How does your model, or your interpretation of it, differ from the above?
I'll be honest: I'm not nearly invested enough in the rune idea to get into further conversation about it. Without a WOG/Ruling to countermand the previous one, I just don't think it's worth the spoon investment. Suffice to say that...
  • Chakra Runes are the highest research priority I have right now, irrespective of the difficulty check results of a hypothetical Anti-Memory Transfer Rune.
  • Without a WOG to state otherwise, I am deeply skeptical that an Anti-Memory Transfer Rune is viable without a sufficient grounding in genjutsu.
  • I am unconvinced that Mari would be willing to aid in the research of a Anti-Memory Transfer Rune, since the research process necessitates failed prototypes, and that each of these failed prototypes would result in Mari paying the full, brain damaging results of TLitF.
  • I am unconvinced that such a Rune would be worth the research time, since TLitF's memory deletion is of questionable use during physical combat, whereas its stunlock feature (which can be utilized without paying the cost of TLitF) is of great use during physical combat.
  • I see niche uses for such a rune, and I am willing to spend a difficulty check on such a Rune, but its research priority would be very conditional (upon discovering a research method that would prevent Mari from paying the TLitF cost during the prototype stage). Even then, it would still be a very low priority research project for me --far below Chakra Runes, TR200s, KISS, and other such projects.

Mainly, though, I think that any discussion about it is pointless, since the QMs already have a Ruling on it. We might as well discuss what hypothetical buff stacking we'd achieve if Combo Stunts weren't a thing.
 
Just non-level-dependent. The beta timeline is not mechanically faithful to the alpha timeline, because this arc has instilled a deep hatred of sealing research in me it's meant to be an interlude series for when I don't have spoons for the current action plan, not for when I want to put in the same amount of work but without progressing the main narrative.
So he's kept his personal growth and maturity, but when the dice start rolling he's still a baby genin ? Eh, that's not bad I suppose. The fact that we don't usually do social rolls within the party is definitely helping him out, here.

If he has everything non-level-dependent on his character sheet... That's huge in the medium term (SSA!) but the time needed to relearn Sealing still means that doing social stuff to recover scroll and establish trades is still better in the short-term than going full ivory tower as a genin.

More generally, I don't think anyone expects your fun interludes to have precise calendar dates or research rolls. You can fudge everything and fool us every time ;)
 
I'll be honest: I'm not nearly invested enough in the rune idea to get into further conversation about it. Without a WOG/Ruling to countermand the previous one, I just don't think it's worth the spoon investment. Suffice to say that...
  • Chakra Runes are the highest research priority I have right now, irrespective of the difficulty check results of a hypothetical Anti-Memory Transfer Rune.
  • Without a WOG to state otherwise, I am deeply skeptical that an Anti-Memory Transfer Rune is viable without a sufficient grounding in genjutsu.
  • I am unconvinced that Mari would be willing to aid in the research of a Anti-Memory Transfer Rune, since the research process necessitates failed prototypes, and that each of these failed prototypes would result in Mari paying the full, brain damaging results of TLitF.
  • I am unconvinced that such a Rune would be worth the research time, since TLitF's memory deletion is of questionable use during physical combat, whereas its stunlock feature (which can be utilized without paying the cost of TLitF) is of great use during physical combat.
  • I see niche uses for such a rune, and I am willing to spend a difficulty check on such a Rune, but its research priority would be very conditional (upon discovering a research method that would prevent Mari from paying the TLitF cost during the prototype stage). Even then, it would still be a very low priority research project for me --far below Chakra Runes, TR200s, KISS, and other such projects.

Mainly, though, I think that any discussion about it is pointless, since the QMs already have a Ruling on it. We might as well discuss what hypothetical buff stacking we'd achieve if Combo Stunts weren't a thing.
Oh, I don't particularly care about it either - it's not about this rune in particular, it's about the mechanism of operation of Shadow Clone, which is in general an important thing to understand. I'm not arguing that we should actually try this. That said:
I am unconvinced that Mari would be willing to aid in the research of a Anti-Memory Transfer Rune, since the research process necessitates failed prototypes, and that each of these failed prototypes would result in Mari paying the full, brain damaging results of TLitF.
We wouldn't need Mari to test it under the block-SC-memory-transfer paradigm; we could just have any SC caster test it, including ourselves. Success is "memory fails to return to the user". Only once we had a complete rune that met that standard would we need Mari to test whether it also blocked the effect of TLitF, and even if for some reason it didn't she'd only pay the cost once.

