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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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What is the legal status of the Pangolin Scroll in Leaf? Does it belong to the Nara? The Gōketsu? What happens if Kei gets fired as summoner? Is Asuma going to butt his head in and demand the scroll be assigned to someone of his choice?

If they do fire her I kind of just want to keep the scroll and let them go without a summoner, but I don't know if that's politically feasible. Or maybe train Mari to be the Pangolin summoner. They'd have a harder time pushing her around, I hope...
 
acidshill said:
What is the legal status of the Pangolin Scroll in Leaf? Does it belong to the Nara? The Gōketsu? What happens if Kei gets fired as summoner? Is Asuma going to butt his head in and demand the scroll be assigned to someone of his choice?

If they do fire her I kind of just want to keep the scroll and let them go without a summoner, but I don't know if that's politically feasible. Or maybe train Mari to be the Pangolin summoner. They'd have a harder time pushing her around, I hope...
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I can't be bothered to dig up the quote, but Summoning Scrolls are personal property and Kei decides who it goes to. If she's dead, she gets to will it to whoever, if she doesn't have a will that specifies, I imagine Hazou and Shikamaru get to fight over it. Or maybe Shikamaru just gets it.
 
Velorien said:
"On the contrary," Kei said. "Team Uplift was not a legal entity, nor its missing-nin members. Upon being acknowledged by Leaf, we received formal rights to our possessions, at which time ownership of the scroll naturally became mine as it was part of my contract, which Leaf recognised as valid. I have never transferred ownership of the scroll, either to the clan or anyone else, and do not intend to do so. I would prefer not to argue over further legalities, which I suspect I have researched better than you."
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Yeah that sounds right. I don't know what Leaf law says if you die without named heirs. In the US, next of kin get it. But I could see your Clan Head, or your next of kin, or the Tower all being viable options.

I imagine the pressure to give it to someone who can use it is pretty high tho.
 
Hazō and Hana are writing letters offscreen, right? I wonder if, upon hearing about Akane's death, Hana will show up in Leaf to comfort her son? After all, she knows the grief of losing a romantic partner. And who else would do it? Mari? The woman who sold herself into a marriage with Jiraiya the Smut Author? Or maybe Hana would be willing to call a truce for her grieving son?
 
I'm genuinely a bit confused about why Hazou is being seen as an oathbreaker.

Deal one. Simple exchange, nothing ongoing.

Velorien said:
"Mori Keiko," Panteon said when she finished climbing down, "in exchange for ten of your towers, and your word that they will not be offered to any other clan, we are prepared to grant you a new summoning contract."

"And the air dome seals with which I protected myself?"

The pangolins exchanged glances.

"Those will be included in the deal."

Kei gave him a skeptical look. "The towers and the air domes have independent value, and should be assessed independently. In addition to the summoning contract, you will provide me with three pangolin ninjutsu suitable for my use."

Panteon gave her an unreadable look. "The pangolins cannot afford to make excessive sacrifices at a time of war. One ninjutsu."

"The pangolins are always at war," Kei said, trying to keep the amusement out of her voice. "And if I am reading between the lines correctly, the Condor Clan is mobilising, and may even have a summoner at last, in which case it is in your interest to empower your own summoner as much as possible. One ninjutsu, and the contract will be with a ranking military officer."
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Pangolins threatening to cancel the entire summoning contract if they don't get more seals:

eaglejarl said:
"I have received a demand from the Pangolin. They want more of our skytower seals and have stated that if I do not supply them they will renegotiate the details of my contract."
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The deal that was eventually "broken."

1) An upfront payment in the form of three pounds of diamonds
2) 6 pangolin summon contracts
3) 6 jutsu for the clan
4) A monthly trade of 60 pounds of gold for 90 sets of the seals

Regarding (1), we can give them three pounds of diamonds now - with interest to make up for it.

Regarding (2), weren't these contracts ended with the deal? So it's moot.

Regarding (3), did we ever actually get all 6? But fine, this is one thing we got that they can't really return (though we are still keeping with the no-trading/sharing/modifying parts of the deal).

Regarding (4), that's a monthly trade, we never said it would go on forever, and if the Pangolins ever said they didn't need the seals anymore I don't think we would have been surprised for them to stop paying. No one reasonably understood this to be a gold for seals trade that was obligated for perpetuity. What, they'd have to start stockpiling the seals by the thousands and keep giving us gold if they weren't using them regularly?

