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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Sir Stompy said:
I agree it would be substantial, but it's now slow enough that I don't think we're looking at a nuke-equivalent explosion. Something on the order of a few dozen tons of TNT seems more reasonable.
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I don't know. The thing is that its going to spread exponentially. The process won't strictly be slow - as soon as you impart energy on the ice great enough to vaporize it, its instantly hot. Its actually a fairly close analogue of how high explosives detonate; a small region is triggered, which creates conditions on the boundary that are strong enough to detonate the surrounding material. That material likewise can detonate adjacent material, and so it spreads.

So long as the reaction is fast enough to proceed through all the ice without too much of it exiting the AoE or destroying the rune, I suspect it would be full strength. And it would tend to occur from the outside-in, so the forces involved would tend to force the ice inwards, not outwards. That doesn't mean it'll just implode neatly like the core of a nuke; that takes a lot of precision. But it could be enough that most of it remains in the AoE.
 
eaglejarl said:
Scheduled vote count started by eaglejarl on Feb 27, 2024 at 7:29 AM, finished with 247 posts and 17 votes.
[actionplan] [hazotraining]
  • 16
    34
    [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Callig and Loot
    [X] A Conversation with Uncle Oro
    [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Minimum Callig for RRB unstagnation
    [X] Training Plan (Kei): YOLO
    [X] Armageddon Initiative
    [X] Training Plan (Hazou): We're Taking These With Us
    [X] Action Plan: Cowardice and Ambition
    [X] Action Plan: Octocats and Aunts and Uncles, Oh My!
    [X] Lore Update
    [X] Snowflake Interlude
    [X] Ino Interlude
    [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Callig and Loot
    [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Minimum Callig for RRB unstagnation
    [X] Lore Update
    [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Callig and Loot
    [X] Training Plan (Kei): Things We Were Definitely Going to Level Anyway
    [X] Training Plan (Kei): Things We Were Definitely Going to Level Anyway
    [X] Training Plan (Kei): None
    [X] Training Plan (Kei): YOLO
    [X] Rattling the Snake.
    [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Callig and Loot
    [X] A Conversation with Uncle Oro
  • 3
    [X] [Action Plan] Snuncle Knows Best
  • 4
    [X] [Hazo Training] Skills that matter
    [X] [Hazo Training] None
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Buggy said:
I don't know. The thing is that its going to spread exponentially. The process won't strictly be slow - as soon as you impart energy on the ice great enough to vaporize it, its instantly hot. Its actually a fairly close analogue of how high explosives detonate; a small region is triggered, which creates conditions on the boundary that are strong enough to detonate the surrounding material. That material likewise can detonate adjacent material, and so it spreads.
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It's much closer to how low explosives are triggered. Similar to a deflageration rather than a detonation. Since the energy is propegated by heat instead of a shock wave.
 
Buggy said:
So long as the reaction is fast enough to proceed through all the ice without too much of it exiting the AoE
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Even fragments thrown clear of the rune's AoE could plausibly contribute to the blast. Doesn't take much heating for the nitrogen to boil off, and then you've got liquid oxygen mixed with pulverized grass and trees, waiting for a spark.
 
Sir Stompy said:
It's much closer to how low explosives are triggered. Similar to a deflageration rather than a detonation. Since the energy is propegated by heat instead of a shock wave.
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Good point, low explosives are a better analogy. Still, I think that comes out in our favor. Black powder tends to detonate poorly primarily when it is less dense or loose. That's why they ram the powder into muskets after they pour it, after all. So a gigantic solid lump of detonating 'low explosive' is pretty close to a best-case scenario.
 
Buggy said:
Good point, low explosives are a better analogy. Still, I think that comes out in our favor. Black powder tends to detonate poorly primarily when it is less dense or loose. That's why they ram the powder into muskets after they pour it, after all. So a gigantic solid lump of detonating 'low explosive' is pretty close to a best-case scenario.
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I think black powder is something of a decent analogue actually. The expansion constant is similar from solid to gas, OTOO of 700-800x increase in volume.
 