Mainly, though, I think that any discussion about it is pointless, since the QMs already have a Ruling on it. We might as well discuss what hypothetical buff stacking we'd achieve if Combo Stunts weren't a thing.
This is missing the point. The QMs had a ruling (which I couldn't find, by the way, but I also remember it existing) that mind-affecting runes would probably require learning genjutsu to create. The entire point I've been trying to argue is that a rune blocking memory transfer from Shadow Clones might not have to be a mind-affecting rune, since it could act at the level of the technique before it interfaces with the mind.


If he has everything non-level-dependent on his character sheet... That's huge in the medium term (SSA!) but the time needed to relearn Sealing still means that doing social stuff to recover scroll and establish trades is still better in the short-term than going full ivory tower as a genin.
It was explicitly mentioned that he'd lost his Iron Nerve memory and therefore presumably also SSA.
Not that it was all about Mari. Hazō hadn't realised until the beta timeline how emotionally dependent he'd been on his family, how the bold, visionary clan head had only existed because just being surrounded by his loved ones was enough to satisfy needs he didn't even know about. He'd left far more of himself behind than his Iron Nerve data stores, and if he didn't give himself time to build these sincere, vulnerable bonds with the others that he could only build as Gōketsu Hazō, the loneliness might consume him before the Dragons ever got a chance.
What was meant was something more like "non-character-sheet-dependent", I think (though I do wonder if he kept his TYS, so that when he reacquires SSA he'll be able to start at the full +24 bonus). He presumably kept his Aspects, though.

... Ooh. If he did keep his TYS, did he also keep Forged in Fire? He can rebuy it if not, but ... might be interesting.
 
Just non-level-dependent. The beta timeline is not mechanically faithful to the alpha timeline, because this arc has instilled a deep hatred of sealing research in me it's meant to be an interlude series for when I don't have spoons for the current action plan, not for when I want to put in the same amount of work but without progressing the main narrative.
[X] Set the Grue onto research
 
Oh, I don't particularly care about it either - it's not about this rune in particular, it's about the mechanism of operation of Shadow Clone, which is in general an important thing to understand.
Eh, unless we're actually going to do anything with said understanding, and do something that's worth the time investment, then I'd rather dedicate our time to projects with a useful end goal (see: chakra runes, tr200s, KISS, etc).
 
Chapter 681: Runes: Icarus, Kamikaze (aka Superchiller), Iron Earth, Kagome's Tears, Let's Fuck With Sealmasters New
Icarus Rune mechanics from Chapter 681 have been added:
Hazō completes the Icarus Rune! Mechanics: This rune prevents the formation of Air Domes (including skywalkers) in a wide radius. Hazō suspects it may inhibit other forms of hardened-air-chakra-constructs (such as the tendrils in the skywalker sealing failure, certain Wind ninjutsu such as Whirlwind Barrier, etc).

Like with explosive runes, this rune can be infused with a variable amount of power, making a larger rune with a larger denial-radius.
  • 5 points of substrate: AoE = 1 kilometer across.
  • 25 points of substrate: AoE = 5 kilometers across.
  • 125 points of substrate: AoE = 25 kilometers across.

Difficulty checks from Chapter 681 have been added:
Prep Kamikaze Rune. Difficulty Result: This is the Superchiller rune, not a variant. Hazō's prep day of the Superchiller rune included that it would be hardened against heavy winds and cold – he knew about and expected the EM-nuke conditions would happen, and accounted for it in his rune-design process. Difficulty Result, same as previously stated for Superchiller: Easy.
Prep Iron Earth Rune. Difficulty Result: Hazō thinks exerting a full 5SB-style freeze on a massive volume would be pretty hard, and instead preps a milder version that merely makes all earth in reach have massively increased inertia, runic-drag style, which wouldn't completely prevent tunneling, but would make it prohibitively slow. In this context 'tunneling' would include anything that causes the earth to move, including shovels, HLAM, Earthshaping, Bones of Creation, and Tunnel Excavation. Anything that made material simply disintegrate would probably not be affected, but Hazō is not aware of any jutsu that does that. Difficulty Result: Easy.
Prep Kagome's Tears Rune. Difficulty Result: Easy.
Prep Chakra Shredder Pulse Rune. Difficulty Result: Medium.
Prep Let's Fuck With Sealmasters Rune. Difficulty Result: Hard. After working on this for a day, Hazou thinks that inhibiting activation might be easier than forcing activation, and forcing sealmasters to pay large amounts of chakra to activate their seals would have the similar effect of nullifying their main advantage. He doesn't know for certain though, and the idea would need a prep day.
(I thought these rune ideas were excellent and enjoyable to work on -- however, QM spoons on difficulty checks have been low and finalizing these results seemed lower priority than processing the actual research rolls and such, which is why they took so long)

Storm Rune and Rift-Opening Rune mechanics (from Chapter 687) have been changed from tentative to final. No mechanical changes. See the rules doc for the up-to-date versions.