Besides for the jutsu (and the diamonds we can give them right now) it's not like the Goketsu even got a major benefit that wasn't mutual and contingent on the ongoing trade being ongoing.

And the only reason this negotiation even happened was under the duress of Kei being threatened with the termination of the entire summoning contract!

Why aren't we giving the whole story to explain that they're not oathbreakers?

eaglejarl said:
"So," Keiko said carefully, "the upfront payment will be three pounds of diamonds, the full-time availability of Pankurashun and five elite pangolin of my choice, plus the training jutsu for each member of Gōketsu and five other jutsu of our choice. After that, we agree to a monthly payment of sixty pounds of gold in exchange for ninety of the Pantokrator's Judging Eyes." She paused, considering, then nodded. "My clan leader will probably be angry with me for doing such a poor job of bargaining but I suspect he'll accept the deal rather than shaming me by forcing me to go back on my word with such an important ally as the Pangolin Clan."

Pantsā snorted but took no other notice of her addition to the upfront cost. "I shall ensure that the diamonds are all of good quality," he said magnanimously. "You, however, will acknowledge the terms of our jutsu training, since it seems to have been left out of your statement of the bargain." He paused, then leaned in slightly. "You will ensure that our jutsu are kept secret, Summoner. Nor will you attempt to study or modify them." His tone had shifted from the nearly playful one he'd had while bargaining, a note of warning hanging just barely out of sight behind the words. A shiver ran down Kei's spine on icy feet.

"Yes, Pantsā," she said, trying and failing to keep her voice from squeaking at the implied threat. "I will. We will. Keep the Pangolin jutsu secret, that is. And not study or modify them."

"Excellent," the lord of the Pangolin Clan said, a smile back in his voice. "Then I believe we have a bargain. Someone is on the way with the diamonds right now. We will expect delivery of ninety Pantokrator's Judging Eyes within three days, with ninety more to follow every thirty days thereafter. A pleasure doing business with you, Summoner." He gave her a nod that was both polite and also very clearly a dismissal.
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So... @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped I'm not clear on, you know, OPSEC-stuff because I don't live in setting. Would mentioning the aforementioned (by Ipsos above) terms of the deal in broad terms like "In exchange for an upfront payment of seals, they gave us diamonds, techniques, and Kei contracts. On a continuing basis, they asked for a monthly trade of seals for gold. They then decided that they needed more seals, which I found strange" without it being considered a massive breach of OPSEC or whatnot?
 
Hi everybody! Nice quest you got there, mind if I join you?

AntiSanity said:
I'm not sure we can be "sufficiently honest" when we just lied to free a condor. We clearly showed dishonesty to serve our own purposes just now. They seem to place a good amount of value on absolutes while we take new information into account.

I'm starting to think we should leave Enma to convince the rats with facts rather than introducing them to our more mercurial thinking.
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Perhaps we can emphasize the difference of social norms in the Human Path vs Animal Path, with the result being that humans assign more weight to motivations behind behaviours than just straight-up honesty? If they can accept that, then it makes sense for them to understand our values/motivations and predict areas where cooperation will be fraught. We want them to trust us enough on some issues, not as a principle.

RandomOTP said:
Hazō and Hana are writing letters offscreen, right? I wonder if, upon hearing about Akane's death, Hana will show up in Leaf to comfort her son? After all, she knows the grief of losing a romantic partner. And who else would do it? Mari? The woman who sold herself into a marriage with Jiraiya the Smut Author? Or maybe Hana would be willing to call a truce for her grieving son?
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I am hoping that they are (Hana is best mama), but I haven't noticed any hint of that in my MfD binge. We could go and see Ino? Though if you want someone with more experience of mourning the dead, I don't think Mari particularly fit the ticket (she's stopped being the Heartbreaker too recently). It's in those situations where I wish we were closer to our civilians. One of ours could have been a good candidate for this.
 