Crunbum said:
Fair enough. I don't think Air Dome-based solutions are viable in comparison, though. The Ice Cube is extremely tough and its extreme self-repair capability is crucial to its function - any solid barrier may by overcome by powerful attacks - but one that repairs itself and quickly enough to patch up any holes is immensely more useful for that alone.

I'd expect it to be far harder to meaningfully get through than even a runic version of the Jounin-tier Fourfold Violet Barrier seal, which I imagine would already be enough to keep Akatsuki out via sheer durability, so long as it wasn't setup too much power for sheer area.
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I mean something akin to an ablative regenerative air dome shouldn't be impossible either. There's nothing that inherently says that when a layer of (normally physically impossible) superhardened air is broken that that the chakra effect that's hardening said air in a very specific place in the first place should just stop doing its job.

Buggy said:
Okay so, it is slightly ambiguous in the wording of EM.

It is not clear if turning off EM removes the forced temperature manipulation, or forces the surrounding to return to normal temperature and then removes the temperature manipulation.

It is a subtle difference that would be very significant in practice. Merely removing the forced-temperature effect leaves you with a big ball of air-ice sitting on surroundings which are already very cold, so you wouldn't even get a minor vapor explosion or anything. It'd just sit there for hours/days/weeks, slowly sublimating until its gone.

If EM forces the surroundings to return to normal temperatures, you get a explosion. Even if it's gradual, you still pretty much get a explosion because the ice will more-or-less sublimate all at the same time, although different components will do so at different temperatures so maaaaybe you get lucky and get a smaller explosion that shatters the ice and forces it out of the AoE, sparing your the brunt of it.

For a conceptually simple (and thus easy to build) way to make a safe on/off switch, i'd implement a gradient. Turn it on, and over N time the AoE gradually falls in temperature, starting at the center and working outwards. Turn it off, and the reverse happens from the outside-in. This prevents both a destructive start and a destructive stop.
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That still sounds really hard to exit in any practical fashion. I guess you could tunnel out of it through the earth, but that just means that opponents can tunnel in.
Sir Stompy said:
Just looking forward, perhaps 36 minutes before voting closes isn't the best time to post feedback if you want it incorporated into the plan.
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True. Still, if I only notice something that late it seems better to mention it on the off chance that the plan writer sees it than not mentioning it at all.
Buggy said:
So long as the reaction is fast enough to proceed through all the ice without too much of it exiting the AoE or destroying the rune, I suspect it would be full strength.
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A protected inner core remains an important part of the project. If designed correctly then one could use a single Ice Cube rune multiple times (though not in multiple locations).

Which brings me to a much simpler research idea. Is there any reason that explosions caused by explosive seals/runes must have the seal/rune itself be located in the area of effect? Or maybe it is necessary for paper seals due to technobabble reasons, but if we can make an explosive rune that's outside its own blast zone then it might well be repeatable. If nothing else, such a rune might be a good accelerator for an artillery weapon. Or just a weapon that can actually be used against sitting targets despite the immobility of active runes. Just tunnel under the target and infuse the rune underground. Boom squish.
 
My proposal back here Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest involved a rune on the ground projecting a dangerous AoE up into the sky.
Rafin said:
There's nothing that inherently says that when a layer of (normally physically impossible) superhardened air is broken that that the chakra effect that's hardening said air in a very specific place in the first place should just stop doing its job.
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Could be it's holding the air in place by redistributing forces somehow, without quite fully violating conservation of momentum, and breaks when an internal buffering process gets overloaded.
 
Rafin said:
I mean something akin to an ablative regenerative air dome shouldn't be impossible either. There's nothing that inherently says that when a layer of (normally physically impossible) superhardened air is broken that that the chakra effect that's hardening said air in a very specific place in the first place should just stop doing its job.


That still sounds really hard to exit in any practical fashion. I guess you could tunnel out of it through the earth, but that just means that opponents can tunnel in.