Air-Leadening Rune mechanics (from Chapter 688) have been added:
Hazō completes the Air-Leadening Rune! Mechanics: Over the course of thirty seconds, increases the air's "stiffness" in the area-of-effect, with a number of effects:
  • Scents propagate 1/10th as far as they normally would.
  • Sounds attenuate three times as fast.
  • Wind speed is reduced to 1/10th its normal rate.
  • People and animals have difficulty breathing, increasing breath and heart rates.
  • Extended physical exertion is nearly impossible. Ninja can't maintain a 20mph running speed.
  • In combat, ninja suffer a -AB to Athletics (penalty scales with level as the faster you move, the more air you need to push through) and take -1 shift on all Sprints.
    • Ninja with active Wind movement ninjutsu negate this downside, as Wind ninjutsu tend to shape the air around the user.
    • Additional penalties will be applied to extended combats at QM's discretion.
In-universe, this rune is similar to an inverted Icarus Rune: this rune forcibly increases air's "hardness", while the Icarus rune prevents this effect from happening. Hazō is not certain what would happen if an Air-Leadening rune and an Icarus rune overlapped their areas-of-effect. He does not want to find out because he thinks the answer could be… exciting.

Like with explosive runes, this rune can be infused with a variable amount of power, making a larger rune with a larger area-of-effect.
  • 5 points of substrate: AoE = 1 kilometer across.
  • 25 points of substrate: AoE = 5 kilometers across.
  • 125 points of substrate: AoE = 25 kilometers across.

Lastly: Please do not vote for things like "[X] Interlude: Finalize Rune Mechanics". This is not an interlude, and it is also not something you can vote for even in principle, given that mechanics work happens on a different schedule than writing. At best, this irritates the QMs.

It's still fine to make a well-organized post and ping us saying "These are the highest-priority outstanding things we need. Can we get them soon so we can plan?" However, please don't use the voting system for this.
 
Eh, unless we're actually going to do anything with said understanding, and do something that's worth the time investment, then I'd rather dedicate our time to projects with a useful end goal (see: chakra runes, tr200s, KISS, etc).
We could have our SCs infuse Minatoseals in their chakra systems that keep them stable indefinitely and prevent them from passing their memories to us, thus allowing us to create an infinite army of Hazōs? (Only mostly joking, here.)

Lastly: Please do not vote for things like "[X] Interlude: Finalize Rune Mechanics". This is not an interlude, and it is also not something you can vote for even in principle, given that mechanics work happens on a different schedule than writing. At best, this irritates the QMs.
Is "[X] Interlude: Research Results" also covered under this, or is that fine given that times we'd be doing this probably have enough research to write an interlude about and that research rolls against known TNs happen more quickly than deciding TNs?

125 points of substrate: AoE = 25 kilometers across.
125 points of substrate: AoE = 25 kilometers across.
!!!

Okay. These sound ... really, really potent. 12.5 kilometre radius in which extended running is impossible or in which skywalking breaks down; Air Leadening in particular sounds potentially really useful for pinning targets in place while we shoot them with RERs from two kilometres away.

Prep Kagome's Tears Rune. Difficulty Result: Easy.
Prep Chakra Shredder Pulse Rune. Difficulty Result: Medium.
Fun! Pity we don't have time to research the Konan countermeasure, but at least we can get out Kagome's Tears fast if we need to.
 
@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @Paperclipped

Can we get finalized versions of the Iron Earth Rune? I've included a copy of my previous effortpost, down below (I know that merely linking to things provides an extra step, and thus, an extra spoon cost).

Hopefully it gets the gears churning, and provides something to build off of!


A Proposal for Adjusted Iron Earth Mechanics​


Background

  • Intended Scope of Research

    • The original research description (quoted down below for the sake of convenience) had Hazou attempting to make a seal that froze "all the soil and stone" within "a large area of effect," with the end result being that the rune would straight-up "prevent tunneling or digging ninjutsu, and other techniques that move existing earth."
    • The ratio of words within the description given to the rune's AoE versus the effect implies that Hazou gave more focus to the effect than the Rune's range.
      • Doubly so if we take into account the stronger word choice assigned to the effect ("frozen," "dramatically," "denser," "tougher," etc) compared to the verbiage assigned to the rune's AoE (merely "large").
      • Thus, the main thrust of his research seems to be achieving the perfect "frozen earth" state, wherein the ground resists Earth-ninjutsu based manipulation.