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[X][Conclave] Pangolin Propaganda Opposed
  • Continue dinner with rats
  • Remorsefully say at the end that you regret not knowing that trade deals on the 7th Path are perpetual, you know to be more careful now.
  • Rats will probably ask what you mean.
  • Clarify that is why they consider Hazou to be an Oathbreaker, that the deal of trading gold for seals was monthly and that he ended it, he didn't know it was a 7th Path expectation that deals like that are perpetual unless stated otherwise. It is rude to cancel monthly trade deals on the Human Path without warning, but not considered dishonest or a breach of an oath unless explicitly agreed to be perpetual.
  • Ask them where they heard about any other sort of deal with the Pangolins - have the Pangolins been spreading a different story?
  • Unless this is a terrible error that the rest of the 7th Path considers to be obvious and the core of Oathbreaking, relay this information to the other delegates in the guise of making/discussing trade deals and explaining how you've learned the need to specify deals are not indefinite, the error with the Pangolins in this way has tarred your reputation because you didn't understand that nuance of 7th Path etiquette but you have learned to be careful.
  • If the Pangolins have been spreading a false story about the deal, lean on Kei/Snowflake to best counter it as the Pangolin Summoner, follow their lead. She was the only one actually present for the deal besides for Pantsaa.
I probably won't be on here enough to edit this regularly, so feel free to take liberally from this.
 
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Ipsos Custodes said:
[X][Conclave] Pangolin Propaganda Opposed
  • Continue dinner with rats
  • Remorsefully say at the end that you regret not knowing that trade deals on the 7th Path are perpetual, you know to be more careful now.
  • Rats will probably ask what you mean.
  • Clarify that is why they consider Hazou to be an Oathbreaker, that the deal of trading gold for seals was monthly and that he ended it, he didn't know it was a 7th Path expectation that deals like that are perpetual unless stated otherwise. It is rude to cancel monthly trade deals on the Human Path without warning, but not considered dishonest or a breach of an oath unless explicitly agreed to be perpetual.
  • Ask them where they heard about any other sort of deal with the Pangolins - have the Pangolins been spreading a different story?
  • Unless this is a terrible error that the rest of the 7th Path considers to be obvious and the core of Oathbreaking, relay this information to the other delegates in the guise of making/discussing trade deals and explaining how you've learned the need to specify deals are not indefinite, the error with the Pangolins in this way has tarred your reputation because you didn't understand that nuance of 7th Path etiquette but you have learned to be careful.
  • If the Pangolins have been spreading a false story about the deal, lean on Kei/Snowflake to best counter it as the Pangolin Summoner, follow their lead. She was the only one actually present for the deal besides for Pantsaa.
I probably won't be on here enough to edit this regularly, so feel free to take liberally from this.
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I think this is the wrong approach to take tbh. I think we should tell them that the Pangolins made the deal with Hazou under false pretenses - they told him they were defending themselves and he canceled the deal once he realized they were using it to conquer others.
 
faflec said:
When is voting for the next Conclave plan over?
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Paperclipped said:
For the Saturday vote close deadline (1pm Eastern), please write a plan with the [Conclave] tag. For example:
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Cariyaga said:
So... @eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped I'm not clear on, you know, OPSEC-stuff because I don't live in setting. Would mentioning the aforementioned (by Ipsos above) terms of the deal in broad terms like "In exchange for an upfront payment of seals, they gave us diamonds, techniques, and Kei contracts. On a continuing basis, they asked for a monthly trade of seals for gold. They then decided that they needed more seals, which I found strange" without it being considered a massive breach of OPSEC or whatnot?
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I'm not sure what you're asking here. Would it be a breach of OPSEC for Hazou to explain the details of the Pangolin trade to who, exactly?
 
Welcome!

Nebulus said:
Perhaps we can emphasize the difference of social norms in the Human Path vs Animal Path, with the result being that humans assign more weight to motivations behind behaviours than just straight-up honesty? If they can accept that, then it makes sense for them to understand our values/motivations and predict areas where cooperation will be fraught. We want them to trust us enough on some issues, not as a principle.
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I fear that successfully convincing them of the different societal norms will just lead them to the conclusion that humans are too mercurial to trust in the long term at all. They do appear to value absolutes after all.

I think it's not worth the gamble when we will have Enma just around the corner to vouch for this issue, bypassing the perception of human social norms entirely.

Plus, they seem to want to wait and see. They did just end that line of conversation. Continuing on that line may be rude.
 
Shrooms said:
I think this is the wrong approach to take tbh. I think we should tell them that the Pangolins made the deal with Hazou under false pretenses - they told him they were defending themselves and he canceled the deal once he realized they were using it to conquer others.
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That's still breaking the deal.

