[X] Interlude so we have more time to finalize the optimized chakra budget

Do you want to skip the Force Dome? Our options regarding the Force Dome are

1) Infuse it underground
2) Infuse it above ground

I think it's vastly less likely Sasori has anti-Collapse countermeasures out to the km distance from the Rift, than Hazou gets picked up by a patrol trying to do this above ground.

Oh, that's much farther away from the Rift than I understood, my bad. This should be fine, yes.

As important as the Force Dome is, I would rather skip it than have too much risks of the enemy having forewarning and activating jutsu and/or spreading out before the RERs can hit. But you're right that the risk should be very low underground and that far away. And if for some well-known-to-the-characters reasons it's not, I guess that's the kind of thing our allies would point out.
 
Vote closed New
Scheduled vote count started by eaglejarl on Jan 12, 2025 at 11:24 PM, finished with 259 posts and 23 votes.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Velorien on Jan 15, 2025 at 7:01 AM, finished with 278 posts and 24 votes.


Voting is closed.

In recognition of lack of spoons the will of the people, the next update will be an interlude.

 
Hm. You know, Kei thinks Hazou is dead, suicide by bioseal. Snowflake (many Snowflakes) are about to appear with all the knowledge of the extreme lengths Hazou has been going, lately... right before a big battle that could end in their collective deaths.

Out of the many Snowflakes that appear, what are the odds that all of them resist the urge to confess to Hazou? Someone's gotta roll a -12 on that :V
 
I don't think we're going to win the entire quest anytime soon. I'm assuming that actually finding and rezzing people will be slow and inconvenient, so we probably have several years of "Leaf versus the entire rest of the world" before the infinite essies wincon gets rolling.

It's entirely possible we win today and lose next month !
 
Hm. You know, Kei thinks Hazou is dead, suicide by bioseal. Snowflake (many Snowflakes) are about to appear with all the knowledge of the extreme lengths Hazou has been going, lately... right before a big battle that could end in their collective deaths.

Out of the many Snowflakes that appear, what are the odds that all of them resist the urge to confess to Hazou? Someone's gotta roll a -12 on that :V
Why would Snowflake reveal important information about her blackmail vulnerabilities to Orochimaru ?
 
  • T-17: This is our baseline chakra capacity. Nothing should be happening here.
    • Current chakra: 22000CP
    • Chakra capacity: 22000CP
  • T-16: Kei casts SC, she creates 7 clones for 2.1 kCP capacity costing 325 CP. For a gain of 1.8 kCP.
    • Current chakra: 21685CP
    • Chakra capacity: 24100CP
  • T-15: No action. We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 22508CP
    • Chakra capacity: 24100 CP
  • T-14: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra. Nameless jounin 1 creates 6 SC with a capacity of 2.4 kCP.
    • Current chakra: 23041CP
    • Chakra capacity: 26500CP
  • T-13: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 23874CP
    • Chakra capacity: 26500CP
  • T-12: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 24707CP
    • Chakra capacity: 26500CP
  • T-11: We have refilled to 4.0k/4.5k additional capacity. Nameless jounin 2 creates 6 SC with a capacity of 2.4 kCP.
    • Current chakra: 25240CP
    • Chakra capacity: 28900CP
  • T-10: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 26703CP
    • Chakra capacity: 28900CP
  • T-09: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 26906CP
    • Chakra capacity: 28900CP
  • T-08: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 27739CP
    • Chakra capacity: 28900CP
  • T-07: We have refilled to 6.9k/6.9k additional capacity. Nameless jounin 1 dismisses his clones at 42 clone hours accrued. Nameless jounin 3 creates 6 SC with a capacity of 2.4 kCP to replace nameless jounin 1. Kurenai creates 3 clones for 1.8k additional capacity.
    • Current chakra: 28047CP
    • Chakra capacity: 30700CP
  • T-06: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 28880CP
    • Chakra capacity: 30700CP
  • T-05: We have refilled to 8.1k/8.7k. Hazou begins ESing his runes. This means that there are now 9 Hazouclones and 3.2k additional capacity. Kei gives him all of her chakra and dismisses her clones, 77 total clone hours accrued, losing 2.1k capacity.
    • Current chakra: 29338CP
    • Chakra capacity: 32110CP
  • T-04: We have refilled to 8.5k/9.8k. Nameless jounin 2 has accrued 42 clone hours so Orochimaru creates his 5 of his clones, generating 4.5k capacity. Nameless jounin dismisses his clones, losing 2.4k capacity.
    • Current chakra: 29896CP
    • Chakra capacity: 34210CP
  • T-03: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 30729CP
    • Chakra capacity: 34210CP
  • T-02: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 31562CP
    • Chakra capacity: 34210CP
  • T-01: We have refilled 833CP worth of chakra.
    • Current chakra: 32395CP
    • Chakra capacity: 34210CP
  • T-00: We have refilled to 11.5k/11.9k. Time to begin mass summons and spend the remainder of our chakra. Nameless jounin 3 has accrued 42 clone hours.
    • Current chakra: 33228CP
    • Chakra capacity: 34210CP
@Sir Stompy Re-typed out the math done here, by the hour; I'm just short of the calculations you projected (by about 272CP). I think your regeneration is slightly ahead of your stated estimate for chakra regeneration (stated: 833CP), but your individual calculations project differences in hourly chakra regenration based on the step you're on. Could you confirm?
 