  • Established Narrative Worldbuilding

    • Once infused, Runes are incredibly hard to move, to the point of being nearly immobile
    • Jiraiya's own research for the Leadening Seal shows that it is easier to make something heavy (as we're doing with Iron Earth Rune) than it is to make something lighter, and that this truth persists within modern paper sealing.
      • (NB: perhaps this is partially why no "true flight" seals were ever invented?)
    • Since Runes are far more powerful in their effects than paper seals, it should be reasonable to assume that a Rune that seeks to Block earth-based ninjutsu effects by, in part, "leadening" the ground should easily be able to achieve the desired effect with aplomb --or, perhaps even overachieve.

  • Established Runic Mechanics

    • All Runes have a wide AoE by default, and Hazou-pilot has personally experienced that trying to shrink down a Rune's default-large AoE causes the Rune's research difficulty to increase. Thus, it would be reasonable to say that Hazou didn't factor in range at all during his research. Knowing what he does about runecrafting's fundamental ranges, he would be safe in assuming that any researched rune would simply have a "large" AoE by default.
    • If this is too far a stretch (admittedly, the research description does, indeed, include a segment about ensuring the AoE is "large"), then perhaps Hazou only gave the Iron Earth's range/AoE a cursory boost before moving on, and dedicating the vast majority of his efforts toward making the effect of the Rune as strong as possible (after all, the goal was to make the ground completely immutable to ninjutsu).

  • Personal, Subjective Vibes (Experiences May Vary)

    • Runecrafting has been shown to be Extremely Potent, with Hazou-pilot making a pilot-and-Kei-described city-killer (in the form of the Storm Rune) by accident. When compared to that, it feels as though the current mechanics of Iron Earth feel a little... underwhelming? Or, perhaps, incongruous with what has been achieved in other areas of Runecrafting.
    • The description of "a standard Block against your base Research Stat" seems more aligned with the minimal power/hyper-efficient paper sealing than the power-intensive, hyper-strong capabilities of Runes.
      • the description seems more aligned the Leadening seal (Sealing v Physique) or the Fire Blocking seal (Sealing v Ninjutsu Stat).

Proposed Mechanics to Build, Twist, or Reject

  • Summary of Options

    • A boosted TN throughout the entirety of the rune's AOE (2*Runecrafting level, or perhaps 1.5*Runecrafting)
    • A boosted TN closer to the Rune (same zone + adjacent zones), while maintaining the previous TN outside of this range, up to ~1km
    • Weakening the Block's TN when the enemy rolls Physique by a fractional amount in order to boost the Block's TN when facing ninjutsu
      • If the TN for an enemy's Physique were to be cut down to approx. (1/2)*Runecrafting, then it maintains narrative cohesion, in that Hazou was able to physically pull the sand out off of the ground (using Physique?).
    • Reducing down the AoE to ~0.5km
    • Maintaining the timeladder effect, while also increasing the chakra cost of such ninjutsu

  • Examples Made

    • The ninjutsu is rolled against 2*Runecrafting level in the Same Zone as the Rune, and any immediately adjacent Zones. Outside of this range, the ninjutsu in question must roll against 1.5*Runecrafting level (up to a range of ~1km). Each shift of failure causes the tunneling to take 1 step down the timeladder longer.
      • a simple tweak, with the general TN being raised, and the TN being raised even more if you're quite close to the Rune, itself.
      • Maintains the range of a Kilometer.
      • Maintains the timeladder effect.
    • The ninjutsu is rolled against 2*Runecrafting level throughout the AoE of the Rune (~1km). Each shift of failure causes the tunneling to take 1 step down the timeladder longer. Primarily affects ninjutsu. Tunneling by hand (roll v Physique) is Blocked by a fractional amount (tbd).
      • General buff to the TN
      • Maintains Range
      • Maintains timeladder effect
      • Physique is only partially blocked, since the intended research was, primarily, to block ninjutsu effects. The increased durability of the Earth would still result in a Block being placed, but not one as focused as the Runic Block on the ground being displaced by ninjutsu, specifically.
        • Suggested fractional amount would be (2/3)*Runecrafting, but if this Physique Block is reduced down to (1/2)*Runecrafting level, then it would align with the shown-narrative that Hazou (with his high-30s physique stat) was able to slowly pull some sand from the ground by hand after infusing the Iron Earth Rune for the first time.