True. Still, if I only notice something that late it seems better to mention it on the off chance that the plan writer sees it than not mentioning it at all.

A protected inner core remains an important part of the project. If designed correctly then one could use a single Ice Cube rune multiple times (though not in multiple locations).

Which brings me to a much simpler research idea. Is there any reason that explosions caused by explosive seals/runes must have the seal/rune itself be located in the area of effect? Or maybe it is necessary for paper seals due to technobabble reasons, but if we can make an explosive rune that's outside its own blast zone then it might well be repeatable. If nothing else, such a rune might be a good accelerator for an artillery weapon. Or just a weapon that can actually be used against sitting targets despite the immobility of active runes. Just tunnel under the target and infuse the rune underground. Boom squish.
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Kagome's Directional Explosives seem to have the explosion slightly offset from their seal (because his blast rings don't break every time he uses them right?) so this seems feasible! I wonder if the DE seals themselves are reusable or if he puts new ones in each time.
 
ting said:
Kagome's Directional Explosives seem to have the explosion slightly offset from their seal (because his blast rings don't break every time he uses them right?) so this seems feasible! I wonder if the DE seals themselves are reusable or if he puts new ones in each time.
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They're reactionless, it's a Newton's 3rd law violation. RBs work the same way, it's not really a rocket since rockets are propelled by Newton's 3rd.

It's like standing on a hand grenade and using that to jump better. The explosion is what propels you. The ground experiences no force from the RB
 
Seal (Goo!) Idea Post

Goo Bomb rolls min(maker's Sealing skill, 60) vs Athletics of anyone in range.

Anyone who loses acquires the Aspect "Stuck in Place", preventing Sprint actions and the use of Athletics as a defensive roll for the duration of the scene, for 30 minutes, or until they succeed on a Maneuver with an appropriate skill to remove the Aspect, whichever occurs first.

Goo Grenade
A Goo Bomb variant that only has an area of effect of melee-distance, instead of an entire zone. As a result, it is easier to dodge but is still useful when friendly-fire precludes using Goo Bombs.

Has a TN to dodge of min(Infuser's Sealing, 60) - 5.

Pyrophoric Goo Bomb
A Goo Bomb variant that spews out pyrophoric goo, which will ignite after a round passes or sooner if a Lightning or Fire technique making contact with the goo.

Upon ignition, everyone stuck inside gains the Aspect "Burning Alive" and takes three Energy:Fire stress per round.

Goopocalypse
A Goo Bomb variant that has a larger range, greatly increasing the danger of friendly fire but also making it harder to dodge at close range.

Has a TN to dodge of min(Infuser's Sealing, 60)+10 in the zone of activation, and a TN to dodge of min(Infuser's Sealing, 60)-10 in adjacent zones.

Goo Mine
A Goopocalypse variant designed as a pre-prepared trap. This seal is inactive by default, but can be 'armed' for a duration of 24 hours by pulsing chakra into it. The ninja setting the trap has a few minutes after sending the chakra pulse before the seal arms, after which any movement within melee range of the seal will set it off until the seal disarms the next day. This seal is immobile.

Runic Goo Mine
A runic version of the Goo Mine.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
They're reactionless, it's a Newton's 3rd law violation. RBs work the same way, it's not really a rocket since rockets are propelled by Newton's 3rd.

It's like standing on a hand grenade and using that to jump better. The explosion is what propels you. The ground experiences no force from the RB
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I think they're both reactionless and offset?

My understanding of blast rings is that the seal is on the inside of the ring, touching his finger, but that the directed explosion starts outside of the ring, offset by at least a short distance. If it started from the seal itself, the explosion would destroy the ring. Which I was using as weak evidence that we could possibly offset the explosion from a rune. But you're right that as long as the explosive is directional you don't need to care about offset.
 
ting said:
I think they're both reactionless and offset?