Let's deal with the elephant in the room, which is that there are two reasons this topic is coming up: first, because people are worried about the Akatsuki "suddenly" having anti-SC / anti-summon technology and second because there is a sense that Hazō should have had access to these things all this time, either in Jiraiya's hoard or through general access to Leaf's tech.
I agree that the proposed countermeasure as described is something that's reasonable for the Akatsuki to have. That said, I would argue that from the playerbase's previous epistemic position, it was eminently reasonable to assume that the Akatsuki are going to be given a setting-changing seal "array" that could create a runic-tier effect capable of instantly dispelling all summons on a wide are.

This was, after all, what was initially suggested that they did:
(Major point) Akatsuki knew that they were likely to face off against summons and prepared countermeasures. The Nagi Island report states: "Although the Leaf contingent had a large number of summons with them, when they reached the battlefield all of the summons popped at a specific point, as though they had run into a brick wall. Jiraiya was able to quickly re-summon Ma and Pa but no other summoner was able to duplicate the feat." Hazō doesn't know for certain how this was done, but since he is one of the few people who know that summons' chakra envelopes are made of nature chakra he can infer that Akatsuki invented a seal array that pushes nature chakra from a large area and generates a bubble that prevents it from flowing back in. If Jiraiya had nature chakra in his body then perhaps he was able to use it to re-summon Ma and Pa. Hazō does not know why Jiraiya did not summon Gamabunta in addition to / instead of Ma and Pa. (Note: we normally prefer not to have Hazō do all the deduction work for you; we are offering it in this case as a gesture of good faith and part of our apology.)
This implied that the QMs had a model of seal "arrays" whose capabilities are permitted to be orders of magnitude bigger than those of "normal" seals and multi-element seals; capabilities on par with runes. If this were part of the setting, I argue it would be completely unreasonable for Hazou to never hear about a dramatically powerful seal "array" useful against, say, the Dragons, and to never consider creating a given seal effect using a seal "array".

In addition, if it were implemented as stated in the second quote, it would have read as the Akatsuki being randomly given a setting-changing capability as a hasty last-minute patch to a years-old mistake. If such countermeasures were easily possible, everyone would have had them, or something on their scale. That everyone doesn't have them implies they are not easy to develop: something requiring the focused attention of an S-rank sealmaster over a prolonged period, and/or esoteric knowledge. It's reasonable that the Akatsuki could have it; it's not reasonable that they're given this as a last-minute patch to a years-old mistake. As far as shenanigans go, it'd be on the order of initially modeling Hidan as an essie-on-stats-alone, and then suddenly retconning him to have regenerative immortality because he wasn't supposed to die this chapter.

The second quote implied that you thought both were reasonable: that it was reasonable for seal "arrays" to have such capabilities without Hazou knowing about them, and that it was reasonable to grant the Akatsuki this tier of capability at no charge. (If it were initially presented as "Hazou infers the Akatsuki scattered deals-one-stress seals all over the battlefield", I legitimately expect there would've been much less drama.)

Therefore, it was not unreasonable for the players to expect the QMs to do that. It wasn't a baseless expectation that you'd act in bad faith, it was an expectation that you'd proceed to do what you, in fact, stated that you considered reasonable to do.

Edit: To restate, I have no issues with what's being suggested now. But I do end up having the impression that if the players did not generate enough salt to make it inconvenient, the QMs would have proceeded with the changes which the QMs are now calling it "assuming bad faith" to expect them to implement.
 
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Orochimaru is projected to have more than 2000CP based on this chapter (Orochimaru took all of Noburi's reserves) and the fact that Noburi had 2000CP at the time. It's entirely possible that he has biosealed someone else's chakra onto himself, but even then his and his Shadow Clones' capacity should be at least 2x the projected calculations (900CP).

If we assume Orochimaru's capacity is 2000CP, I think we might be able to save some chakra by dipping into his clone hours (he has currently used 20 clone hours), though I haven't done the math.
 
Orochimaru is projected to have more than 2000CP based on this chapter (Orochimaru took all of Noburi's reserves) and the fact that Noburi had 2000CP at the time. It's entirely possible that he has biosealed someone else's chakra onto himself, but even then his and his Shadow Clones' capacity should be at least 2x the projected calculations (900CP).

If we assume Orochimaru's capacity is 2000CP, I think we might be able to save some chakra by dipping into his clone hours (he has currently used 20 clone hours), though I haven't done the math.
We know his SCs have approx 3x Hazou's reserves (back when Hazou had 300 CP), there's some WoG somewhere, damned if I know where.
 
Yes, but I assume you're looking for something that's efficient at scale.
Actually, I think that we would only need one water clone to make this work, IIRC. Though I'm not at all involved in the planning so don't take my word for it.
That is correct. One Water/Earth clone that Noburi pumps chakra into, I guess by touch? And the regular hourly drain on the group that he does through water/mist. The single elemental clone just casts elemental clone again by pumping all of their chakra into the cast. Preferably done by a low XP individual so that you only spend 15-30 CP on cast, or 90-180 an hour. When it's go time, Noburi can drain it like normal and distribute it via drinking water to the attack group.
 
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