Iron Earth Rune
all soil and stone within a large area of effect is frozen in place, and made dramatically more durable. This effect is similar to how air domes affect air, but benefits from the denser and more solid base material to end up it be much tougher than an air dome.
This effect also prevents tunneling or digging jutsu, and other techniques that moves existing earth.

Hazō completes the Iron Earth Rune! TENTATIVE mechanics*: Anyone tunneling within around a kilometer needs to roll their tunneling technique (or Physique, if working by hand) against the user's Runecrafting. Each shift of failure causes the tunneling to take 1 step down the timeladder longer.

RUNE MECHANICS MARKED AS "TENTATIVE" ARE PRETTY LIKELY TO CHANGE WHEN WE GET A CHANCE TO DISCUSS THEM. DON'T BET STRONGLY ON THESE MECHANICS BEING WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET.
 
Does this mean that the concerns of the Superchiller Rune causing a runic failure by getting destroyed by the hypertornado don't make sense? The intended use for that rune is to cause an EM nuke effect. So it getting accidentally destroyed by the effect it creates would be a failure under "ordinary" circumstances (for that rune).
The intended effect for the Superchiller rune is to cool the air in a large area. The EM nuke part is a convenient side effect that is not related to the rune itself. It is, however, possible to research a seal so that it can be destroyed without failure risk by specific effects, as with implosion seals. This will increase the difficulty.
Prep Kamikaze Rune. Difficulty Result: This is the Superchiller rune, not a variant. Hazō's prep day of the Superchiller rune included that it would be hardened against heavy winds and cold – he knew about and expected the EM-nuke conditions would happen, and accounted for it in his rune-design process. Difficulty Result, same as previously stated for Superchiller: Easy

Pinging also @Paperclipped

Would you guys mind clearing up the apparently contradictory statements made in Vel's post and EJ's post?
 
Storm Rune + Air-Leadening has real potential. The main risk is that they'll reverse-summon the moment they detect the effect of the Air-Leadener, I suppose.
 
Storm Rune + Air-Leadening has real potential. The main risk is that they'll reverse-summon the moment they detect the effect of the Air-Leadener, I suppose.
Reverse summoning gives your enemy a chance to fill your return point with meters of solid rock so you instantly die upon returning to the human path. Hazo has Earth jutsu. In essence, if we force Kisame or Itachi to reverse summon, we win. Either they die anyway or they can never go back to the human world a la Mareo.
 
EDIT: This is a strange question but how much can a chakra-enhanced Hazou deadlift? If he can pick the blanks up he can shape them on the Seventh Path and Unsummon holding them.

125 pt blank - 312.5 kg (689 lbs) natty powerlifters can do this so he should be good IMO
625 pt blank - 1562.5 kg (3445 lbs) this is about 3.5x more than the strongest non-chakra enhanced (they do steroids) humans can do. It is plausible that Hazou can do this but not certain by any means
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

I saw that half of this got answered today. Just asking about this part, since if we can Unsummon holding 125pt and 625pt blanks the Rift Assualt strategy is vastly different than if we have to ES everything in place.
 
Research results!
Hazō completes the Icarus Rune! Mechanics: This rune prevents the formation of Air Domes (including skywalkers) in a wide radius. Hazō suspects it may inhibit other forms of hardened-air-chakra-constructs (such as the tendrils in the skywalker sealing failure, certain Wind ninjutsu such as Whirlwind Barrier, etc).

Like with explosive runes, this rune can be infused with a variable amount of power, making a larger rune with a larger denial-radius.
  • 5 points of substrate: AoE = 1 kilometer across.
  • 25 points of substrate: AoE = 5 kilometers across.
  • 125 points of substrate: AoE = 25 kilometers across.
Hazō completes the Air-Leadening Rune! Mechanics: Over the course of thirty seconds, increases the air's "stiffness" in the area-of-effect, with a number of effects:
  • Scents propagate 1/10th as far as they normally would.
  • Sounds attenuate three times as fast.
  • Wind speed is reduced to 1/10th its normal rate.
  • People and animals have difficulty breathing, increasing breath and heart rates.
  • Extended physical exertion is nearly impossible. Ninja can't maintain a 20mph running speed.
  • In combat, ninja suffer a -AB to Athletics (penalty scales with level as the faster you move, the more air you need to push through) and take -1 shift on all Sprints.
    • Ninja with active Wind movement ninjutsu negate this downside, as Wind ninjutsu tend to shape the air around the user.
    • Additional penalties will be applied to extended combats at QM's discretion.
In-universe, this rune is similar to an inverted Icarus Rune: this rune forcibly increases air's "hardness", while the Icarus rune prevents this effect from happening. Hazō is not certain what would happen if an Air-Leadening rune and an Icarus rune overlapped their areas-of-effect. He does not want to find out because he thinks the answer could be… exciting.