My understanding of blast rings is that the seal is on the inside of the ring, touching his finger, but that the directed explosion starts outside of the ring, offset by at least a short distance. If it started from the seal itself, the explosion would destroy the ring. Which I was using as weak evidence that we could possibly offset the explosion from a rune. But you're right that as long as the explosive is directional you don't need to care about offset.
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Yeah I think it might be offset a little. Otherwise he'd blow his finger off while activating the seal.

@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien is that right? How does the ring box work exactly in practice?
 
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Paperclipped said:
"Ah, you must have caught it from the old priests' language," Hagoromo said. "It's quite a niche thing that we learn to better understand the ancient records. There's a lot of unusual words there, so I'm not sure why you latched onto that one, but it is an important one.
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Hmmm. We are going to want to learn the basics of the language before we raid the Crimsom Island dungeon.
 
_The_Bomb said:
CR seems to be a prerequisite for some of the more interesting worldbuilding (and maybe even unlocking jōnin aura) that we haven't been able to explore yet. Also it's been strongly hinted at by the QMs in thread and by Cannai in story that raising the stat would be a "Good Thing" (the capital G and capital T come directly from the Cannai quote).
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_The_Bomb said:
It's been strongly implied that increasing our chakra reserves would be a "Good Thing" by Cannai and EagleJarl, not to mention that our mom said it would be nessesary for jōnin auras.
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@faflec et al, may I have your assistance?

I'm trying to find the source of these three things and I'm having absolutely no luck.


EDIT: Was this the mom quote? Seems like it, but maybe it could have been something from Mari…

Velorien said:
"One more thing," Hazō said as he was about to turn away, "is there anything you can tell me about jōnin auras? I hate the way I have no defence when Mori does hers."

"Jōnin auras?" Mum asked with a smile. "They have a word for that now? I remember the days when people took the time to categorise things. But what you're talking about, in my opinion, is force of will multiplied by chakra. Chakra's the connection between your mind and the outside world. Exerting your will on it is like casting a genjutsu on reality. Reality doesn't particularly care, but if you're in the area of effect, you most certainly do. Except of course that you can't dispel something that's everywhere rather than just inside your brain."

It was very different from Jiraiya's version, but it also failed to account for what Keiko was doing. Keiko didn't have that much chakra, not on a jōnin scale. Noburi had a crazy amount, but you didn't see him intimidating people with his very presence, or doing whatever the Noburi-opposite of intimidation would be (on reflection, in some ways Hazō's siblings were eerily balanced).

"And defence?" he asked.

"Well, there's the classic defensive technique known to every jōnin, or more precisely everyone who lives long enough to become a jōnin. Works on nearly everything."

Hazō thought about it for a second. "Don't be there."

"That's right. Other than that, it's focus. If you can't beat somebody's diffused will with your own, then you have to go the other way and focus on a single thing as hard as possible, like clinging to a rock in a storm. 'I have to get through this because my beloved mother is waiting for me at home', for example, or 'I can't let myself die until I've had my revenge'. Of course, you're still trying to beat a jōnin, so it's a last resort at best. But if, say, you're so terrified that you're about to slit your own throat, and you have one moment of lucidity in which to try to resist until backup gets there, this is what I'd use."

"One moment of lucidity," Hazō repeated. There was bound to be one while talking to Mori, wasn't there? Somewhere? At some point?
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EDIT 2: Found Cannai telling us to that raising our CR would be a Good Thing. The context is thoroughly unrelated to jōnin auras, but it's worth asking Cannai his thoughts on us raising CR sometime soon.

eaglejarl said:
Cannai is disappointed and grumpy but recognizes that it's the best that can be done given the limitations of his Summoner. He has hinted that improving your chakra reserves would be a Good Thing.
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I'm still looking for EJ hinting that we should raise CR in thread.
 
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I feel bad about criticizing art when it is so much better than anything I could ever produce, but those bolted-ons on Akane weird me out something fierce.
 
I have committed to voting for Hazo to hug Orochimaru next cycle. I have received diplomatic immunity from bad consequences as a result of this vote. I will only vote for action plans that include this action.
 
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