I just think it's Pangolin propaganda the more I think about it, or at worst that they had expectations and made assumptions that weren't true and now they're upset - like the toads told Noburi, that clans usually grow slowly rather than being a bunch of adoptions. They feel like they were played and are probably falsely/misleadingly describing the deal.

From what the Rats just told us, if he's not an Oathbreaker then he's presumptively credible if he gives his word, and that can make all the difference. If they know what the deal actually was and that they have been mislead then Hazou hasn't done anything wrong in their eyes.
 
Did Hazō (or Kagome, for that matter), himself, ever agree to supply the Pangolins with seals in perpetuity? Breaking his own word is not nearly the same thing as breaking Jiraya's word, when Jiraya made a stupid agreement.
 
acidshill said:
Did Hazō (or Kagome, for that matter), himself, ever agree to supply the Pangolins with seals in perpetuity? Breaking his own word is not nearly the same thing as breaking Jiraya's word, when Jiraya made a stupid agreement.
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Hazou took the blame to avoid Kei having the Pangolins remove her as summoner, that way it was his fault for not supplying the seals rather than her.

He *really* didn't break the deal, but in the fictional (super-fictional?) world where he purportedly ordered Kei to stop the deal he also didn't break any agreement to keep doing it forever.
 
This is giving up the XP bonus but for a one-day plan it seems worth it.

[X][Conclave] Clear Communication
Word count: <400
  • Sanity check/optimize with Mari/Kei.
  • Rats
    • Meet again.
    • Offer a copy of Nara writings on game theory if the Rats are interested.
    • Explain CCnJ.
    • CCnJ:
      • You accept culpability for the Pangolin genocide.
        • At the time, the Pangolins committing genocide was beyond your imagining.
        • Your chief failure was not asking enough questions.
        • You have since re-calibrated and will not make the same class of mistake again.
      • Given the choice between continuing to enable genocide and breaking an oath, you broke your oath. You did so with consideration - a month's seals - but the probable harm done by continuing indefinitely was, frankly, worth your honour.
        • The Pangolins would not have stopped with the Condors.
      • The deal was not made in good faith.
        • The Pangolins offered you jutsu, contracts, and money. They received utter military dominance.
        • Bargaining is inherently competitive but the Pangolins took advantage of Kei's inexperience and your lack of context to a degree incompatible with cooperation.
      • You have two questions: you're asking to better understand the Rats and the Seventh Path.
        • What would a Rat do if they realized they had sworn to violate their deepest-held morals? What do the Rats value above their word?
        • What would a Rat do if they agreed to a deal they later realized they didn't fully understand?
      • Presently, you want a relationship with the Rats which allows you to cooperate towards shared goals: Condor freedom and the end of the Dragon threat.
        • Explain our hope for the Condors: you can set the stage for Conjura to demand the freedom of her people for her contributions. Backed by the other bosses, the Condors can find a new homeland in Archeopteryx territory.
        • You can't work together optimally: the Rats can't trust your word.
        • Contingent on providing sufficient evidence of the Dragons, what do they need from you to have a relationship sufficient for these purposes?
      • You have a contract with ourselves you will not violate - protect your loved ones and comrades, and preserve life. Our actions spring from our devotion to that contract, above all else.
      • You admire the Rats and hope that one day, the Human Path resembles theirs.
  • Debrief with Enma, Ma and Pa. Should you pursue the Rats further? Are your efforts better spent elsewhere?
  • What the hell happened to Convei? Get her to the Conclave immediately.
  • (Background/offscreen) Ask Kabuto/Asuma about borrowing Dragon parts for Conclave purposes.
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

What were the terms for the duration of the Pangolin Trade Deal?

And, what, if anything, did 'Hazou' break his word about when Kei decided to stop supplying them with skytowers?

Why I'm asking. Some members of the thread think that the jutsu and contracts were paid for by the first month of skytowers, and that further months were strictly skytower for gold arrangements. In that case, ending the supply is not so bad. Everything has been paid for already. Presumably we gave back any gold that we were paid in advance for.

On the other hand, the jutsu and contracts could have locked us into a perpetual arrangement where we were obligated to send skytowers to the Pangolins every month in exchange for gold, forever, with no exit clause. That's my current understanding. Is that correct?
 
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