Like with explosive runes, this rune can be infused with a variable amount of power, making a larger rune with a larger area-of-effect.
  • 5 points of substrate: AoE = 1 kilometer across.
  • 25 points of substrate: AoE = 5 kilometers across.
  • 125 points of substrate: AoE = 25 kilometers across.
Hot damn! It didn't know runes could have AoEs that big, I assumed RER2.0's 2km range was pushing the edge of chakra diffusion feasibility astonishingly far.

Prep Chakra Shredder Pulse Rune. Difficulty Result: Medium.
Dang, I wish we'd gotten this much earlier, we really need a Konan countermeasure.

Probably not worth researching after this arc/if Konan dies, because it messes with our SC/summons to.
Still, it does seem like a promising area. Maybe with a few unaffected "eye of the storm" zones at the centre it would get a lot better for us.

Prep Kagome's Tears Rune. Difficulty Result: Easy.
Called it. The naysayers told me it was impossible, that Air Dome+Force Dome+Iron Earth was the way to go, but I dared to believe in the possible!

That said, FD+IE has plenty of other upsides, and by the time we difficulty checked Kagome's tears, it was just as fast to just do Iron Earth and finish our existing strategy. The QM backlog/delay didn't hurt us here, but the real loss was not prepping KT way earlier.

Prep Let's Fuck With Sealmasters Rune. Difficulty Result: Hard. After working on this for a day, Hazou thinks that inhibiting activation might be easier than forcing activation, and forcing sealmasters to pay large amounts of chakra to activate their seals would have the similar effect of nullifying their main advantage. He doesn't know for certain though, and the idea would need a prep day.
Dang, seal activation-suppression would have been sweet for the upcoming fight.

It might eventually be worth off-tracking a chain of Let's-Suppress-Seals -> Let's-Supress-Seals-That-Aren't-Ours, but that's really low priority and will depend on our circumstances.
 
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Storm Rune + Air-Leadening has real potential. The main risk is that they'll reverse-summon the moment they detect the effect of the Air-Leadener, I suppose.
Couple issues: we don't want to demonstrate city killers, Storm runes are low-saturation enough that a normal ninja can probably evacuate without getting hit so I assume an Essie with a one zone penalty can as well, the rift site is fortified in ways that probably include a strong roof, and if we can get close enough to set up Storm Rune, we can just use RER2.0.
 
Reverse summoning gives your enemy a chance to fill your return point with meters of solid rock so you instantly die upon returning to the human path. Hazo has Earth jutsu. In essence, if we force Kisame or Itachi to reverse summon, we win. Either they die anyway or they can never go back to the human world a la Mareo.
I would be careful about assuming this. Unlike Mareo, Itachi and Kisame are both S-rankers; they are more than capable of finding a Summoner and bribing (with e.g. S-rank jutsu) and/or threatening (e.g. with destruction wreaked upon their summon clan, subject to Boss interference) them into untrapping their unsummon point. Apart from anything else, if we trap either Itachi or Kisame on the Seventh Path, they will eventually decide to just show up at a trade site and wait for someone we care about to drop in. It delays them long enough for us to steal the Rift, but it's not by any means a victory.

Probably not worth researching after this arc/if Konan dies, because it messes with our SC/summons to.
Still, it does seem like a promising area. Maybe with a few unaffected "eye of the storm" zones at the centre it would get a lot better for us.
Four words: Remote Chakra Shredder Pulse.
 
Couple issues: we don't want to demonstrate city killers, Storm runes are low-saturation enough that a normal ninja can probably evacuate without getting hit so I assume an Essie with a one zone penalty can as well, the rift site is fortified in ways that probably include a strong roof, and if we can get close enough to set up Storm Rune, we can just use RER2.0.
What if we set up a Storm Rune underneath the fortress, so it breaches through the floor and fills the interior with a denser-than-default (due to bouncing off walls) barrage of lightning, then hit the exits with RERs as they try to flee?
 
What if we set up a Storm Rune underneath the fortress, so it breaches through the floor and fills the interior with a denser-than-default (due to bouncing off walls) barrage of lightning, then hit the exits with RERs as they try to flee?
Not how it works, sadly.
The lightning quickly peters out once below the level of the rune, so the rune can't be effectively used to bombard an area from high ground or a skytower. The lightning needs room to leave the rune from above, so the rune also can't be effectively used from deep underground unless a shaft is made.
Possibly the lightning shaft might breach the floor as you describe if we put it right underneath the fortress, but that seems like asking to be caught by sensory techniques.
 
