house.
It is fine for Hazou to discuss the particulars of the skytower deal with the rats.
The Gōketsu had agreed to a contract with the Pangolin Clan. Hazō unilaterally elected to break that contract in his capacity as leader of the Gōketsu.
Yes, it was the understanding of everyone in-character that the contract would continue until it was ended by mutual consent (possibly due to both parties preferring a differently negotiated agreement). Neither party could exit the deal unilaterally, as the Gōketsu would no more want to lose their cash-supply at a critical moment than would the Pangolins want to lose the lynchpin of their war strategy. This is why this was a plot point, and why Kei cautioned Hazō:
Kagome has Pangolin Flash, and Mari has Exploring Tongue.
Separately, some players have mentioned that the Pangolins misled Kei into thinking they would use skytowers solely defensively. Does anyone know when this happened?
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- Book Fort
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Of course she does
Not off the top of my head (I wasn't here when it happened), but FWIW, that was my impression on my first read through. I remember being annoyed that the Pangolins invaded the Condors under (what seemed to be) the "preemptive self-defense" excuse.
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- USA
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Welcome! Lovely to have you. How did you find us?
Do you mean fabric placed over the statue or clothes modeled in the stone as part of the statue? Because the latter is pretty common.
Note that when you sold skywalkers (as opposed to skytowers) to Leaf what you actually got was:
- For the first time ever, missing-nin were allowed to be repatriated
- A new clan was formed for you
- That clan was a Voting Clan, unlike the supermajority of clans in Leaf
- Other stuff that I'm not thinking of at the moment
The former
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- Europe
I was responding to this part:
We could just have bought everything we need.
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I don't understand your response here, what are you trying to say? "We could have bought everything we need" like justu, a place to live, what?
My point was that a contract with no exit clause is fucking stupid. Since lots of times shit happens and you don't want to be locked in until the literal heat death of the universe. Which is what appears to be the case here and I would expect it our sanity-checkers (not to mention elders) to notice.
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We had already sold skytowers to Leaf.
So my point was that if Jiraiya and Kagome had died we could have bought the 5 Barrier seals without any problems (including any kind of secrecy concerns) from Leaf.
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Oh I get it, I hadn't seen Ipsos Custodes post and just answered what we got out of the "Pangolin deal" plus that we could have continued to supply the Pangolin.
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I doubt this. 90 skytowers is (450 elements = 37.5 hours scribe time) ~25% of the total output of a sealmaster for an entire month. There is probably not that much slack in the Skytower market. It would be difficult to source the seals month after month. Especially if there was a war going on (which did happen).
It's not impossible, but it would have been an albatross around the neck of the clan. Ie. A bad trade deal.
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!!!!! What drugs was Panda on, who is this duck clan and why have they never been mentioned since?
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- USA
How are you calculating 25%? At ~9 hour days (3 clone blocks, equivalent to a sealing research day), this would be around 4 days of work. Is the average sealmaster taking around half the month off?
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Tbh Genda did kinda make it seem that way
(or was it Shinji?)
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- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
If we ignore that the decision came from voters across time and space then there's also the fact that Hazō was a young-ish teen.
That's not quite how it went though. From the same scene we have:
One can say that Hazō should have waited with the unilateral cancellation until after getting an actual answer regarding Pangolin contract norms. But at the time he clearly thought that what he did was ending an agreement in good faith. He didn't break any oaths he thought he took.
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The Gōketsu clan, led by Jiraiya, agreed to the contract with the understanding that it would last until ended by mutual consent. There was no fixed termination date. Hazō broke that contract.
If it seems better to have it terminable at any point, consider if the Gōketsu had engaged in expensive deals with large collateral costs for backing out (e.g. supplying raw gold to Hyūga goldsmiths), and had planned combat missions for Kei using the skills of her tessera, only for the Pangolins to say: "Hey, we finished conquering Hyena so we don't need skytowers anymore. We're not going to send you any more gold and her pangolins won't answer her summons. She's behind enemy lines in Lightning Country? You staked your house on a trade you won't be able to complete? Wow, that sounds like poor planning on your part."
It's been stated by EJ in the past that you generally only get 40 hours of scribing time in a week. That's dawn till dusk churning out blank after blank. EDIT: For a workday, that is. They take days off. Seal scribing is light duty compared to most ninja work.
I can dig up the quote later if you want.
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- The Void
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I'm not realizing invested in this but that's very different than the Pangolins paying for an extra month and telling us that the deal will be winding down.
If you're going to make contracts in a culture that places great emphasis on keeping your word, and you don't from the outset plan on breaking your word eventually, then it seems to me like very basic common sense to never agree to anything in perpetuity. Forever is a really long time, and a lot of things can happen in that much time. There are a lot of imaginable reasons (and unimaginable reasons) to eventually wish you weren't locked into that contract, and very few benefits compared to an agreement of limited duration. In retrospect, I'm kind of surprised that the Gōketsu agreeing to a perpetual contract wasn't a red flag for Pantsā (because no sane person should do this unless they're willing to break the contract eventually). Evidently the QMs have different intuitions than I about how a culture that highly values keeping your word, and takes seriously the implications of what one is agreeing to do, would develop.
I think it would be better to have something that either party could terminate at any point—because then the possible downside is bounded—but not ideal. What would make more sense would be a contract with limited duration and/or exit clauses. For instance, the Gōketsu and Pangolins enter into an agreement lasting two years, which either party can terminate with one month notice if they pay a penalty or some other agreed-upon condition (e.g. force majeure, if Seventh Path common law doesn't already have a provision for that) obtains.
(I'll also note that in our world, which places rather less importance on scrupulously keeping one's word, and where it's not all that rare for a person or company to default on their obligations and declare bankruptcy, so downside is already bounded, it's AFAIK pretty rare for companies to agree to perpetual contracts. Limited duration and exit clauses are pretty common, standard practice for this kind of thing I think.)
todo
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- Texas
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Could we please get these seals moved/added to the "List of seals Hazō can make" section of the known seals document? Also Skywalkers, but I can't find the quote for when that happened.
Discord, but Paper mentioned that Yuno and Akane brought home a handful of seals from that one Cloud MW lightning user that Hazō got a look at (and maybe keep as research material?).
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Maybe Jiraiya felt comfy doing it because he was an S-ranker? We saw Orochimaru comfortably threaten our Spider Wife, so presumably S-rankers are a nominal threat to Clan Bosses. And if Jiraiya knew he had the backing (political and militaristic) of the Toads, should the Pangolins cry foul... maybe he would? This was back when Naruto was kidnapped, right? Jiraiya was pretty desperate back then (see: Jiraiya almost killing Hiashi over the Hat).
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