Do these mechanics include reduction of power of explosive blast waves & EM nuke & banshee style attacks?
No.

I saw that half of this got answered today. Just asking about this part, since if we can Unsummon holding 125pt and 625pt blanks the Rift Assualt strategy is vastly different than if we have to ES everything in place.
All three of us feel that we've answered this before but we aren't sure what the answer was. We may have said that you can bring your own weight or that you can bring as much as you can pick up.

@faflec , can you help us out?

Dang, I wish we'd gotten this much earlier, we really need a Konan countermeasure.
I too wish that the QM team didn't have to deal with the various things that have been stressing us out and rendering it difficult to get stuff done.
 
All three of us feel that we've answered this before but we aren't sure what the answer was. We may have said that you can bring your own weight or that you can bring as much as you can pick up.

@faflec , can you help us out?
This is not necessarily the answer to your question but is instead the first thing that came to mind on the topic:
You can certainly use SCs to train on the Seventh Path without issue at all times except on seal infusion days, where things become more complicated. As for research and SSA…


First, an implicit assumption that we haven't ruled on but is required for answering any of these questions to make sense: can prep days be done off-site?

Answer: Yes, prep days can be done away from the site of infusion, despite the extensive use of sealing facilities and implied importance of precise astrological measurements. However, at least 'a few hours' of work on infusion day must be done on-site.


This works.

When Hazou makes his clone on the Human Path, he (and the clone) have memories of crafting both runes. It will take some time (maybe 'an hour' or 'a few hours') for them to unjumble their memories and recheck their preparation, but the bottom line is that they'll be able to do both infusions in one day with no penalty. Just don't expect to be able to cram anything else into the same day.

There's an asterisk here – the clone presumably could have used SSA extensively during their preparation and crafting of the rune blank, and the associated mental trauma should be hitting Hazou Prime at the intermediary phase when the clone pops. However, since Hazou has not yet derived any benefit from SSA, we're tentatively ruling that we'll handwave the SSA Consequence until the actual infusion is done (so Hazou can do both infusions with no penalty, then will have two SSA consequences once the clone pops).


This works.

Hazou works on Rune A, clone preps Rune B. Hazou can craft and infuse Rune A normally, and the next day, will benefit from a +2 bonus to Rune B from the prep day.


This does not work.

On days 1-3, Hazou preps for the rune, reaching his maximum. On day 4, he does an extra, useless "prep day", then crafts the rune. On day 5, he cannot infuse the rune, since the infusion needs to be done on the same day as the research crafting.

There are two different times when a sealmaster would infuse a blank, runic or paper.
  1. When the blank is for a seal he has previously researched
  2. When he is in the process of researching it
If he has already learned the seal then he can make blanks and infuse them whenever he likes, even days or years later.

If he is doing research then the prep days, the crafting, and the infusion must be contiguous. That means:
  1. The normal scenario: Days 1-3 you do prep, day 4 you craft and infuse the blank. You get +6 on your crafting and infusion rolls.
  2. Days 1-3 you do prep, day 4 you take a day off, day 5 you craft and infuse the blank. This is fine, but you get no benefit from the prep.
  3. Days 1-3 you do prep, day 4 you craft the blank, day 5 you take off, day 6 you try to do the infusion but realize that you aren't 100% certain of the prep you did, plus the astrological influences have shifted slightly plus other handwavium has spoiled. That blank will 100% cause a failure if you infuse it, and you know it.
  4. Days 1-3 you do prep, day 4 you craft the blank, day 5 you try to do the infusion and realize that this case is no different from the one above and you will definitely fail the infusion.
  5. Days 1-2 you do prep, day 3 you take off, day 4 you do prep, day 5 you craft and infuse the blank. This is fine, but you only get the benefit of one prep day (+2).

This works.

The first instance of rune research will take ~12 hours. As the required work cannot be done on the Seventh Path, the second instance will take ~12 hours again. Both infusions will benefit from any prep days, and the second infusion will suffer from Hazou's SSA Consequence from the first infusion. We may levy a Mild Physical Consequence for overwork, but as you mentioned, due to SSA recovery, this is not very important.

Saying the above but in more detail:
  1. Day 1-3: Hazō does prep on the Light Blaster rune. One of Hazō's Shadow Clones does prep on the Conjure Ice Cream rune. All of this happens on the Seventh Path.
  2. Day 4:
    1. Hazō unsummons to the Human Path. He spends 12 hours researching the LB rune. This consists of "a few hours" crafting, an hour infusing the LB rune, and some extra time doing other research-related activities.
      1. This requires timeladdering up the crafting roll and therefore taking a -AB penalty on it.
      2. He spent the full time on the infusion roll so he still receives his normal total.
      3. He receives prep day bonuses on both rolls.
      4. After the rolls are finished, he takes an SSA Consequence.
    2. He returns to the Seventh Path, refills from Noburi, returns to the Human Path, and spends another 12 hours researching the CIC rune.
      1. This works exactly as described above except now he has an additional -½ AB on both the crafting and infusion rolls due to his SSA Consequence.
      2. After the rolls are finished, he acquires a second SSA Consequence.


This does not work.

It is a matter of GM taste to decide how much seal/rune research can be broken up without it becoming harmful to the sealing research. We're tentatively ruling that the break of "a few hours" is too much here. Also, recall that at least "a few hours" of the research work must be done on-site.


Neither 3 nor 5 worked, so neither will work when the runes become logistically more challenging. Of course, scenario 4 works with two large runes.


This does not work.

As mentioned in scenario 5, seal/rune research shouldn't be broken up too much, and the various preparatory steps plus the hour-long infusion will be unviable.

However, it does work for Hazou to craft a rune on the Human Path, go to the Seventh Path for a few seconds/minutes to refill, return to the Human Path to infuse, go to the Seventh Path to refill, return to the Human Path to craft again, go to the Seventh Path to refill, then finally return for a second infusion (analogous to scenario 4).


This does not work.

Clones pop when Prime crosses Paths.
 
I too wish that the QM team didn't have to deal with the various things that have been stressing us out and rendering it difficult to get stuff done.
Sorry. I do suppose any formulation of saying that ends up implicitly taking a shot shot at y'all, even if it wasn't what I was going for.

You all go mad hard on this quest, it's kind of mind-boggling. I'm thankful for and impressed by what you do.
It really sucks that reality hasn't been more kindly.



I think approximately body weight is what we were told, as we were considering using reverse summoning during WW4 to build a big kinetic weapon
Time for Hazou to EAT.
 
even if for some reason it didn't she'd only pay the cost once.
It amazes me how frequently, and how lightly, the idea comes up of asking your mentor to give herself brain damage so that Hazō can gain some advantage for himself, or even simply do some research.

Is "[X] Interlude: Research Results" also covered under this, or is that fine given that times we'd be doing this probably have enough research to write an interlude about and that research rolls against known TNs happen more quickly than deciding TNs?
Just vote for an interlude, or the traditional "[x] Lore Update" vote that's been in users for years now. Trust me, we are well aware when we have large chunks of mechanics hanging fire.
 
All three of us feel that we've answered this before but we aren't sure what the answer was. We may have said that you can bring your own weight or that you can bring as much as you can pick up.

@faflec , can you help us out
He brought the Dragonbits back from the Seventh Path without using a storage seal, and they were heavy, he had to boost to lift them.

The largest of the scales is taller than Hazō, four inches thick, and the bottom edge is a razor-sharp serrated nightmare.

This weighs several hundred pounds minimum IMO

EDIT: Found the density of the claw, probably approximately the same as that of the scales.
The density is slightly less than iron, approximately 6 g/cm^3.

EDIT2: Assuming conservatively, 175cm tall "taller than Hazou" -- average height of Javanese men is 158 cm, he's taller than average. 100cm wide (most scales are taller than they are wide, this is a reasonable width), 10cm thick (4"), gives us a volume of 175000 cubic centimeters. With a density of 6 g/cm^3 that puts the weight of the scale at 1050kg, a reasonable amount for an iron plate that large.

EDIT3: Found the smoking gun.
As to how they got back to the Human Path -- let's assume that Hazō managed to hoist them up with chakra boost, unsummon himself, and drop them on the ground. There might have been multiple trips involved, one for the scale and one for the claw/claw fragments. And maybe the scale is a bit lighter than the claw because chakra is bullshit and a massive troll.

Seems like perhaps the scale weighs more on the order of 800kg or 900kg, but still something Hazou can explicitly Unsummon with.

Now hear me out for allowing us to go up to 625pt runes (~1400kg). The Remote Explosiver is 625pt. We won't be able to use our biggest booms if we can't lift it. Let Kagome's Ultimate Problem Solving technique solve even Akatsuki.
 
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